The Pillar and Bulwark of the Truth

[JRKH]

Hi James and Randy,

James you have been very kind. I’m trying to avoid arguments and the such. I have no time nor desire for it. Just nice conversation.

Me too…Conversations such as these are helpful to all.

Paul’s confidence came from his personal experiences with God.

I agree - but the question remains - both for Paul and for us…How to know for sure that the experience IS with God and not with the prince of liars.

Starting with the Damascus road experience and how it was a life changing event, to go from persecuting Christians to boldly preaching the gospel. Paul had a deep personal relationship with God.

So Paul did not have a “deep personal relationship with God” as a Jew?
Would Paul have considered himself to have a deep personal relationship with God as Jew.?

He saw Him and heard His voice and lived by faith through his stonings, beatings, shipwrecks and the likes. It is my personal opinion based on scripture Paul knew God, His voice and His ways just as Moses did and was fully confident in God’s instruction to him. I don’t think the other apostles doubted their calling either. They boldly and confidently carried out the Lords instruction to them.

I agree with this.

Lastly I don’t think Paul had to ask for approval on penning any of his epistles and neither did any of the other authors the Holy Spirit inspired to write scripture.

Yes - and yet we are left with Paul’s own words - recorded as the Spirit moved him to do so in Gal 2:2, “lest I had been running in vain”…Paul’s own words.

Now I have repeatedly said - that I believe this is less about asking approval than it is about communication. To be more specific it is about the spirit driven desire to communicate, to compare notes, to correct, to refine, to improve and to synchronize the Gospel message among the leaders and evangelizers of the community.

It is very unwise to seek approval from men for that which God has revealed to you. It subjugates your faith and God’s authority to men.

And Yet Christ himself tells us to do just this. He tells us to take differences and disputes to “the Church” and to listen to “the Church”.
WHY? ? ?
For one very good reason.
It is far easier for a single individual to be deceived than it is for a group.
You say that one should not seek the approval of others for that which God has revealed to you…Yet my earlier question remains…How do you know it was God that revealed it?
We have many differing beliefs in Christianity - all claiming to be correct - God revealed - and very often claiming Scriptural evidence…
Yet these beliefs are contradictory and held by at least one of the groups to be important to one’s salvation.

So - Short of being knocked off a horse and blinded…and even this could be the work of the evil one…how does one know that a revelation is from God???

That’s the 64 dollar question…

Peace
James

 

[jericho777]

Me too…Conversations such as these are helpful to all.

I agree - but the question remains - both for Paul and for us…How to know for sure that the experience IS with God and not with the prince of liars.

So Paul did not have a “deep personal relationship with God” as a Jew?
Would Paul have considered himself to have a deep personal relationship with God as Jew.?

I agree with this.

Yes - and yet we are left with Paul’s own words - recorded as the Spirit moved him to do so in Gal 2:2, “lest I had been running in vain”…Paul’s own words.

Now I have repeatedly said - that I believe this is less about asking approval than it is about communication. To be more specific it is about the spirit driven desire to communicate, to compare notes, to correct, to refine, to improve and to synchronize the Gospel message among the leaders and evangelizers of the community.

And Yet Christ himself tells us to do just this. He tells us to take differences and disputes to “the Church” and to listen to “the Church”.
WHY? ? ?
For one very good reason.
It is far easier for a single individual to be deceived than it is for a group.
You say that one should not seek the approval of others for that which God has revealed to you…Yet my earlier question remains…How do you know it was God that revealed it?
We have many differing beliefs in Christianity - all claiming to be correct - God revealed - and very often claiming Scriptural evidence…
Yet these beliefs are contradictory and held by at least one of the groups to be important to one’s salvation.

So - Short of being knocked off a horse and blinded…and even this could be the work of the evil one…how does one know that a revelation is from God???

That’s the 64 dollar question…

Peace
James

Well for me I have never seen or audibaly heard the voice of God. God can’t and won’t contradict His word would be a starting point. Plus I think God will give you the grace to believe and do what he asks. The bible says to test the spirit to confirm it is of God. 1 John 4:1.

I don’t know the type of relationship Paul had with God before he was a Christian. Do you have any insight? But we know after he met Jesus his life was never the same again. In the OT few had a personal relationship with God.

