The Pillar and Bulwark of the Truth

[JRKH]

Perhaps if you consider the meaning of the word “church” which is the called out ones. The verse in its basic meaning is speaking of the believers being the church where God 's truth rests. God dwells in believers we are His house and habitation a holy temple.

That is true… in part. Church also refers, in Scripture, to that visible, authoritative structure that people can find, recognize and come to if they have questions. After all, how is merely an invisible body of believers supposed to decide between two arguing Christians (Mt. 18:15-18)

Great posts here which I believe point to something of the misunderstanding that occurs between the Catholic and the Protestant on this matter.

My experience has been that people - especially Catholics - often think of “church” in terms of structure, hierarchy, governance, whereas the protestant - especially the more evangelical types - think of “church” more in terms of “assembly” - the people of God.

Biblically speaking, neither of these views is wrong. In fact - they should work in concert.
Consider - the passage in Mt 18:15-18 has the disputing parties trying to work things out among themselves before “telling it to the Church”. Yet the same passage tells the disputing parties that they must listen to the Church on pain of expulsion.
So - contained here is both the idea and importance of the “community of believers” AND the idea and importance of a structured and authoritative “teaching authority” (Latin = magisterium).
Then - as if the instructions from Christ were not enough…we see these instructions acted out in Acts 15.

or - given that there are 38,000 plus or minus competing groups all claiming to be the real way Christ wanted us to live - how can merely an invisible body make manifest the entire wisdom of God to the world (Eph 3:10)?

This also makes one wonder how a purely invisible body of believers - all in competing groups that cannot agree on things as little as whether or not to allow instruments in worship to as big as how one is saved (especially baptism) can possibly be considered the ground and support of the Truth. After all everyone can’t all be right at the same time, so most would be wrong and therefore NOT true. And this is HUGE especially considering the above mentioned baptism issue…

Amen - Although Jericho did not use the term “invisible body of believers” and I don’t know if he intended that idea or not - the basic idea here is quite correct.
NT Scripture contains multiple exhortations to unity - - not a sort of loose confederation, but a deep and profound unity.
Consider these passages…
John 17:20-21
20 "I do not pray for these only, but also for those who believe in me through their word, 21 that they may all be one; even as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be in us, so that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

Rom 15:5-6
5 May the God of endurance and encouragement grant you to live in such** harmony with one another**, in accord with Christ Jesus, 6 that together you may with one voice glorify the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.

1 Cor 1:10
I appeal to you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree and that there be no dissensions among you, but that you be united in the same mind and the same judgment.

2 Cor 13:11
Finally, brothers, rejoice. Aim for restoration, comfort one another, agree with one another, live in peace; and the God of love and peace will be with you.

Php 1:27
Only let your manner of life be worthy of the gospel of Christ, so that whether I come and see you or am absent, I may hear of you that you are standing firm in one spirit, with one mind striving side by side for the faith of the gospel,

1 Pet 3:8
Finally, all of you, have unity of mind, sympathy, brotherly love, a tender heart, and a humble mind.
Given these calls to unity…A unity that would make us one as Christ and the Father are one…a structured and authoritative structure becomes a natural and necessary outgrowth of the body of believers. It becomes the “go to” place and the repository and disseminator of the accumulated wisdom of the many discussions, meetings, councils and endowments of the Holy Spirit to the people of God.

In this way - the body of believers - in whom the Holy Spirit dwells - truly become one as Jesus and the Father are one and be the pillar of Truth.

Peace
James

 

[Dave_Noonan]

You are correct.

One other question that I have about this passage, since — according to an earlier post — the Greek connects the “pillar and foundation” grammatically to the Church, is this: In the Greek that I looked up, there is no definite article. At least not explicitly. I have seen a few (very few) translations that read “a pillar and a foundation of the truth”.

If it is “a pillar” and “a foundation” of the truth, that permits other “pillars”. What’s the correct translation there, definite or indefinite article?

Greek has no indefinite articles; “a” and “an” are always only English additions. Literally, “…, which is ekklesia of living God, pillar and foundation of the truth.”

 

[Dave_Noonan]

I’m no Greek expert but I believe I can answer this. My understanding that a predicate nominative never uses the definite article, even if the intended meaning is as if one were used.

That’s really not correct. The definite article isn’t required–the rules in Greek about definite articles aren’t as hard and fast as in English–but to say “never uses” is a rash overstatement.

