The plan of salvation includes Muslims? Is Allah the same God as Yaweah?

  • Thread starter Thread starter gurneyhalleck1
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
Dittos dzheremi. I cannot swallow it. Basically everything in the catechism is *de fide *really. As an Anglican I have been able to totally jump on the fundamentals and the essence of Truth in light of the historical Church and Holy Scriptures. But now I find myself, in trying in earnest to return to Catholicism at Christmas, already floundering. The catechism has two sections that SERIOUSLY trouble my conscience: indulgences and the Islam nonsense. Both smack of humanity and not God. Catholicism has had plenty of moments where they got cozy or overly-friendly with Islam and I cringe.

Islam, in my opinion, and that of my wife, is purely diabolic. I think back to the movie “The Exorcist” to a point where Father Merrin says to Father Kerras, “Do not listen to what Satan tells you. Do not respond. He will mix truth with lies to confuse you. He is the Father of Lies.” It may be a corny reference to a horror movie, but it’s very true. Islam mixes the truth of monotheism and “some” stolen-from-Judaism history and theology that is sound, but for every one truth there are twenty lies. The greatest, most evil lie is that Jesus is not The Son of the Living God. God is not a Holy Trinity? PUKE

The worst part of the catechism’s statement is: “in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims.” I loathe the langauge there. It’s almost as if they have the first ticket in line outside of Catholicism.

I wouldn’t be surprised if the Catholic Church tried to butter up Islam in 2010. Why? Because radical Islam is CRAZY. They’re terrorists and out of control. They’re threatening global armageddon so people are always afraid of fatwas and threats by Imams and loons. But the scary thing is, this catechetical reference comes from LUMEN GENTIUM! LG was proclaimed in 1964!? Radical Islam and the modern terrorist blackmail setup wasn’t fully come to fruition back then. It was a joke compared to now. So the Catholic Church actually believes this stuff. And they must’ve felt strongly enough about it to stick it in the catechism for goodness sakes!? :mad:

Indulgences actually bother me as much if not more even than the Islam mumbo jumbo.

Kate (my wife) and I were joking that this might be the shortest reversion in history. She already wanted to go back to our Anglican parish this morning and I had to confess, I thirsted for it already! I’m probably just not cut out for Catholicism. 😦
dzheremi said:
Sure, Muslims can be saved, same as anyone – but if/when they are, it is despite Islam, not because of it or through it. CCC 841 is a nonsense, meaningless statement; complete claptrap that shouldn’t even be in the CCC in the first place. It is symptomatic of the many reasons that I eventually came to realize some time ago that the RCC is not the place for me, so I can definitely relate to you on that level, Gurney.
Click to expand...
 
Lets be honest… Muslims were included in the “PLAN” of salvation just like every other human being on the face of the earth. The Catholic Church is the Universal Church which is the temple of the Holy Spirit.

All were invited (especially the Muslims who have partial truth) -but few will accept their invitation…

The Church does acknowledge what a shame it is that Islam is so confused.
 
But the catechism isn’t saying that they’re just vaguely in the “plan” just like any schmo on the street. They’re saying that, because they’re Abrahamic, they are “first” among people who acknowledge the Creator, according to 841. It says that they worship the same God “together with us” and that is indeed troubling. It is elevating them to a special place and I think this statement “plan of salvation” is more than just a vague recognition that they’re possibly, remotely able to be saved. It sounds far too charitable to a diabolical faith. I find it highly troubling.

Perhaps its the evangelical in me that thinks of

**“Whoesover loves me will be loved by my Father…” John 14:21

“There is no salvation through anyone else, nor is there any other name under heaven given to the human race by which we are to be saved.” Acts 4:12**

So I find the outreach to non-Christian religions troubling in the first place, but to Islam even more as it is a religion that is hell-bent on the conversion of Christianity (the “People of the Book”) and they turn Jesus into a sock puppet who will actually, ironically, condemn Christians on judgment day!?

The Catholic Church, if it holds the Truth, would step out and squash any notions of salvation for Islam. It is a diabolical attempt to divert people from the true faith of Jesus Christ.

There is no salvation through anyone else, nor is there any other name under heaven given to the human race by which we are to be saved Acts tells us. Makes me wonder which part of that the catechism doesn’t understand? :confused:
TEPO said:
Lets be honest… Muslims were included in the “PLAN” of salvation just like every other human being on the face of the earth. The Catholic Church is the Universal Church which is the temple of the Holy Spirit.

All were invited (especially the Muslims who have partial truth) -but few will accept their invitation…

The Church does acknowledge what a shame it is that Islam is so confused.
Click to expand...
 
The whole idea of “partial truth” that substantiates the Roman Catholic viewpoint towards other religions is deeply disturbing to me. I could understand it, in a way, when I was still loyal to Rome, but thinking about it for a long time while in the process of trying to figure out where I should be has ultimately led me to reject it.

