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SouthpawLink
Guest
Do you doubt the accuracy of the quotes in the linked article?
The plan of salvation includes Muslims? Is Allah the same God as Yaweah?
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gurneyhalleck1
Guest
I concur. I think some Catholics are trying to side-step this passage. Some are saying it’s not infallible, some say it is since it’s in the catechism. Some say it’s much ado about nothing, some try to draw happy-clappy similarities between Islam and Christianity to ease consciences, some try to claim the catechism is giving us apologetics ammo and a way to charitably approach Muslims, some are saying it is actually something we should just shove aside for the greater good. I’m honestly bothered by the way this is treated so lightly. And it is disturbing. Some posters are even saying to just not read this but rather other, older catechisms that are better. This thread shows us that Catholicism isn’t as unified as I have thought and some profess. It is full of opinions and divergent thinking and we can’t even figure out what’s infallible and de fide and what’s not? I’m troubled by this greatly and hope I’m not alone here…
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Carlan
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Reuben,
Thank you for your common sense post.
I do hope all our dear friends will read it once more. Consider it, pray about it and move on in peace!
Carlan
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jam070406
Guest
St. Francis had a desire to be martyed. He not only engaged them but challenged them.
*He set sail with twelve friars from Ancona in June 1219, and came to Damietta on the Nile delta, before which the crusaders were sitting in siege. Francis was profoundly shocked by the dissoluteness and self-seeking of the soldiers of the Cross. Burning with zeal for the conversion of the Saracens, he desired to pass to their camp, though he was warned that there was a price on the head of every Christian. Permission was given him by the papal legate and he went with Brother Illuminato among the infidels, crying out, “Sultan! Sultan!” Being brought before Malek al-Kamil and asked his errand, he said boldly, **“I am sent not by men but by the most high God, to show you and your people the way of salvation by announcing to you the truths of the gospel”. **
Discussion followed, and other audiences. The sultan was somewhat moved and invited him to stay with him. Francis replied, “If you and your people will accept the word of God, I will with joy stay with you. If you yet waver between Christ and Mohammed, cause a fire to be kindled, and I will go into it with your priests that you may see which is the true faith.” The sultan answered that he did not believe any of the imams would be willing to go into the fire, and that he could not accept his condition for fear of upsetting the people. After some days Malek al-Kamil sent Francis back to the camp before Damietta. Disappointed that he could do so little either with the crusaders or their opponents, St. Francis returned to Akka, whence he visited the Holy Places. Then, summoned by an urgent message of distress, he returned to Italy.
(From Butler’s Lives of the Saints, Complete Edition. Edited by Herbert J. Thurston, S.J. and Donald Attwater. 1987. Christian Classics, Westminster, Maryland. Originally published 1756-9. Nihil Obstat and Imprimatur, 1953. Permission to reproduce is pending depending on ability to contact the publisher.)*
(emphasis mine)
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Deconi
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Aww Matey!
My deepest condolences for your loss…from this realm. If a sinner’s prayers have any merit, they are yours and the family’s.
God Bless!
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dzheremi
Guest
Regarding the bold: Is it really true that statements we make about God (who/what He is, who/what He is not…that sort of thing) can ever really qualify as “minor”? I mean, especially in the Catechism, we are seeking a clear exposition of the Christian faith, right? And that must include statements about God that we are to view as anything but “minor” if we are serious about our faith. I am sorry, Reuben, but if statements like “(Muslims) together with us adore the one true God” strike you as minor, then I dunno what to say…if that’s the sort of attitude imbued in Catholics as a result of following the Catechism and the Catholic teachings followed therein, then I am really glad I left the Church, because it certainly doesn’t strike me as being serious about the Christian faith.
I think saying that statements like CCC 841 are “from the devil” would be a bit too hysterical for my taste. I’d prefer it if it were the result of some well-meaning but naive and false ecumenical spirit, but since I didn’t write the Catechism any such speculation isn’t going to amount to much either way. The second statement is definitely right, though. Islam’s Allah is not God. I don’t know why it’s so hard to accept that when Islam itself goes out of its way to say that we are worshiping a false God (or rather, we have made a false God out of Jesus Christ). Do I need to find that “Oh, Cross-Worshipers” video again? It’s a recitation of a poem that is north of 500 years old and has the same tired arguments we’ve been hearing from Islam for 1400 years, and yet the Catechism boldly ignores what Muslims themselves have been saying since the birth of their heretical religion by claiming that they somehow “together with us” worship the same God! I guess the Vatican knows Islam better than Muslims do? Or maybe, just maybe, the Vatican and hence most Catholics are in complete denial of what it is they’re praising and seeking illusory “common ground” with.