 

[QNDNNDQDCE]

Thanks for the correction. This is apparently called Colwell’s Rule. I found a good article that explains the rule (which, as you say, is not hard and fast), giving examples and exceptions.

ntresources.com/blog/documents/colwell.pdf

 

[Isaiah45_9]

Actually, the JW New World “Translation” renders 1 Tim 3:15 as “a pillar and a foundation”. It’s why I ask the question.

Not surprisingly, the ESV reads:

****if I delay, you may know how one ought to behave in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, a pillar and buttress of the truth.

Transparency…

 

[jericho777]

PoorNight and JRKH
I was not referring to an invisible church because as the body of Christ we are called to be His ambassadors. We are to be salt and light. That would make us visible as we go about the Lords work.

JRKH I do have a more of a believers being the church vs an organization per se being the church. When you read scripture the overwhelming demonstration of church is with the individual believers.Tthe epistles are addressed to the church the people who are the body of Christ not to a hierarchical structure. They were to be read to the general assembly. The Catholic view separates the laity from the clergy. In the CC the laity has only a support role in the faith. There is a wall of separation between them both and the laity does not cross the line. They are not likely to be active in spreading the gospel in their daily lives since that is reserved for the clergy. It’s more of an observer role. They have no authority to do it. In the evangelical churches there is no “laity” believers are active in all facets of faith including spreading the gospel and ministering to those around us.

 

[JRKH]

PoorNight and JRKH
I was not referring to an invisible church because as the body of Christ we are called to be His ambassadors. We are to be salt and light. That would make us visible as we go about the Lords work.

Amen - well put.

JRKH I do have a more of a believers being the church vs an organization per se being the church.

This is where I think much of the disconnect occurs and it comes down to a single word…versus…there should be no “versus”. The believers are the Church and the organization is there to aid the believers.

When you read scripture the overwhelming demonstration of church is with the individual believers.The epistles are addressed to the church the people who are the body of Christ not to a hierarchical structure. They were to be read to the general assembly.

Yes the Epistles were largely addressed to the community - not to individuals (Timothy being an exception). However consider this…Who were they sent by and how did they convey teaching? The writers of the Epistles were not suggesting to the local bodies that they determine their own doctrines…or that they vote on things… Rather these letters dealt firmly and authoritatively with various issues within the local communities. They were coming from A teacher** TO** the community…This indicates a teaching authority held by church elders in communication with each other.

The Catholic view separates the laity from the clergy. In the CC the laity has only a support role in the faith. There is a wall of separation between them both and the laity does not cross the line. They are not likely to be active in spreading the gospel in their daily lives since that is reserved for the clergy. It’s more of an observer role. They have no authority to do it. In the evangelical churches there is no “laity” believers are active in all facets of faith including spreading the gospel and ministering to those around us.

Jericho - I’m so glad you are here at CAF. Your view of the Catholic Church is - frankly - wrong. Hopefully we can help correct that.
While I freely admit that most Catholics are not really overt in “spreading the gospel in their daily lives” we most certainly DO have the authority to do so. I would be interested to know where you got the idea that we don’t.
Likewise there are a great many Catholic laity who minister to those around us. CAtholics volunteer in many places from soup kitchens to hospice to nursing homes to hospitals to drug interventions to crisis pregnancy centers.
Members of the Laity play the music at church…do readings and help distribute communion as well as taking Our Lord in the Eucharist to shut-ins. They serve as teachers in RCIA, they form grief committees for those who have lost someone.
The list just just goes on and on…And that doesn’t count some of the larger institutions that are Catholic - Many hospitals were founded by the Catholic Church…the St Vincent DePaul Society is a very large agency working with the poor.

Catholics make their voices heard at many levels in the discussions that occur in the Church - very much in the pattern of Mt 18:15-18. We discuss, argue, debate, and can be generally pretty pesky amonst ourselves……
We also realize that there are many well trained, prayerful and good men and women - clergy and theologians etc. who can help make sense of these various debates - And we are grateful for them.

So - as I pointed out earlier…there is not “versus” - there is not either / or between “body of believers” and “organization” or hierarchy…They are two sides of the same coin…a coin minted in the first century by Christ and the Apostles themselves.

Peace
James

 

[Abu]

jericho777 #26
The Catholic view separates the laity from the clergy. In the CC the laity has only a support role in the faith. There is a wall of separation between them both and the laity does not cross the line. They are not likely to be active in spreading the gospel in their daily lives since that is reserved for the clergy. It’s more of an observer role. They have no authority to do it

Incorrect.