The idea that other Christian sects and even non-Christian religions might not always teach things that are in conflict with Christianity’s moral teachings is true, but not illuminating in any way.To my way of thinking, Manuel II Palaeologos (and, by extension, Pope Benedict XVI) gave Islam all the consideration it deserves from Christians by pointing out that all the things that Muhammad brought that were new were/are horrible. The “good” things in Islam are in no way unique to it; in fact, they are in every way dwarfed by the light of the true teachings of God, which are in Christianity alone. I think the way that the Vatican creates this kind of “degrees of truth” construct for the sake of appealing to those outside of it is very deceptive and ultimately can cause problems. Someone here (SSTeacher? Hesychios? I know it was one of the Orthodox posters) once told a story of a group of Anglicans who wanted to come into Orthodoxy. They asked the clergymen at the church they were interested in about what they could keep from their old tradition while still remaining faithful the Eastern Orthodox faith. They were told that, no, they could not keep their particular Anglican ways and prayers, and must adopt Byzantine praxis, and given a strong argument as to why this was absolutely necessary. If I’m remembering correctly, they were pleased to hear these answers, as they had the feeling that they were receiving guidance from a true and strong authority.

How much more resolute must we be in telling the truth of Christ, that salvation is found ONLY through Him? I cannot imagine pleading on the day of judgment that I did my best to win mercy for souls by recognizing some “half truth” mixed in with large amounts of falsehood, and hoping that this would be enough to please the Lord. In fact, looked at from that perspective, coming before Christ (as confession occurs in the Byzantine churches I have attended), I can’t imagine doing anything but grieving for every single time I recognized the “good” in Islam, because such hollow pleasantries extended to Christ-deniers is always at the expense of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. I know I have done this in the past when trying to follow Rome’s ways. God have mercy, God have mercy, God have mercy… 😦
 
the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham
Click to expand...
If you read the part of the quotation above, you will see that the Church has carefully worded the statement. The Church does not teach that the Muslims worship the same God as us; the Church teaches that the Muslims themselves profess to hold the faith of Abraham. The Muslims profess to hold the faith of Abraham, but that doesn’t mean they do. The Church has never said the Muslims hold the faith of Abraham; the Church has just acknowledged that Muslims themselves profess to hold the faith of Abraham. After acknowledging the Islam’s claim to hold the faith of Abraham, the Church then acknowledged the fact that Islam is a monotheistic religion. There is nothing heretical in the statement but it can be interpreted in a heretical way.

This statement comes from Vatican II. I fully accept Vatican II but I have serious problems with ambiguous statements such as the one concerning Islam because they can be interpreted in many different ways. I think the Church needs to issue clarifications and authoritative interpretations of Vatican II.
 
Dempsey1919 said:
If you read the part of the quotation above, you will see that the Church has carefully worded the statement. The Church does not teach that the Muslims worship the same God as us; the Church teaches that the Muslims themselves profess to hold the faith of Abraham. The Muslims profess to hold the faith of Abraham, but that doesn’t mean they do.
Click to expand...
So it is an insult, really. Even worse than nonsense (though I think it certainly qualifies as that, too). In effect, the RCC is saying “Yes, we recognize that this is what Muslims think they are all about, but we know better/think they’re wrong.” So…why is this statement even in the CCC in the first place? An exposition of the Christian faith, it isn’t.
 
benidict said:
the Jews and Christains worship the tetragramitan. the yod he vav he. the unpronouncable name. the Muslims Worship Sin the moon god. whom they also call Allah. there is no similarity between the two. despite this, i believe there are Muslims seeking God with all their heart soul and mind, and i believe that Christ reveals himself even up to the point of their death. and gives them a choice to believe on him. i believe there will be those known as Muslims on this earth, who will be in heaven with us. i do not believe that those who seek God with their whole heart will be dissapointed. this is the way i reconcile this teaching in the CCC my friend. i have a problem with it as well. Peace and Merry Christmas 🙂
Click to expand...
Certainly would appear so, I believe its called Christian heresy.

Lets see today alone…

Central Nigeria Muslim violence killed 32 Christains

Northern Nigeria Muslim violence claimed 6 Christians

Phillippines during Christmas Mass eleven killed including a Priest, in a Muslim al-Quada linked bombing.

Hamas issue warnings Threaten Israel!!

Khar, Pakistan female Muslim armed with grenades and wrapped in explosives performs a suicide bombing in a crowd of 300. Killing at least 45.

“We come in peace” “We are a peaceful religion” And where is this, what part of the world?

Ignorance and Learned Behavior are not excuses for Murder. Where does that thinking originate? What world is that?
 
In many respects, Muslims are closer to us than (modern) Jews!

The CCC has it correct.