What is the point of that? There are two ways to read this statement, and they both stink to high heaven:
- 841 is simply affirming what Muslims say they believe without agreeing with them on the truth of that belief;
- 841 is “taking their word for it”, in so far as it is apparently good enough to make a bunch of ridiculous claims that are against Christ and the Christian religion so long as you do so in the context of a seemingly monotheistic religion.
Horseshoes and hand-grenades, my friend. “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes through the Father except through me” seems to be perverted once Islam comes up. Why? Jesus said it. I believe it. I think you HAVE to believe it to be a Christian. Jesus said that, not “I am the way and the truth and the life, unless you disagree for some reason.”
The reality is that a half-truth is a whole lie. It is not good enough when discussing matters of God and the true religion (Christianity).
So it shouldn’t be in the Catechism. There is no reason for it to be there.
There is a misconception, it seems, among those in this thread who hold CCC 841 to be a true and useful statement that anything that dissents from it is by its very nature aggressive and perhaps un-Christian. Frankly, that’s BS. I’ve posted this elsewhere, but since it fits here too, perhaps those who are holding that only overly warm’n’fuzzy relations with Islam are the way to evangelize Muslims ought to read The Case of the Monk of Bêt Hãlê and a Muslim Emir (the earliest Syriac text to dispute Islam on apologetic grounds). It is certainly a model for engagement that does not compromise the truth of God for anything. I would be perfectly fine if future printings of the CCC would replace the awful heresy of CCC 841 with excerpts from it instead.
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panner
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You are not aloneI concur. I think some Catholics are trying to side-step this passage. Some are saying it’s not infallible, some say it is since it’s in the catechism. Some say it’s much ado about nothing, some try to draw happy-clappy similarities between Islam and Christianity to ease consciences, some try to claim the catechism is giving us apologetics ammo and a way to charitably approach Muslims, some are saying it is actually something we should just shove aside for the greater good. I’m honestly bothered by the way this is treated so lightly. And it is disturbing. Some posters are even saying to just not read this but rather other, older catechisms that are better. This thread shows us that Catholicism isn’t as unified as I have thought and some profess. It is full of opinions and divergent thinking and we can’t even figure out what’s infallible and de fide and what’s not? I’m troubled by this greatly and hope I’m not alone here…
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gurneyhalleck1
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Thank you so much, Deconi. Being back in the Catholic Church we went not only to Christmas Mass, but the 26th the Holy Family Feast, then today for Daily Mass to offer up intentions for my grandmother, Mary Lou. Father Rod blessed a candle for me and I lit it in the Marian chapel then I went over to the Perpetual Adoration Chapel and prayed before Our Lord for her and wrote a petition. Being back in the Catholic Church these things are all of huge comfort.
Please keep my grandmother in your prayers if you don’t mind. I’m asking everyone to pray for her. Thanks so much for your post, Deconi
Please keep my grandmother in your prayers if you don’t mind. I’m asking everyone to pray for her. Thanks so much for your post, Deconi
Aww Matey!
My deepest condolences for your loss…from this realm. If a sinner’s prayers have any merit, they are yours and the family’s.
God Bless!
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gurneyhalleck1
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dzheremi
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Well, what about them? I am glad I am not the only one wondering these things…
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gurneyhalleck1
Guest
I’m just kidding for goodness sakes. I’m no fan of Miguel, don’t worry. Anyone who would convert races, do the creepy stuff he did, and write some of those nauseating tunes, I can’t stomach LOL…
Besides, my boys Paich, Porcaro, Phillinganes, and Lukather of Toto deserve a ton of credit for Thriller, more than Michael as they did most of the work on it!
Besides, my boys Paich, Porcaro, Phillinganes, and Lukather of Toto deserve a ton of credit for Thriller, more than Michael as they did most of the work on it!
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gurneyhalleck1
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First of all, Lukather is a genius. I saw him live in 2007 with Toto. Wow, jaw-dropper. I am a guitar player (amateur since I was 13, Strat man here) and the man impressed me thoroughly!
Why doesn’t 841 trouble you?
Mental reservation?
Why doesn’t 841 trouble you?
Mental reservation?
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JohnnyReb
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Shudders…Isn’t that a Michael Jackson tune?
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Reuben_J
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Hi. I have gone through your post and feel that this topic is being dragged into a quagmire for something that it is not. At the risk of sounding condescending and that’s not my intention at all, I would say that you are attacking something that’s not there. So I am not commenting on your opinion about the Church because it is not true; you are merely making a deduction because you have problem with 841. CCC 841 is not about whether Islam is right or not.
In order to avoid any misunderstanding that can arise from this discussion, let me say that I have no problem with all that you said about Islam. In that case you are right and you can speak for many of us as far as our disagreement with Islam is concerned.
But here we are talking about the CCC. What is actually the CCC? Non-Catholics often do not get it right as to how Catholics should use it. It is just a teaching on how to practice the Christian faith and in some cases it is about guideline.