The reality is that the Post-Synodal Apostolic Exhortation *Christifideles Laici *(on the Vocation and the Mission of the Lay Faithful in the Church and in the World) 1988, Bl John Paul II, detailed **“the ‘Criteria of Ecclesiality’ for Lay Groups” as requiring “The responsibility of professing the Catholic faith, embracing and proclaiming the truth about Christ, the Church and humanity, in obedience to the Church’s Magisterium, as the Church interprets it.” **#30, my emphasis].

1. “Without doubt a mending of the Christian fabric of society is urgently needed in all parts of the world. But for this to come about what is needed is to first remake the Christian fabric of the ecclesial community itself present in these countries and nations.

“In the case of coming generations, the lay faithful must offer the very valuable contribution, more necessary than ever, of a systematic work in catechesis. The Synod Fathers have gratefully taken note of the work of catechists, acknowledging that they ‘have a task that carries great importance in animating ecclesial communities’. It goes without saying that Christian parents are the primary and irreplaceable catechists of their children, a task for which they are given the grace by the Sacrament of Matrimony. At the same time, however, we all ought to be aware of the ‘rights’ that each baptized person has to being instructed, educated and supported in the faith and the Christian life.

“At this moment the lay faithful, in virtue of their participation in the prophetic mission of Christ, are fully part of this work of the Church. Their responsibility, in particular, is to testify how the Christian faith constitutes the only fully valid response-consciously perceived and stated by all in varying degrees-to the problems and hopes that life poses to every person and society.”

 

[Porknpie]

PoorNight and JRKH
I was not referring to an invisible church because as the body of Christ we are called to be His ambassadors. We are to be salt and light. That would make us visible as we go about the Lords work.

JRKH I do have a more of a believers being the church vs an organization per se being the church. When you read scripture the overwhelming demonstration of church is with the individual believers.Tthe epistles are addressed to the church the people who are the body of Christ not to a hierarchical structure. They were to be read to the general assembly. The Catholic view separates the laity from the clergy. In the CC the laity has only a support role in the faith. There is a wall of separation between them both and the laity does not cross the line. They are not likely to be active in spreading the gospel in their daily lives since that is reserved for the clergy. It’s more of an observer role.

Jericho,

Where do you get your thoughts above? Let’s try correcting them.

Can I suggest that you read the following from the catechism. Link here. Christ established his Catholic Church with authority and a mission, with an office that teaches, sanctifies and governs. The demonstration of the Church in the scripture includes very specifically, Christ giving the apostles (the first Catholic bishops) the power to bind and loosen on earth.

19 I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven,[a] and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.”

The quote below is from St. Ignatius of Antioch who was a disciple of St. John (the same apostle taught by Christ. Note that the Church Christ established had a structure including Bishops and Deacons and The EUCHARIST! And it’s where the Bishops are that you will find the Catholic Church & Jesus Christ. If you don’t have a proper Eucharist in your Church, you are not following what Christ Established for our salvation.

“See that ye all follow the bishop, even as Christ Jesus does the Father, and the presbytery as ye would the apostles. Do ye also reverence the deacons, as those that carry out the appointment of God. Let no man do anything connected with the Church without the bishop. Let that be deemed a proper Eucharist, which is [administered] either by the bishop, or by one to whom he has entrusted it. Wherever the bishop shall appear, there let the multitude also be; by the bishop, or by one to whom he has entrusted it. Wherever the bishop shall appear, there let the multitude also be; even as, wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church.” Ignatius of Antioch, Epistle to the Smyrneans, 8:2 (c. A.D. 110).

And the words below from Cyprian

”Whence you ought to know that the bishop is in the Church, and the Church in the bishop; and if any one be not with the bishop, that he is not in the Church, and that those flatter themselves in vain who creep in, not having peace with God’s priests, and think that they communicate secretly with some; while the Church, which is Catholic and one, is not cut nor divided, but is indeed connected and bound together by the cement of priests who cohere with one another.” Cyprian, To Florentius, Epistle 66/67 (A.D. 254).

The catechism link above includes the vocation of the laity to spread the gospel.