:cool:
 
So it is an insult, really. Even worse than nonsense (though I think it certainly qualifies as that, too). In effect, the RCC is saying “Yes, we recognize that this is what Muslims think they are all about, but we know better/think they’re wrong.” So…why is this statement even in the CCC in the first place? An exposition of the Christian faith, it isn’t.
Click to expand...
It’s far from an insult; it is a statement of truth. The Muslims profess to hold the faith of Abraham and the Catechism acknowledges this. The Catechism mentions Muslims because the plan of Salvation includes all people, including those who follow the religion of Muhammad. This does not mean that Islam saves souls because it doesn’t. Salvation comes from Christ alone.
 
Dempsey1919 said:
It’s far from an insult; it is a statement of truth. The Muslims profess to hold the faith of Abraham and the Catechism acknowledges this. The Catechism mentions Muslims because the plan of Salvation includes all people, including those who follow the religion of Muhammad. This does not mean that Islam saves souls because it doesn’t. Salvation comes from Christ alone.
Click to expand...
Yes the path is clear cut. The Kingdom is not of this world.

Baptism and accepting Jesus Christ as your Savior is the first step.

There are not different kinds of Salvation. There are not different roads that lead to Heaven. Different paths that arrive at the same point is false teaching.

What good is to it, to own the entire world, and be condemned to Hell? Satan showed Christ all the Kingdoms of earth and told him they were his to own? He had no desire to rule this world. This was not his purpose or desire.
 
But what’s the point, with all due respect? Dzheremi has it right; why mention Islam and how it “purports” to save but can’t? That’s a waste of time? Or conversely why laud it as Abrahamic and thus is “first among whom” share with us in the same God? Why does the catechism and Lumen Gentium hold up Islam and bolster it so much putting it not on a par with Christianity but putting it dang close? They give it so much credit and the “plan of salvation” includes them? What does that mean, for goodness sakes? They don’t mean it in a roundabout way. It seems to be saying that by nature of the Abrahamic nature of Judaism and Islam, they have a better or easier chance of being saved than others. And that they’re not Catholic but very, very close brethren. That’s my reading of it. To me, any other reading has a “what’s the point?” attached? :confused:
GaryTaylor said:
Yes the path is clear cut. The Kingdom is not of this world.

Baptism and accepting Jesus Christ as your Savior is the first step.

There are not different kinds of Salvation. There are not different roads that lead to Heaven. Different paths that arrive at the same point is false teaching.

What good is to it, to own the entire world, and be condemned to Hell? Satan showed Christ all the Kingdoms of earth and told him they were his to own? He had no desire to rule this world. This was not his purpose or desire.
Click to expand...
 
I couldn’t disagree with you more. I think you’re referring to “nominal” Jews. Orthodox Jews have far more in common heritage-wise and theologically-speaking than Muslims. I can’t for the life of me understand where you’re coming from in saying this? :confused:
Deconi said:
In many respects, Muslims are closer to us than (modern) Jews!

The CCC has it correct.

:cool:
Click to expand...
 
Why does the catechism and Lumen Gentium hold up Islam and bolster it so much putting it not on a par with Christianity but putting it dang close? They give it so much credit and the “plan of salvation” includes them? What does that mean, for goodness sakes?
Click to expand...
In answer to your questions, I would like to say that I understand your problems with this particular verse of Lumen Gentium. I don’t know why the Council Fathers chose to mention Islam but I do know that they did not teach that Islam brings salvation.

I believe his particular verse of Lumen Gentium is one reason why the Church must issue clarifications on Vatican II. There is no heresy in Vatican II, but the documents can be interpreted in a heretical fashion. The statement concerning Islam proves that the teachings of Vatican II can be interpreted in many different ways. The writings of Vatican II are very ambiguous and are open to many different interpretations.
 
gurneyhalleck1 said:
"The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind’s judge on the last day."

I know somewhere in the sacred vaults of CAF this issue has been debated. I couldn’t find it though. My hiney hasn’t been in a Catholic pew for more than two days and when re-reading the catechism, I run across section 841, quoted above.

We are told in Scripture that whomever denies the Son, denies the Father. This is the case with Islam. Those who know me on here well enough know that I rarely, I mean RARELY even mention Islam. But when I come across this in the catechism (along with indulgences and so forth :() I breathe a heavy, heavy sigh.

This is a type of universalism, a type of openness to other religions that I think crosses the line. I’m seriously concerned about it. Allah is a distortion of the historical Old Testament God we worship. It is like looking at God through five layers of cellophane. Not only is the lineage with Ishmael a distortion and the view of Original Sin and salvation history, but God’s personality and his very heart are warped in the Koran to be something He is not. How can we say that Allah and Our God are the same? And especially in light of how the Koran totally rejects and blasts the concept of Trinity as evil, that only further alienates identification between the two?

I’m pretty much fresh back in the CC after a long walk in the wilderness. It’s stuff like this that keeps making me walk.

