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Leegal
Guest
I suggest that Jewish establishments be forced to open on Saturday and the official Sabbath be changed to Sunday. Afterall, it’s in the best interest of the government to have Jews open their businesses on Saturday when many Christians are available to shop, and may spur the economy. :doh2:
I think this is where we are headed.
J
JimG
Guest
Nice parable.
In a free nation with religious liberty, it’s good that Jews can go into a public kosher deli knowing that it will not offer them non-kosher products.
And in a free nation with religious liberty, it’s a good thing that Catholic employers can buy health insurance which will not include products offensive to their religion.
Let’s keep it that way.
In a free nation with religious liberty, it’s good that Jews can go into a public kosher deli knowing that it will not offer them non-kosher products.
And in a free nation with religious liberty, it’s a good thing that Catholic employers can buy health insurance which will not include products offensive to their religion.
Let’s keep it that way.
K
KCT
Guest
I used this analogy several weeks ago in a conversation w/ a friend of my daughter. Her reply was, “Oh sure, let’s compare women’s health to dietary laws.”
I pointed out that both are widely held religious beliefs. Didn’t matter to her. “Free” contraception (as if it will really be ‘free’) was more important.
I pointed out that both are widely held religious beliefs. Didn’t matter to her. “Free” contraception (as if it will really be ‘free’) was more important.
P
PaulinVA
Guest
I thought this parable was very well thought it. It addressed the compromise and the facts that a lot of Catholics actually favor birth control.
To use the analogy of the parable, right now there are just too many people who think this is about ham sandwiches, and citizens’ rights to have ham sandwiches provided free to them by every restaurant in town.
To use the analogy of the parable, right now there are just too many people who think this is about ham sandwiches, and citizens’ rights to have ham sandwiches provided free to them by every restaurant in town.
K
KCT
Guest
I get it. Many do not.
The girl I was ‘chatting’ with couldn’t get past how it would be good for people. The fact that freedom was being trampled on didn’t matter. She also thought the ‘right’ of workers was more important than the right of a business. I pointed out that businesses are run by individuals. Again, that didn’t matter. She saw ‘businesses’ as big, impersonal organizations.
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KCT
Guest
Tried to explain that as well. The idea of ‘free’ contraception seems to trump all.
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L_piperatus
Guest
KCT, I’m not sure that young lady would have listened to you, but another thing we should point out is this: equating contraception/chemical abortion/surgical sterilization with women’s health is a BIG FAT LIE. Quite tragical and it speaks to the lack of intellectual reasoning ability of so many people that they bought this lie. We are not protesting against offering legitimate women’s health services - such as mammograms, Pap smears, treatment of female gynecological conditions (endometriosis, ovarian cysts, etc), or prenatal care for pregnant women and their babies. But to try to re-brand the atrocities of contraception/abortion/sterilization as “women’s health”, that’s medically and intellectually erroneous at the minimum, it’s dishonest and a deliberate fraud at worst, and we will oppose this LIE at every turn.
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L_piperatus
Guest
Quote from the article:
…those proposing the new law claim to hear and understand the concerns of kosher deli owners and offer them a new “accommodation.”
You are free to call yourself a kosher deli; you are free not to place ham sandwiches on your menu; you are free not to be the person to prepare the sandwich and hand it over the counter to the customer.
But we will force your meat supplier to set up a kiosk on your premises and to offer, prepare and serve ham sandwiches to all of your customers free of charge to them. And when you get your monthly bill from your meat supplier, it will include the cost of any of the “free” ham sandwiches that your customers may accept.
And you will, of course, be required to pay that bill.
Some who supported the deli owners initially began to celebrate the fact that ham sandwiches didn’t need to be on the menu and didn’t need to be prepared or served by the deli itself.
But on closer examination, they noticed three troubling things:
First, all kosher delis will still be forced to pay for the ham sandwiches. Second, many of the kosher delis’ meat suppliers themselves are forbidden in conscience from offering, preparing or serving pork to anyone. Third, there are many kosher delis that are their own meat supplier, so the mandate to offer, prepare and serve the ham sandwich still falls on them.
This story has a happy ending: The government recognized that it is absurd for someone to come into a kosher deli and demand a ham sandwich; that it is beyond absurd for that private demand to be backed with the coercive power of the state; that it is downright surreal to apply this coercive power when the customer can get the same sandwich cheaply, or even free, just a few doors down.
Well done, good Bishop!
But the proponents of free ham sandwiches will say that this is not about food, it’s about “women’s health”, because you see, women need to eat healthy, and the availability of healthy food such as pork is so important that it trumps everything.