900 Since, like all the faithful, **lay Christians are entrusted by God with the apostolate by virtue of their Baptism and Confirmation, they have the right and duty, individually or grouped in associations, to work so that the divine message of salvation may be known and accepted by all men throughout the earth. This duty is the more pressing when it is only through them that men can hear the Gospel and know Christ. **Their activity in ecclesial communities is so necessary that, for the most part, the apostolate of the pastors cannot be fully effective without it.433

Pork

PS…Catholics believe 100% that we are saved by Grace, through Faith, Working in Love

 

[JRKH]

Jericho,

Where do you get your thoughts above? Let’s try correcting them.

Can I suggest that you read the following from the catechism. Link here. Christ established his Catholic Church with authority and a mission, with an office that teaches, sanctifies and governs. The demonstration of the Church in the scripture includes very specifically, Christ giving the apostles (the first Catholic bishops) the power to bind and loosen on earth.

19 I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven,[a] and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.”

The quote below is from St. Ignatius of Antioch who was a disciple of St. John (the same apostle taught by Christ. Note that the Church Christ established had a structure including Bishops and Deacons and The EUCHARIST! And it’s where the Bishops are that you will find the Catholic Church & Jesus Christ. If you don’t have a proper Eucharist in your Church, you are not following what Christ Established for our salvation.

“See that ye all follow the bishop, even as Christ Jesus does the Father, and the presbytery as ye would the apostles. Do ye also reverence the deacons, as those that carry out the appointment of God. Let no man do anything connected with the Church without the bishop. Let that be deemed a proper Eucharist, which is [administered] either by the bishop, or by one to whom he has entrusted it. Wherever the bishop shall appear, there let the multitude also be; by the bishop, or by one to whom he has entrusted it. Wherever the bishop shall appear, there let the multitude also be; even as, wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church.” Ignatius of Antioch, Epistle to the Smyrneans, 8:2 (c. A.D. 110).

And the words below from Cyprian

”Whence you ought to know that the bishop is in the Church, and the Church in the bishop; and if any one be not with the bishop, that he is not in the Church, and that those flatter themselves in vain who creep in, not having peace with God’s priests, and think that they communicate secretly with some; while the Church, which is Catholic and one, is not cut nor divided, but is indeed connected and bound together by the cement of priests who cohere with one another.” Cyprian, To Florentius, Epistle 66/67 (A.D. 254).

The catechism link above includes the vocation of the laity to spread the gospel.

900 Since, like all the faithful, **lay Christians are entrusted by God with the apostolate by virtue of their Baptism and Confirmation, they have the right and duty, individually or grouped in associations, to work so that the divine message of salvation may be known and accepted by all men throughout the earth. This duty is the more pressing when it is only through them that men can hear the Gospel and know Christ. **Their activity in ecclesial communities is so necessary that, for the most part, the apostolate of the pastors cannot be fully effective without it.433

Pork

PS…Catholics believe 100% that we are saved by Grace, through Faith, Working in Love

Pork…
Thanks for providing those quotes and links…I didn’t have time to look the things up and such links to official church documents should be of immense help to our friend Jericho…

Peace
James

 

[jericho777]

First my insight into the catholic church/faith comes from being born and raised catholic. I’m just making observations from firsthand experiences.

As you said the epistles are addressed to the general assembly except for Timothy. That says a lot in of itself because it recognizes the people themselves as the church organization not an organization apart from the body of Christ. Paul received his doctrines directly from God in a personal revelation, not from anywhere else. Paul himself was giving instruction to the body of Christ without “church” direction or preview of them. Paul also was given the mission to evangelize the gentiles and establish their churches by God personally.

It is true since Vatican II the laity has been allowed a greater role in the church but there is still a separation mentality between the clergy and laity. I have witnessed this personally. You say Catholics make their voices heard but their cries pretty much go unanswered. The abuse scandal which was very large in my area is one example. Those crying out were called trouble makers and worse.

 

[JRKH]

First my insight into the catholic church/faith comes from being born and raised catholic. I’m just making observations from firsthand experiences.

I here ya…
I was born and raised Catholic too - and was frankly quite surprised to discover (when I returned) how many misconceptions I had picked up as a youth…

As you said the epistles are addressed to the general assembly except for Timothy. That says a lot in of itself because it recognizes the people themselves as the church organization not an organization apart from the body of Christ.

Exactly - and the same view that the Catholic Church holds. The organization is not something separate from the people themselves.

Paul received his doctrines directly from God in a personal revelation, not from anywhere else. Paul himself was giving instruction to the body of Christ without “church” direction or preview of them. Paul also was given the mission to evangelize the gentiles and establish their churches by God personally.

