The physics behind resurrection of the body

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After reading this thread, I am confused :confused: re: the state(s) of our being during the time between particular and final judgement. Please can you explain while distinguishing the terms of “soul”, “spiritual body”, “glorified body”, “ressurected body”, and “inseparable body-soul composite”.

It seems to me that
  1. our soul and flesh body are separated at the time of death, which coincides with particular judgement
  2. at the time of final judgement, and for some time prior to this event, our souls will be united with our (non-flesh) body.
…is our soul the same as our “spiritual body”?
I’d answer more fully, but I have to go to Mass. Briefly:
  • our “body” is comprised of flesh, soul, and spirit (of God) (cf. 1 Thess 5:23)
  • our resurrected glorified spiritual body will not be one without flesh, but one where the flesh is totally subject to our souls
  • our resurrected bodies will be of flesh, as Jesus’s was
 
…is our soul the same as our “spiritual body”?
I must confess I find this a tad confusing also.:eek:

My interpretation based on my knowledge of neurological systems is that there is both soul and spirit. I understood my soul to be that conscious part of me that psychology has demonstrated, comes from the complexity of neurological functioning, which may [or may not] cease at death of the brain.

Then there is the spiritual dimension of me about which I know not, but which exists somewhere in or out of space, but which is also an essential part of my identity and which transcends neurological functioning and is not dependent upon it, but exists as a seperate inorganic entity, which survives death of the organic body.

It is my understanding too that my higher neurological functioning sets me apart from the rest of the animal kingdom and it is that which enables me to cry out in travail ‘my God my God have mercy on me, this poor wretch of a creature’ and it is that which enables me to hear our loving Father reply ‘my dear child, I am here always’!
 
I’m actually doing a project on death and have come across this many times. What is meant by a ‘glorified body’?
To tell the truth, everything I know about glorified bodies, I learned from the gospels.
  • Glorified bodies are corporeal – Our Lord invited St Thomas to touch him, and warned Mary Magdalene to not do so.
  • Glorified bodies can still eat.
  • A locked door does not stop a glorified body.
  • A glorified body is not immediately recognizable (Mary Magdelene, the disciples on the road to Emmaus, the apostles in the boat)
tee
 
I have a question about the general resurrection that I was pondering. At the general resurrection, the souls of all the saved are reunited with their bodies, which are raised and assume a perfected state. This is easy for me to imagine in regards to those who have died and been buried. However, what about those who have died and whos bodies have not been preserved but instead have returned to simple atoms and molecules, and that organic matter has become the building blocks in the creation of another human being far in the future. For instance, say I eat a plant that grew from the dirt where an ancient person many millenia past had died and “returned to dust”. In such a case, at the atomic level, I would then share my makeup with someone from ages past. How is this reconciled when we all get our bodies back? Should I just assume that we get our old bodies in a supernatural way that we don’t understand?

-LT

AFAICS, the soul is what guarantees continuity of identity from conception to death; & the material constituents of our bodies are secondary to that, gaining their identity as ours in particular from our souls.​

ISTM that the question presupposes that the resurrection is, or includes, an exchange of material constituents - but that is not resurrection, because resurrection goes beyond anything with which we are familiar in the world; which is why it is a mystery.

As I see it, we tend to act like characters in a novel, and think that resurrection is like becoming characters in a different novel. Whereas, resurrection is more like outgrowing the confines of existence within a novel, & becoming real people in reality instead. Different novels are different - but they are limited in the same way; unlike the reality within which they (& their author) exist. That’s the analogy that helps me, anyway; if it doesn’t help you, ignore it ##
 
Physically, the only parts of our body that actually remain with us for our entire lives are our teeth and the lenses of our eyes.

But still, as has been mentioned, it is MY body, right down to every single scar, birthmark and wrinkle. And I anticipate that is the body I will get at the Resurrection.
 
Just to expand a little on my original question. It seems that since our bodies regenerate constantly, the best candidate for resurrection is the body we have at the moment we die. However, I still have a logical problem. I assume it would be naturally possible (albeit hardly likely) for a person to die and have every single atom could be a part of other people’s natural bodies at the moment of their death. I guess I will just have to accept the mystery and believe that we all get our own flesh back (in a glorified but real state), whatever the ultimate definition of that flesh is.