Quote JRKH: Now I have repeatedly said - that I believe this is less about asking approval than it is about communication. To be more specific it is about the spirit driven desire to communicate, to compare notes, to correct, to refine, to improve and to synchronize the Gospel message among the leaders and evangelizers of the community.

I would agree this is a work of the Spirit.

Is Jesus talking doctrinal or personal differences? Personally I have always thought He was speaking of personal differences just as Moses and the judges did. I think groups are just as easy to deceive as individuals. Look at the global deception going on out there now. Throughout the OT God never sought consensus when He purposed to do something. Many times Israel’s religious leaders were the cause of sin. God sent the prophets to correct Israel opposing the religious leadership. Do you think the apostles should have to get approval from the high priest to teach the gospel?

Personally something resonates in my spirit. That’s like me trying to explain why I am a Christian and not something else. In my spirit I know that I know. Peter knew Jesus was the Christ only because the Father revealed it to him. I have seen the bible work in my life and the people in the church. I have seen many people healed of bad diseases, demons cast out for real no joke. I know the promises of God are real. Take it for what it’s worth.

 

[Abu]

The myopia that refuses to assent to the mandate of Jesus the Christ clouds judgment on all else concerning the teaching of Jesus.

**All four promises to St Peter alone: **
“You are Peter and on this rock I will build My Church.” (Mt 16:18)
“The gates of hell will not prevail against it.”(Mt 16:18)
“I will give you the keys of the Kingdom of heaven." ( Mt 16:19)
“Whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven.” (Mt 16:19) [Later to the Twelve]

Sole authority:
“Strengthen your brethren.” (Lk 22:32)
“Feed My sheep.”(Jn 21:17).

 

[JRKH]

Well for me I have never seen or audibly heard the voice of God.

Yes - that is the problem for most of us…Yet even if we DID believe we heard clearly from God, could we be sure it is truly Him?
Joseph Smith was convinced that it was God guiding him in founding the Mormon Church.

God can’t and won’t contradict His word would be a starting point.

Agreed - and yet there were those, even among the Christian converts who believed that doing away with the requirement for circumcision etc WAS contradicting God’s word. It was a matter that required the wisdom of the Church in council…
Those in Antioch would not even take Paul’s word for it.

Plus I think God will give you the grace to believe and do what he asks. The bible says to test the spirit to confirm it is of God. 1 John 4:1.

Precisely - test the spirit - Just what Paul did in Galatians.

I don’t know the type of relationship Paul had with God before he was a Christian. Do you have any insight? But we know after he met Jesus his life was never the same again. In the OT few had a personal relationship with God.

No I can’t claim any great insight except to say that Paul, a well educated Pharisee - on fire in service of God - believed himself to be fighting the profound heresy being spread by these followers of “the way”. I believe he took it very personally

Quote JRKH: Now I have repeatedly said - that I believe this is less about asking approval than it is about communication. To be more specific it is about the spirit driven desire to communicate, to compare notes, to correct, to refine, to improve and to synchronize the Gospel message among the leaders and evangelizers of the community.

I would agree this is a work of the Spirit.

Amen…

Is Jesus talking doctrinal or personal differences?

Both if the differences are sufficient to disturb the peace of the Church.

Personally I have always thought He was speaking of personal differences just as Moses and the judges did. I think groups are just as easy to deceive as individuals. Look at the global deception going on out there now. Throughout the OT God never sought consensus when He purposed to do something. Many times Israel’s religious leaders were the cause of sin. God sent the prophets to correct Israel opposing the religious leadership. Do you think the apostles should have to get approval from the high priest to teach the gospel?

In the case of the Apostles and the High priests…as Jesus himself said while He walked with them…“you have something greater here”.

As to the rest…You are right in that groups can also be deceived - though I disagree that they can be as easily deceived as an individual can.

Personally something resonates in my spirit. That’s like me trying to explain why I am a Christian and not something else. In my spirit I know that I know. Peter knew Jesus was the Christ only because the Father revealed it to him. I have seen the bible work in my life and the people in the church. I have seen many people healed of bad diseases, demons cast out for real no joke. I know the promises of God are real. Take it for what it’s worth.

I am happy that you have had these experiences. I too have witnessed the wonders of God’s work in my life and the lives of others.

Peace
James