Amen - I completely agree.
But consider this. Paul himself relates that - "I went up by revelation; and I laid before them (but privately before those who were of repute) the gospel which I preach among the Gentiles, lest somehow I should be running or had run in vain. - (Galatians 2:2)
Likewise Luke, Paul’s companion, relates how the disputed matter in Antioch was taken to and resolved by a council of elders (Acts 15). By what Paul calls the pillars of the faith in Gal 2:9.
Here we see how Paul brings himself to the other “pillars” - men of repute.
Why should he do this since his revelation is directly from God?
Paul Himself says that it was to make sure that he was not “running in vain”.
And since Paul went up “by revelation” to do this…is this not even more proof that God wishes all his evangelists to be on the same page? That they should communicate with each other and, if there be differences, resolve them?

Again - I see in these things the very profound desire of the early Church to be one as Jesus and the father are one. To speak with one voice, to have unity of mind etc…all the things that Peter and Paul exhorted their readers to. Unity, communication, settling differences etc so that they could be truly one as Jesus prayed for.

It is true since Vatican II the laity has been allowed a greater role in the church but there is still a separation mentality between the clergy and laity. I have witnessed this personally.

Yes - I understand that you may have witnessed what you expressed earlier…
But there is a difference between expressing what you’ve seen or heard from certain Catholics and saying “The Catholic Church does this or that”. This implies the Church teaches a certain thing…which it may not.
The “separation mentality” that you speak of is more of a personal matter than it is a teaching one.

You say Catholics make their voices heard but their cries pretty much go unanswered. The abuse scandal which was very large in my area is one example. Those crying out were called trouble makers and worse.

Well - I told you we can be s pesky lot……
As for voices going unanswered…that is a very broad statement. I agree that the abuse scandal was a very difficult time and not handled well in many instances.
There are also voices that want to talk about certain things that were settled long ago - often by council and, if it is doctrinal in nature cannot be changed (i.e. women priests) or, if it’s a matter of practice then it can still be discussed whether change actually occurs or not (i.e. married priests).

The bottom line is that what you had previously expressed does not square with Church teaching - even though some, or even many, Catholics act as though it does.

The Church organization is simply not something separate from the body of the faithful.

Peace
James

 

[jericho777]

Hi james

I see the “CC” still being an organization in practice elevated above the body of Christ whereas scripture portrays a more unified body itself. I think if you would ask non Catholics how they view the church in relation to the body of Christ they would respond just as I have. Just my opinion.

As to Gal 2:2 I don’t think Paul was looking for an approval of his doctrine. After all if God has directly told you what to preach no man or organization has can go against that. Paul’s message was fully absent of law as practiced by Jewish believers. Remember Paul withstood Peter right to his face for being a hypocrite suddenly keeping the law when people from the church at Jerusalem showed up. Remember for three after Jesus appeared to Paul he preached what God had told him not feeling the need to have it approved by Jerusalem. Why now? Maybe to reveal to those in Jerusalem what God wanted for them in a nice way.

You are right in scripture we see the call for unity but there are many places where we see false teachers arising. In 3 John 1:9-10 we see Diotrephes a leader in the church will not receive the apostle John and forbidding the believers from receiving him also. Punishing them with expulsion from the church! This was going on as the church was being established. So much for unity.

In evangelical churches there is not the laity clergy separation mentality. People are encouraged to find the gifts the Holy Spirit has given them and use them in Kingdom enterprise. Just as Paul encourages believers in 1 Chor 14:12-18.

 

[JRKH]

Hi james

I see the “CC” still being an organization in practice elevated above the body of Christ whereas scripture portrays a more unified body itself. I think if you would ask non Catholics how they view the church in relation to the body of Christ they would respond just as I have. Just my opinion.

Understood…This is just your opinion.

As to Gal 2:2 I don’t think Paul was looking for an approval of his doctrine. After all if God has directly told you what to preach no man or organization has can go against that.

I really don’t see how you can get this from what Paul wrote in Galatians. He went by revelation (God sent him) and lay out his teachings “lest somehow I should be running or had run in vain.” Maybe God did not send him in order to “get approval” but it certainly shows that the Apostles valued communication and being “on the same page” so to speak.
And this is my point…

Paul’s message was fully absent of law as practiced by Jewish believers. Remember Paul withstood Peter right to his face for being a hypocrite suddenly keeping the law when people from the church at Jerusalem showed up. Remember for three after Jesus appeared to Paul he preached what God had told him not feeling the need to have it approved by Jerusalem. Why now? Maybe to reveal to those in Jerusalem what God wanted for them in a nice way.