Those like the 841 is about **our relationship with the world at large **- our relationship with our separated brethrens, other religions and even non-religions. Catholics would know, if they follow the CCC teaching, on how to carry out this relationship properly. Islam is one of them and in our world it is a reality that needs to be addressed. The CCC addresses that.
Relationship in the Christian sense is how we identify with people. With Catholics we identify with them as brothers and sisters in the Lord because of the same belief we have and we can forge on with this relationship in a more intimate way. With our separate brethrens, they are our brothers and sisters in the Lord but because of some differences in how we perceive this belief to be we would not be able to forge this relationship in the same way as we do with other Catholics; that is, we cannot share the table is proclaiming this belief until they accept exactly what we believe but nevertheless we strive where we have in common to achieve solidarity in the Lord. With Muslims we still have in common in that we worship the same Creator and in that we forge ahead to live the righteousness that part of the belief that leads us to but we cannot identify with them intimately in faith until they share the common belief that we have.
You see, this is about relationship. In a nutshell the CCC teaches us not to do what **Pastor Jones **did. Pope John Paul II showed us in how to deal with Muslims as St Francis of Assisi did too. The famous or rather the infamous JP II kissing the Quran is not a sign of weakness but a sign of a person who has that supreme confidence of his own faith that he was able to do that with the Quran – respecting their belief. Until we can take this attitude we will not make any headway with Muslims. Catholics can show their sincerity by showing them that this attitude is not a fluke but to be found in their central teaching about life, in the CCC.
What would an ordinary Catholic attitude would be about Islam or if being challenged? 841 tells us.
Picture this when you talk with a Muslim: One can say, “Your Allah is a Devil and your revelations came from a Devil”. Where does this will lead to?
OTOH we can say this, “Since we worship the same God, let’s see where we can share what we have in common or where our difference lies”. Facts will speak for themselves then.
God bless.
Reuben
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JohnnyReb
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As I understand it, 841 does not teach that Muslims are saved by virtue of the fact that they are Muslims, or even because they acknowledge God as creator. In itself 841 is extremely troubling, but when I read further, I see the church making it clear that it has a missionary mandate to preach the Gospel to all (849).
If it did teach that Muslims are saved for reasons listed above, its troubling. None the less, is 841 and infallible teaching? Muslims do not worship the same God as we do. Our God is Triune, Father Son and Holy Spirit. Allah is not like the true God as revealed in scripture.
If it did teach that Muslims are saved for reasons listed above, its troubling. None the less, is 841 and infallible teaching? Muslims do not worship the same God as we do. Our God is Triune, Father Son and Holy Spirit. Allah is not like the true God as revealed in scripture.
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Reuben_J
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Thanks. Isn’t that’s what we are called to?
If anything it is to know that St. Francis was perhaps foremost among the saints that really had a meaningful encounter with Muslims. While the Crusaders used the swords, he stood out by faith. What the Crusaders could not achieve, he at least softened the heart of the sultan to be lenient to the vanquished. The Catholic Church comes with traditions and St. Francis perhaps was in the forefront in showing us how to deal with Muslims.
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Reuben_J
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Thanks for acknowledging my post.Reuben,
Thank you for your common sense post.
I do hope all our dear friends will read it once more. Consider it, pray about it and move on in peace!
Why CCC841 is so problematic for my of us perhaps it is because of Islam itself, our (Christianity) past history in our encounter them (which can bring a sense of feeling ‘what if’ and its seemingly usurping Christianity with its presentation of half truth and the violence that we suffer at their hands.
These can cause all kind of reactions from us and that makes it difficult to deal with. The Church nevertheless has a position on them and that’s should be our starting point in dealing with them.
God bless.
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Hiskid1973
Guest
What I find interesting is how islam fits into the end times scenario before the return of Christ.
Iminajihad himself is waiting for his madhi to return to straighten out Jesus…
Iminajihad himself is waiting for his madhi to return to straighten out Jesus…
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dzheremi
Guest
Opinion is not really one of those “true” or “false” things. Obviously I agree with my opinion on the Catholic Church and its communion (and I have met a few ex-Catholic, now Orthodox Christians who have made similar statements, so I know it’s not just me), but that’s neither here nor there.
Like Gurney, I am not seeing the “apologetic ammo” (I enjoy this phrase – thanks, Gurney!) that Catholics see in CCC 841. It is quite clearly a declarative statement. I don’t think anyone in this thread has claimed that CCC 841 does not address Islam; the problem is in the manner in which it does so.
Nobody in this thread is suggesting anything like that, and you can disagree with CCC 841 without supporting the idiocy of Mr. Jones. This is a definite misdirect.
And what about St. John Damascene? The unnamed monk of Bet Hale? Why is their model of straightforward, unambiguous statements so terrible? I rather prefer it to JP II.