How could those Orthodox Jews be so insensitive to WOMEN’S HEALTH to deny them healthy ham sandwiches right there on the premises of the Kosher Deli - why force them to go around the city searching for healthy ham sandwiches? I mean, are these Kosher deli owners against WOMEN’S HEALTH!!!
I mean HOW DARE YOU OPPOSE WOMEN’S HEALTH!!! :bigyikes:
I never knew the evil Kosher deli owners were enemies of WOMEN’S HEALTH, but now that I think about it, I think they clearly are!
Let me repeat for clarity’s sake: if you oppose women being served FREE and healthy ham sandwiches right on your premises, you are a monster and a lowlife, you are an ENEMY OF WOMEN’S HEALTH!!!
Down with the evil Kosher deli owners who are the enemies of WOMEN’S HEALTH!!!
You see I could make the same argument about the Kosher deli owners being enemies of men’s health, but that would only cause people to yawn, because NOTHING BEATS WOMEN’S HEALTH!!!
In addition, how dare they take government money (see: poor women paying with food stamps) and then have the gall to limit WOMEN’S CHOICE to those pitiful turkey sandwiches, corned beef sandwiches, and tuna and creem cheese muffins, when in fact everybody knows that ham sandwiches are essential to WOMEN’S HEALTH!!!
…those proposing the new law claim to hear and understand the concerns of kosher deli owners and offer them a new “accommodation.”
You are free to call yourself a kosher deli; you are free not to place ham sandwiches on your menu; you are free not to be the person to prepare the sandwich and hand it over the counter to the customer.
But we will force your meat supplier to set up a kiosk on your premises and to offer, prepare and serve ham sandwiches to all of your customers free of charge to them. And when you get your monthly bill from your meat supplier, it will include the cost of any of the “free” ham sandwiches that your customers may accept.
And you will, of course, be required to pay that bill.
Some who supported the deli owners initially began to celebrate the fact that ham sandwiches didn’t need to be on the menu and didn’t need to be prepared or served by the deli itself.
But on closer examination, they noticed three troubling things:
First, all kosher delis will still be forced to pay for the ham sandwiches. Second, many of the kosher delis’ meat suppliers themselves are forbidden in conscience from offering, preparing or serving pork to anyone. Third, there are many kosher delis that are their own meat supplier, so the mandate to offer, prepare and serve the ham sandwich still falls on them.
This story has a happy ending: The government recognized that it is absurd for someone to come into a kosher deli and demand a ham sandwich; that it is beyond absurd for that private demand to be backed with the coercive power of the state; that it is downright surreal to apply this coercive power when the customer can get the same sandwich cheaply, or even free, just a few doors down.
Well done, good Bishop!
But the proponents of free ham sandwiches will say that this is not about food, it’s about “women’s health”, because you see, women need to eat healthy, and the availability of healthy food such as pork is so important that it trumps everything.
How could those Orthodox Jews be so insensitive to WOMEN’S HEALTH to deny them healthy ham sandwiches right there on the premises of the Kosher Deli - why force them to go around the city searching for healthy ham sandwiches? I mean, are these Kosher deli owners against WOMEN’S HEALTH!!!
I mean HOW DARE YOU OPPOSE WOMEN’S HEALTH!!! :bigyikes:
I never knew the evil Kosher deli owners were enemies of WOMEN’S HEALTH, but now that I think about it, I think they clearly are!
Let me repeat for clarity’s sake: if you oppose women being served FREE and healthy ham sandwiches right on your premises, you are a monster and a lowlife, you are an ENEMY OF WOMEN’S HEALTH!!!
Down with the evil Kosher deli owners who are the enemies of WOMEN’S HEALTH!!!
You see I could make the same argument about the Kosher deli owners being enemies of men’s health, but that would only cause people to yawn, because NOTHING BEATS WOMEN’S HEALTH!!!
In addition, how dare they take government money (see: poor women paying with food stamps) and then have the gall to limit WOMEN’S CHOICE to those pitiful turkey sandwiches, corned beef sandwiches, and tuna and creem cheese muffins, when in fact everybody knows that ham sandwiches are essential to WOMEN’S HEALTH!!!
T
Teelynn
Guest
If this mandate flies, and I am praying my little heart out that it does not, this is just the beginning. Because of the left’s view of “overpopulation” (of which I believe they are so wrong about anyway) I can imagine a whole host of things being thrown at us. Like possibly taxing families with more than one child (or two). And what about end of life issues? I wonder if they’re trying to stir up the “let’s tax the Church” issue again.