Yes Paul confronted Peter. Good for him. Yes He preached for some time before going up to Jerusalem. I actually quite sure that those in Jerusalem probably had heard some things about Paul in that time. A visit from Paul would certainly have been a wonderful opportunity to discuss things and come to a common understanding.
Again - the idea of communication and commonality - everyone on the same page.

You are right in scripture we see the call for unity but there are many places where we see false teachers arising. In 3 John 1:9-10 we see Diotrephes a leader in the church will not receive the apostle John and forbidding the believers from receiving him also. Punishing them with expulsion from the church! This was going on as the church was being established. So much for unity.

Yes false teachers arise and they are opposed by an organized Church that communicates and resolves differences with Truth by the guidance of the Holy Spirit.
The issue you mention above is but one such case. John, writing to Gaius, knows what is going on and so do others - he mentions Demetrius as having testimony from Truth itself and John evidently hopes he can eventually come, speak personally with Gaius and confront the matter in person.
As I say again - the interrelationship between clergy and laity - between “organization” and the “community” is synergistic. They are not separate as you indicated in your earlier post.

In evangelical churches there is not the laity clergy separation mentality.

Yes - but as we have already established the "separation mentality: that you have of the Catholic Church is just your opinion.

People are encouraged to find the gifts the Holy Spirit has given them and use them in Kingdom enterprise. Just as Paul encourages believers in 1 Cor 14:12-18.

Amen - as Catholics we are also encouraged to do this.

Peace
James

 

[Abu]

jericho777 #33
You are right in scripture we see the call for unity but there are many places where we see false teachers arising. In 3 John 1:9-10 we see Diotrephes a leader in the church will not receive the apostle John and forbidding the believers from receiving him also. Punishing them with expulsion from the church! This was going on as the church was being established. So much for unity.

From the very beginning there were dissenters and challenges to Christ and His Apostles. Apart from the Scribes and Pharisees there was the betrayer Judas.

“Christ used the word ‘Church’ only twice, which the evangelists identified with ekklesia, corresponding to the Hebrew term quhal, meaning a congregation or assembly of the faithful.” (The Catholic Catechism, Fr John A Hardon, S.J., Doubleday 1975, p 209). In the New Testament the word is used of the whole community of the believers in Christ (Matthew 16:18) and of a single community of the faithful (Romans 6:5).

What is appalling is the poster’s rejection of Christ Himself as He very clearly established His Church.
The first error is in disregarding the mandate of Jesus, the Son of God, in installing Peter as His Supreme Vicar:
All four promises to Peter alone:
“You are Peter and on this rock I will build My Church.” (Mt 16:18)
“The gates of hell will not prevail against it.”(Mt 16:18)
“I will give you the keys of the Kingdom of heaven." ( Mt 16:19)
“Whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven.” (Mt 16:19) [Later to the Twelve]

Sole authority:
“Strengthen your brethren.” (Lk 22:32)
“Feed My sheep.”(Jn 21:17).

So the other Apostles were NOT given this supreme authority given to Christ’s Supreme Vicar.

The second error is in disregarding history.
Already, Peter had exercised his supreme authority in the upper room before Pentecost to have Judas’ place filled. At the first Apostolic Council of Jerusalem Peter settled the heated discussion over circumcising the gentiles and “the whole assembly fell silent” (Acts 15:7-12). Paul made sure that his ministry to the gentiles was recognised by, Peter (Gal 1:I8).

The third successor of St Peter, Clement, wrote to the Catholics of Corinth in A.D. 95: “If any man should be disobedient unto the words spoken by God through us, let them understand that they will entangle themselves in no slight transgression and danger… Render obedience to the things written by us through the Holy Spirit.” (I Clem. ad Cor. 59,1). This Is The Faith, Francis J Ripley, Fowler Wright Books, 1971, p 151; 139-141].

About Pope Victor I’s declaration by edict, about the year 200, that any local Church that failed to conform with Rome was excluded from the union with the one Church by heresy, none other than the radical protestant Adolph von Harnack admitted that Victor I was “recognised, in his capacity of bishop of Rome, as the special guardian of the ‘common unity’… " (See And On This Rock, p 118, 1987, Trinity Communications, Fr Stanley L Jaki).