Oh, Future Prodigy - I would suggest you look into Thomas Aquinas’ writings on these matters. Like I said before, he describes the aspects of our glorified body, organizing them into four distinct categories: subtlety (can penetrate material objects), clarity (radiant & brilliant), agility (can move quickly and easily), and impassibility (free from sickness, sorrow, etc.). If you are serious, perhaps you could narrow your search by focusing on St. Thomas and his Summa.

Thanks all,
LT
 
Would it be desirable to ‘keep’ this mortal body?

I cannot speak for others but of myself [and I imagine others are similar], my memories from this life are largely influenced by my experiences, many of which were traumatic. These memories stay with us. There is no way of erasing them.

We have flashbacks of trauma. We have nightmares, we are super sensitive to certain environmental stimuli. We are constantly looking over our shoulders. We trust no one.

I guess everyone on this thread is like that too.

Do we really wish to keep these memories for all eternity? I certainly don’t. That surely would be eternal torture and eternal hell. That is one aspect of death we all look forward to, to escape from the mental torment from past traumatic events.
 
Would it be desirable to ‘keep’ this mortal body?

I cannot speak for others but of myself [and I imagine others are similar], my memories from this life are my experiences, many of which were traumatic. These memories stay with us. There is no way of erasing them.

We have flashbacks of trauma. We have nightmares, we are super sensitive to certain environmental stimuli. We are constantly looking over our shoulders. We trust no one. I guess everyone on this thread is like that too.

Do we really wish to keep these memories for all eternity? I certainly don’t. That surely would be eternal torture and eternal hell. That is one aspect of death we all look forward to, to escape from the mental torment from past traumatic events.
 
Would it be desirable to ‘keep’ this mortal body?

I cannot speak for others but of myself [and I imagine others are similar], my memories from this life are my experiences, many of which were traumatic. These memories stay with us. There is no way of erasing them.

We have flashbacks of trauma. We have nightmares, we are super sensitive to certain environmental stimuli. We are constantly looking over our shoulders. We trust no one. I guess everyone on this thread is like that too.

Do we really wish to keep these memories for all eternity? I certainly don’t. That surely would be eternal torture and eternal hell. That is one aspect of death we all look forward to, to escape from the mental torment from past traumatic events, which make us who we are and what we are…slightly bonkers!😛
 
Would it be desirable to ‘keep’ this mortal body?

I cannot speak for others but of myself [and I imagine others are similar], my memories from this life are my experiences, many of which were traumatic. These memories stay with us. There is no way of erasing them.

We have flashbacks of trauma. We have nightmares, we are super sensitive to certain environmental stimuli. We are constantly looking over our shoulders. We trust no one. I guess everyone on this thread is like that too.

Do we really wish to keep these memories for all eternity? I certainly don’t. That surely would be eternal torture and eternal hell. That is one aspect of death we all look forward to, to escape from the mental torment from past traumatic events, which make us who we are and what we are…slightly bonkers!😛
I think the necessity to keep ‘this body’ is mostly due to physicalist considerations of how to continue our personal existence. Once we’re back and living, “this” body can change and “we” still exist.

As for traumatic memories, that may not be a continued problem even in this body: abcnews.go.com/Health/story?id=2964509&page=1

I’ve never had experiences like the man they mention. But I can’t imagine purposefully sacrificing the bad memories I do have - I’d rather learn how to cope with them, which I believe is always possible (certainly in ideal circumstances.)
 
Nullasellus wrote:
As for traumatic memories, that may not be a continued problem even in this body: abcnews.go.com/Health/story?id=2964509&page=1
I’ve never had experiences like the man they mention.)
Then you are probably unique in all this forum
But I can’t imagine purposefully sacrificing the bad memories I do have - I’d rather learn how to cope with them, .
You are probably unique in all humanity. No disrespects, but tell me 'where were you when all the bullying was going on? Where were you when you were being harrassed at work? Where were you when folk were having nervous breakdowns?

You are indeed unique. I would imagine most folk have been to the brink of a nervous breakdown. They may not have actually beein incarcerated but I bet most folk have been there. Count your blessings. God has been very good to you. Trust me, you do not want to ‘learn to iive’ with those memories.
 
Would it be desirable to ‘keep’ this mortal body?