I mean really, this is just the beginning of the nightmare.
A
AngelRose81
Guest
This parable was not a good example to compare with the current HHS debate. Why? Gee, maybe because if you get down to it, this will end up not being about religious liberties; therefore, it can’t be compared with a Kosher Deli. Let me explain…
Guess what Catholic Hospitals and many Catholic employers do that a deli doesn’t? They accept government funding as payment on things or funding on things (Medicare, Medicaid, Title I money, help from public schools). In the end, this will boil down to the government saying, “Fine, you can opt out and not continue to offer insurance because you believe that it will harm your religious liberties.” Catholic hospital/employer says, “great! Will do!” Government says, “Oh, but there’s a catch…if you choose this, you’ll be fined and we will pull all government funding and you’ll no longer be able to do …” Catholic hospital/employer “Oh no! We can’t do that! We’ll lose our nurses, doctors, patients, clients, students,teachers etc.! Never mind, we’ll give in.” And if they don’t then they will end up losing just what I said, possibly forcing many to close.
If you don’t think that will happen, you have no clue how government & politics works. Sorry, but if you accept any government funding and you start claiming religious freedom & liberty, they are going to walk all over you and even if you sue and (likely, sometimes) win, you’ll be out a ton of legal fees and you will be hurting. I’m not saying the Church should “wake up” to the 21st Century, and I think the bishops know exactly what will happen in the end. I think that every other Catholic in the U.S. is deceived into thinking that the Church can change the government. And don’t even start believing that a conservative will change it…they will do what the powers that be (aka CONGRESS and other big wigs) tells them to.
Guess what Catholic Hospitals and many Catholic employers do that a deli doesn’t? They accept government funding as payment on things or funding on things (Medicare, Medicaid, Title I money, help from public schools). In the end, this will boil down to the government saying, “Fine, you can opt out and not continue to offer insurance because you believe that it will harm your religious liberties.” Catholic hospital/employer says, “great! Will do!” Government says, “Oh, but there’s a catch…if you choose this, you’ll be fined and we will pull all government funding and you’ll no longer be able to do …” Catholic hospital/employer “Oh no! We can’t do that! We’ll lose our nurses, doctors, patients, clients, students,teachers etc.! Never mind, we’ll give in.” And if they don’t then they will end up losing just what I said, possibly forcing many to close.
If you don’t think that will happen, you have no clue how government & politics works. Sorry, but if you accept any government funding and you start claiming religious freedom & liberty, they are going to walk all over you and even if you sue and (likely, sometimes) win, you’ll be out a ton of legal fees and you will be hurting. I’m not saying the Church should “wake up” to the 21st Century, and I think the bishops know exactly what will happen in the end. I think that every other Catholic in the U.S. is deceived into thinking that the Church can change the government. And don’t even start believing that a conservative will change it…they will do what the powers that be (aka CONGRESS and other big wigs) tells them to.
P
PaulinVA
Guest
Well, I do have a clue and I think you are wrong.
Catholic hospitals do indeed treat medicare patients, and I’m sure that some participate in the federally-funded physician training programs and other such programs. However, they lose money on medicare patients and they can choose not to participate in the other programs. So, they can extricate themselves from federal funding and* thrive*. However, the population the hospital serves will be hurt by this response to federal mandates. We don’t want that.
The Church can indeed spearhead the election of conservative government representatives that will roll back the tide of liberal socialism. American government tends to ebb and flow, go liberal and then conservative, so this is not all or nothing right now.
Oh, and posting that anyone who disagrees with you doesn’t have a clue is rude.
J
JimG
Guest
The mandate applies to all employers whether they accept government funding or not. This issue is not government funding. A Cathoic insurance agency which now provides morally acceptable policies–and receives no government funding–will be required by the mandate to provide coverage for contraception, sterilization, and the morning after pill, even though it has moral objection to providing such policies. It will be forced to reject its Catholicism or go out of business. A private employer who does not wish to provide morally objectionable coverage, and who receives no government funding will likewise be forced to act against his religion, or drop insurance coverage and pay a fine for the practice of his religion.
As for large Catholic hospitals, I’m sure the HHS would like nothing better than to see them cease to be Catholic. In like manner the government has forced some Catholic adoption agencies out of business because they refused to reject their religion.
L
L_piperatus
Guest
Yes. Also, today the government intrudes into the Church’s internal life, tomorrow it will intrude into the citizens’ families and private lives. We are going to end up like China, with forced abortions and sterilizations if we fail to fight back now. VP Joe Biden already said he’s not second-guessing China’s one-child policy.
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