Harnack asked: “How would Victor have ventured on such an edict – though indeed he had not the power of enforcing it in every case – unless the special prerogative of Rome to determine the conditions of the ‘common unity’ in the vital questions of faith had been an acknowledged and well-established fact?”

Precisely.

The apostles were a collegial community, under Peter. “By the end of the apostolic age, the bishops of the Catholic Church began meeting together on a regional basis, and with the first ecumenical council at Nicaea in 325, this co-operative activity reached worldwide proportions.” (Fr John A Hardon, S.J., The Catholic Catechism, Doubleday, 1975, p 320-321). The teaching of Ecumenical Councils has to be approved by Christ’s Supreme Vicar.

In evangelical churches there is not the laity clergy separation mentality.

Precisely because Christ’s establishment of the sacramental nature of the priesthood is not recognised
Therefore missing is the Sacrifice of the Holy Mass, the completeness of seven sacraments, Sacred Tradition and the completeness of the Sacred Scriptures as well as the fullness of truth through Christ’s established Magisterium.

 

[Porknpie]

Hi james

I see the “CC” still being an organization in practice elevated above the body of Christ whereas scripture portrays a more unified body itself. I think if you would ask non Catholics how they view the church in relation to the body of Christ they would respond just as I have. Just my opinion.

As to Gal 2:2 I don’t think Paul was looking for an approval of his doctrine. After all if God has directly told you what to preach no man or organization has can go against that. Paul’s message was fully absent of law as practiced by Jewish believers. Remember Paul withstood Peter right to his face for being a hypocrite suddenly keeping the law when people from the church at Jerusalem showed up. Remember for three after Jesus appeared to Paul he preached what God had told him not feeling the need to have it approved by Jerusalem. Why now? Maybe to reveal to those in Jerusalem what God wanted for them in a nice way.

You are right in scripture we see the call for unity but there are many places where we see false teachers arising. In 3 John 1:9-10 we see Diotrephes a leader in the church will not receive the apostle John and forbidding the believers from receiving him also. Punishing them with expulsion from the church! This was going on as the church was being established. So much for unity.

In evangelical churches there is not the laity clergy separation mentality. People are encouraged to find the gifts the Holy Spirit has given them and use them in Kingdom enterprise. Just as Paul encourages believers in 1 Chor 14:12-18.

Jericho -

Allow me to change gears just a tad…

We would both agree that all scripture is inspired and profitable for teaching. But my question is, how do you know that the 27 NT writings in your bible are all inspired and inerrant?

Pork

 

[jericho777]

Understood…This is just your opinion.

I really don’t see how you can get this from what Paul wrote in Galatians. He went by revelation (God sent him) and lay out his teachings “lest somehow I should be running or had run in vain.” Maybe God did not send him in order to “get approval” but it certainly shows that the Apostles valued communication and being “on the same page” so to speak.
And this is my point…

Yes Paul confronted Peter. Good for him. Yes He preached for some time before going up to Jerusalem. I actually quite sure that those in Jerusalem probably had heard some things about Paul in that time. A visit from Paul would certainly have been a wonderful opportunity to discuss things and come to a common understanding.
Again - the idea of communication and commonality - everyone on the same page.

Yes false teachers arise and they are opposed by an organized Church that communicates and resolves differences with Truth by the guidance of the Holy Spirit.
The issue you mention above is but one such case. John, writing to Gaius, knows what is going on and so do others - he mentions Demetrius as having testimony from Truth itself and John evidently hopes he can eventually come, speak personally with Gaius and confront the matter in person.
As I say again - the interrelationship between clergy and laity - between “organization” and the “community” is synergistic. They are not separate as you indicated in your earlier post.

Yes - but as we have already established the "separation mentality: that you have of the Catholic Church is just your opinion.

Amen - as Catholics we are also encouraged to do this.

Peace
James

James Although I don’t know the exact reason Gal 2:2 is worded the way it is I know with utmost certainty when God tells someone directly what the truth is He does not have to gain approval from anyone. No one councils the Lord.

I don’t believe for one second if someone called out the current pope for something being contrary to the word of God there would be this type of approval from you!

 

[JRKH]

James Although I don’t know the exact reason Gal 2:2 is worded the way it is

Then this seems something worth pondering.

I know with utmost certainty when God tells someone directly what the truth is He does not have to gain approval from anyone. No one councils the Lord.

How does one know that it is truly the Lord speaking truth to them?