I cannot speak for others but of myself [and I imagine others are similar], my memories from this life are my experiences, many of which were traumatic. These memories stay with us. There is no way of erasing them.

We have flashbacks of trauma. We have nightmares, we are super sensitive to certain environmental stimuli. We are constantly looking over our shoulders. We trust no one. I guess everyone on this thread is like that too.

Do we really wish to keep these memories for all eternity? I certainly don’t. That surely would be eternal torture and eternal hell. That is one aspect of death we all look forward to, to escape from the mental torment from past traumatic events, which make us who we are and what we are…slightly bonkers!😛
God will wipe away every tear (cf. Rev 21:4). Consider trauma to be a “blemish” which will be removed from your glorified body. This flesh I am in, though it changes over time, is my flesh, and I believe it will be raised, glorified, on the last day.
 
Then you are probably unique in all this forum
Not really. I mean, do you see who I was comparing myself to? The article discusses a war veteran. I’ve had friends pass away, family as well. I have not seen friends get blown apart on a battlefield, etc.
You are probably unique in all humanity. No disrespects, but tell me 'where were you when all the bullying was going on? Where were you when you were being harrassed at work? Where were you when folk were having nervous breakdowns?
You are indeed unique. I would imagine most folk have been to the brink of a nervous breakdown. They may not have actually beein incarcerated but I bet most folk have been there. Count your blessings. God has been very good to you. Trust me, you do not want to ‘learn to iive’ with those memories.
Well, exactly. I made it clear that I did not have the experiences that are truly soul-shattering. Are there some memories that are best ‘coped with’ by eliminating? Possibly - I don’t believe I’ve had them, so I can only relate to what I know. Then again, your examples - bullying, harassment, serious stress - I have experienced, and no, I would rather not have those memories wiped away. Are they pleasant? No. But I’ve learned to get past and cope with bad experiences in my life (Again, there are worse experiences than those I have had, and I don’t cope perfectly) - in fact, I believe they’ve helped me become a better person. I now understand why those experiences shouldn’t be inflicted on others.

Anyway - discussion of personal experience aside - there we go. Very recent indication that this human body does not need to be given up to lose truly disastrous memories. I’d reserve judgment on whether doing so would be the best course of action, but we can retain what we have and still get by, one way or another.
 
Our resurrection bodies will be the same and yet different than our current bodies. There will be a continuinity between the body that dies and the body that rises. St. Paul speaks about this in 1 Corinthians. In other words, there is numerical identity between the two.

However, the resurrection body will also be different. Our only model to look at is the resurrection body of Jesus. He was able to eat fish and be touched and yet apparently was also able to walk through walls. Transformed physicallity is probably the best word to describe our new bodies. They will in a sense be the same body, only in a glorified, incoruptable state.
 
Dear Japhy and Sixtus: Thank you for your response to my questions re: soul, spiritual body, etc

I would like to tie this into the teachings of Ecc 12, Eze 44, Luke 16 and Rev 20

Here is what I understand:

Upon death, our soul returns to God (Ecc 12:7) either on the good or the bad side of the chasm which cannot be crossed (Luke 16).

Upon the return of Christ, *the elect *will reign with Christ for a thousand years (Rev 20). At that time I understand that *the elect * will be able to cross the chasm to save certain close relatives (Eze 44:25).

where and what is this string of events is the Catholic notion of Purgatory?

Thank you for your response. God bless you and grant you wisdom.

All wisdom comes from the Lord and is with him for ever Sir 1,1
 
…Oh, forgot to add that it is my understanding that the soul exists without a body between the time of death and the return of Christ described in Rev 20, 4
 
I would like to tie this into the teachings of Ecc 12, Eze 44, Luke 16 and Rev 20

Upon death, our soul returns to God (Ecc 12:7) either on the good or the bad side of the chasm which cannot be crossed (Luke 16).