I strongly disagree with this analysis, but then you know what they say about opinions…
Yeah, um…or we can not kiss the Qur’an…there’s always that option, too…
Why? Why should I pretend like the only options are kissing the Qur’an (metaphorically or literally, to “show respect”) or being a jerk? I don’t like these false dichotomies you are setting up, Rueben. I think they hurt your position, even though I know you are sincere in holding it.
Again, these are NOT the only options. The option I would choose, not given so far, does not involve what I would see as lying (telling Muslims we worship the same God), but instead involves telling the truth about Christ and Christianity. Note that this does not require me to make positive or even any other kind of declarative statements about Islam like CCC 841. I could instead say (and have instead said) “The Qur’an says _____. The Bible says _____. I believe in the Bible because _____.”
Very simple, very straight-forward, serious, and based on substantial issues. No need to kiss anything, and yet also no need to be a jerk just for the sake of it. This is the only model of interfaith dialogue I will follow.
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gurneyhalleck1
Guest
I’m not a bishop, a theologian, a theological expert, but this is how I would’ve written it:
Islam has many positive attributes with which Christians can identify: it is monotheistic, it has many similarities with the Holy Bible, and Muslims have a high regard for Jesus and Mary. While Muslims are defective in that they mischarcterize Jesus, see salvation history through a veil, and Allah is not the same God as that of the Christian faith, there is great opportunity to mission to our Muslim neighbors and through God’s mercy may they find salvation through a fuller understanding of who Jesus Christ really is, truly God, truly Man, truly God’s only begotten son. It should be the vocation of Christians to witness to our Muslim friends and draw them closer to the salvation that only Christ can give us. Through invincible ignorance it is possible for Muslims to possibly achieve salvation but no matter what they will be saved through the only name that saves----Jesus Christ.
I’m not purporting to be an expert here but why write something so vague, given to debate, and easily-misunderstood? The fact that we are debating it here and that there have been past threads that go on FOREVER is proof positive that this is a controversial, poorly-written piece.
Islam has many positive attributes with which Christians can identify: it is monotheistic, it has many similarities with the Holy Bible, and Muslims have a high regard for Jesus and Mary. While Muslims are defective in that they mischarcterize Jesus, see salvation history through a veil, and Allah is not the same God as that of the Christian faith, there is great opportunity to mission to our Muslim neighbors and through God’s mercy may they find salvation through a fuller understanding of who Jesus Christ really is, truly God, truly Man, truly God’s only begotten son. It should be the vocation of Christians to witness to our Muslim friends and draw them closer to the salvation that only Christ can give us. Through invincible ignorance it is possible for Muslims to possibly achieve salvation but no matter what they will be saved through the only name that saves----Jesus Christ.
I’m not purporting to be an expert here but why write something so vague, given to debate, and easily-misunderstood? The fact that we are debating it here and that there have been past threads that go on FOREVER is proof positive that this is a controversial, poorly-written piece.
Opinion is not really one of those “true” or “false” things. Obviously I agree with my opinion on the Catholic Church and its communion (and I have met a few ex-Catholic, now Orthodox Christians who have made similar statements, so I know it’s not just me), but that’s neither here nor there.
Like Gurney, I am not seeing the “apologetic ammo” (I enjoy this phrase – thanks, Gurney!) that Catholics see in CCC 841. It is quite clearly a declarative statement. I don’t think anyone in this thread has claimed that CCC 841 does not address Islam; the problem is in the manner in which it does so.
Nobody in this thread is suggesting anything like that, and you can disagree with CCC 841 without supporting the idiocy of Mr. Jones. This is a definite misdirect.
And what about St. John Damascene? The unnamed monk of Bet Hale? Why is their model of straightforward, unambiguous statements so terrible? I rather prefer it to JP II.
I strongly disagree with this analysis, but then you know what they say about opinions…
Yeah, um…or we can not kiss the Qur’an…there’s always that option, too…
Why? Why should I pretend like the only options are kissing the Qur’an (metaphorically or literally, to “show respect”) or being a jerk? I don’t like these false dichotomies you are setting up, Rueben. I think they hurt your position, even though I know you are sincere in holding it.
Again, these are NOT the only options. The option I would choose, not given so far, does not involve what I would see as lying (telling Muslims we worship the same God), but instead involves telling the truth about Christ and Christianity. Note that this does not require me to make positive or even any other kind of declarative statements about Islam like CCC 841. I could instead say (and have instead said) “The Qur’an says _____. The Bible says _____. I believe in the Bible because _____.”
Very simple, very straight-forward, serious, and based on substantial issues. No need to kiss anything, and yet also no need to be a jerk just for the sake of it. This is the only model of interfaith dialogue I will follow.
- Status