In the Christian community today there are those who believe that the Lord has told them what the truth is and they hold to…

1. The Bread and Wine ARE the Body and Blood
2. The Bread and Wine are NOT of the body and blood - but only symbols.
3. Water Baptism is necessary for salvation
4. Water Baptism is not necessary for salvation
5. Salvation can be lost after baptism
6. Salvation cannot be lost after baptism
   etc…

So if, when God speaks truth to a person, they do not need to “gain approval”…How does one determine which of these scripturally supported but opposing views are from God and which are not?

Peace
James

 

[johnnyc176]

Jesus is the Way, the Truth and the Life.
Jesus founded the Catholic Church.
The Church is the pillar and foundation of truth.

 

[jericho777]

From the very beginning there were dissenters and challenges to Christ and His Apostles. Apart from the Scribes and Pharisees there was the betrayer Judas.

“Christ used the word ‘Church’ only twice, which the evangelists identified with ekklesia, corresponding to the Hebrew term quhal, meaning a congregation or assembly of the faithful.” (The Catholic Catechism, Fr John A Hardon, S.J., Doubleday 1975, p 209). In the New Testament the word is used of the whole community of the believers in Christ (Matthew 16:18) and of a single community of the faithful (Romans 6:5).

What is appalling is the poster’s rejection of Christ Himself as He very clearly established His Church.
The first error is in disregarding the mandate of Jesus, the Son of God, in installing Peter as His Supreme Vicar:
All four promises to Peter alone:
“You are Peter and on this rock I will build My Church.” (Mt 16:18)
“The gates of hell will not prevail against it.”(Mt 16:18)
“I will give you the keys of the Kingdom of heaven." ( Mt 16:19)
“Whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven.” (Mt 16:19) [Later to the Twelve]

Sole authority:
“Strengthen your brethren.” (Lk 22:32)
“Feed My sheep.”(Jn 21:17).

So the other Apostles were NOT given this supreme authority given to Christ’s Supreme Vicar.

The second error is in disregarding history.
Already, Peter had exercised his supreme authority in the upper room before Pentecost to have Judas’ place filled. At the first Apostolic Council of Jerusalem Peter settled the heated discussion over circumcising the gentiles and “the whole assembly fell silent” (Acts 15:7-12). Paul made sure that his ministry to the gentiles was recognised by, Peter (Gal 1:I8).

The third successor of St Peter, Clement, wrote to the Catholics of Corinth in A.D. 95: “If any man should be disobedient unto the words spoken by God through us, let them understand that they will entangle themselves in no slight transgression and danger… Render obedience to the things written by us through the Holy Spirit.” (I Clem. ad Cor. 59,1). This Is The Faith, Francis J Ripley, Fowler Wright Books, 1971, p 151; 139-141].

About Pope Victor I’s declaration by edict, about the year 200, that any local Church that failed to conform with Rome was excluded from the union with the one Church by heresy, none other than the radical protestant Adolph von Harnack admitted that Victor I was “recognised, in his capacity of bishop of Rome, as the special guardian of the ‘common unity’… " (See And On This Rock, p 118, 1987, Trinity Communications, Fr Stanley L Jaki).

Harnack asked: “How would Victor have ventured on such an edict – though indeed he had not the power of enforcing it in every case – unless the special prerogative of Rome to determine the conditions of the ‘common unity’ in the vital questions of faith had been an acknowledged and well-established fact?”

Precisely.

The apostles were a collegial community, under Peter. “By the end of the apostolic age, the bishops of the Catholic Church began meeting together on a regional basis, and with the first ecumenical council at Nicaea in 325, this co-operative activity reached worldwide proportions.” (Fr John A Hardon, S.J., The Catholic Catechism, Doubleday, 1975, p 320-321). The teaching of Ecumenical Councils has to be approved by Christ’s Supreme Vicar.
Precisely because Christ’s establishment of the sacramental nature of the priesthood is not recognised
Therefore missing is the Sacrifice of the Holy Mass, the completeness of seven sacraments, Sacred Tradition and the completeness of the Sacred Scriptures as well as the fullness of truth through Christ’s established Magisterium.

Abu you correctly interpret “church” as being people, the body of Christ centered as opposed to an organizational interpretation. Then immediately turn the meaning to an organization. Why when scripture says just the opposite?

Actually James gave his approval to what Peter had said about the gentiles. Giving him the final say. Acts 15:13-14. Then James makes the final declaration Acts 15:19-21.
This shows him as the leader in Jerusalem.