Upon the return of Christ, *the elect *will reign with Christ for a thousand years (Rev 20). At that time I understand that *the elect * will be able to cross the chasm to save certain close relatives (Eze 44:25).
Although Ecclesiastes is part of sacred Scripture and inspired, it is more of a lament on the poor estate of man than a prophecy. Its author speaks rather indifferently of death: For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing, and they have no more reward; but the memory of them is lost. (Eccl 9:5) Ecclesiastes speaks of what is known “under the sun”; only at its conclusion does the author admit that even this own work of his is a vanity (it’s all been heard before), and that at the end of the day, all that matters is for us to fear God and obey Him: The end of the matter; all has been heard. Fear God, and keep his commandments; for this is the whole duty of man. For God will bring every deed into judgment, with every secret thing, whether good or evil. (Eccl 12:13-14)

I have never heard Ezekiel 44 exegeted to speak of the souls of the dead and the resurrection; it seems like you’re taking Ezek 44:25 out of context. It’s talking about the Levitical priests (the sons of Zadok) who shall be the ministering priests. It sets forth some rules for them (what they shall wear, how they are to groom themselves, etc.), one of which is that they cannot approach any dead person (because they will be defiled), but they can approach a close relative who has died. I don’t think the verse can be extrapolated to include a “crossing of the chasm to save a relative” after death.

As for Luke 16 (the parable of Lazarus and the rich man), that was in line with the Jewish conceptions of the day. See the Catholic Encyclopedia entry on The Bosom of Abraham. In short, Sheol or Hades was the name for the generic abode of the souls of the dead; the Bosom of Abraham was a “compartment” of that abode separated from the rest for the souls of those who died in favor with God (people such as Moses, Joshua, Elisha, David, etc.).

Catholic exegesis of Rev 20 (regarding the “first resurrection” and the thousand-year reign) understoods these events and terms symbolically:
The Church has wholly cast aside the doctrine of a millennium previous to the resurrection. St. Augustine has perhaps more than any one else helped to free the Church from all crude fancies as regards its pleasures. He explained the millennium allegorically and applied it to the Church of Christ on earth. With the foundation of the Church the millennium began. The first resurrection is the spiritual resurrection of the soul from sin (De Civ. Dei Lib. XX). Thus the number 1,000 is to be taken indefinitely. (Apocalypse, Catholic Encyclopedia)
where and what is this string of events is the Catholic notion of Purgatory?
Catholic doctrine teaches that, upon death, the soul goes to one of three places: Hell (whence it will not return, save perhaps for the moment of the resurrection when it is reunited with the flesh), Heaven (in the case of those who have died free from the stains and trappings of sin), or Purgatory (in the case of those who have died in the grace of God, but are imperfect in their sanctification). Purgatory is not defined as a “place” proper, but as a state of the soul, a period (although that word is not to be taken temporally) of purification (purgation). The soul in Purgatory is cleansed, as if through fire, of the effects and imprints of sin, and then passes to Heaven. Purgatory is not a “second chance”; all souls in Purgatory enter Heaven.

Consider the beach. If you are on the beach and have a towel and flip-flops, then when you are ready to leave, you can walk across the beach without getting sand all over yourself, and you can certainly get into your car without dirtying the whole place up. If, however, you’re a bit sloppy on the way back to the car, you have this sand on you that needs washing off, so you stop at one of the little shower units to be cleansed before entering your car. That’s one way of looking at the role (and necessity) of Purgatory. (This is my own little analogy made up on the spot, so take it with a grain of sand – or salt.)
 
Thank you for the excellent discussion.

After reading this thread, I am confused :confused: re: the state(s) of our being during the time between particular and final judgement. Please can you explain while distinguishing the terms of “soul”, “spiritual body”, “glorified body”, “ressurected body”, and “inseparable body-soul composite”.

It seems to me that
  1. our soul and flesh body are separated at the time of death, which coincides with particular judgement
  2. at the time of final judgement, and for some time prior to this event, our souls will be united with our (non-flesh) body.
…is our soul the same as our “spiritual body”?

May God grant you mercy, peace, and love in ever greater measure.
The soul is a spiritual body in the sense it’s an individual entity. There are several meanings to “spirit” in the Bible.

Our souls were created to be united to a physical body. Death it’s an unnatural state to the human soul. It seems that the soul cannot exist without some medium that’s why is given “white robes” (that’s why phantoms are depicted wearing white sheets).

The glorified body is the reunion of the immortal soul with our physical body. But this reunion makes the soul having a complete control of the physical body at quantum level. That’s why this body can pass through walls, appear and disappear and even change the physical appearance (after His resurrection Jesus was not recognized when He wanted).
 
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