I’m sure this has probably been debated but, for my sake, can someone explain a way to deal with this horrible part of the catechism? I’m dying here…
Click to expand...
 
QUOTE=gurneyhalleck1;7395934]"The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind’s judge on the last day."
Click to expand...
I know somewhere in the sacred vaults of CAF this issue has been debated. I couldn’t find it though. My hiney hasn’t been in a Catholic pew for more than two days and when re-reading the catechism, I run across section 841, quoted above.
Click to expand...
We are told in Scripture that whomever denies the Son, denies the Father. This is the case with Islam. Those who know me on here well enough know that I rarely, I mean RARELY even mention Islam. But when I come across this in the catechism (along with indulgences and so forth :() I breathe a heavy, heavy sigh.
Click to expand...
This is a type of universalism, a type of openness to other religions that I think crosses the line. I’m seriously concerned about it. Allah is a distortion of the historical Old Testament God we worship. It is like looking at God through five layers of cellophane. Not only is the lineage with Ishmael a distortion and the view of Original Sin and salvation history, but God’s personality and his very heart are warped in the Koran to be something He is not. How can we say that Allah and Our God are the same? And especially in light of how the Koran totally rejects and blasts the concept of Trinity as evil, that only further alienates identification between the two?
Click to expand...
I’m pretty much fresh back in the CC after a long walk in the wilderness. It’s stuff like this that keeps making me walk.
Click to expand...
I’m sure this has probably been debated but, for my sake, can someone explain a way to deal with this horrible part of the catechism? I’m dying here…
Click to expand...
So I haven’t read the whole conversation - I’ve got a cranky babe so I’m writing while I have a moment:

It seems to me that there are two things going on here. One is the statement that Muslims worship the same God; the other is that they are part of the plan of salvation.

I do think that it is true to say the worship the same God, in the same way that the Greens Paul encountred did, or Aristotle did, or a man on a desert island contemplating infinity might. The God we worship is the First Cause, the One, the Prime Mover, The Beginning and the End. When someone sees Him, even if they have only seen that he is the one sourse of all on which we all depend, they have seen God.

One of God’s characteristics is his singleness, his being the unique source, and he doesn’t share that characteristic with anyone or anything else. So anyone who recognizes that characteristic has recognized part of God. Who could they mistaken him for? Some other primal unified source of Being? So I would include much of the ancient pagan world, Jews, Muslims, Deists, Hindus, maybe some Buddhists. (Interestingly, Mormons wouldn’t fall into this category.)

It may be that they have not figured out anything else, or they have added on stuff that isn’t true, or even really opposite to something about God. In the latter case, they are in some sense denying God while having recognized him at the same time. I think that this is perhaps the way to understand the statement that those who deny Christ are also denying God. A denial is not about something you don’t really know or understand - it is like Peter’s denial - an act of will when we know better, or ought to know better. But while we could say that Peter denied Christ (and the Father) could we say that he worshiped a different God? No - that is the tragedy, and that is where the sin really lies.

I think that this position is well represented in Scripture, and also historically. Thomas never seems to have considered that Aristotle was talking about a different God than the ones Christians worship, nor did he seem to think the Islamic translations and commentaries he used did. Augustine clearly thought the Platonists were talking about the same God, though he was very hard on them for denying Christ. And there is actually historical precedent for considering Islam to be a Christian heresy, which would be an impossible position if they were talking about a different God.

The second point, on the plan for salvation. Well, I think that everyone is part of the plan for salvation. And there is indeed much of what we believe that they accept. Most individuals Muslims believe what they do for the same kinds of reasons Christians do, and so perhaps that makes the average Muslim really quite close to an individual Christian in many ways. So maybe those are the people we need to be talking to in areas like mission work, or just praying for.
 
gurneyhalleck1 said:
"The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind’s judge on the last day."
Click to expand...
Let’s analyze this carefully, gurney, and see what Holy Mother Church is teaching :

**Line 1 **
"The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator…

Of course it [the plan of salvation, which includes everyone, and also everything] also includes those who acknowledge a Creator. The very term, “plan of salvation,” is inherently universal in respects to time, places, and peoples. So far all Holy Mother Church is teaching us is that the Muslim peoples are not outside of God’s plan : Such a belief is impossible (God is the Creator of all nature, and hence of course the Maker of every man, woman, and child) because it would deny God’s Sovereignty over any particular group of people, whereas in Truth only people themselves can only imagine, fancy, presume or pretend to be outside or beyond the One God’s Rule and Dominion.

Line 2
"…in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims…

I agree wholeheartedly here : Muslims are in the first place amongst those (other than Christians) who aknowledge the Creator. It would be absurd for anyone to argue that Islam denies the (singular) Creator : it does not deny this, and in fact teaches this. Both Christians and Muslims confess that God is the sole and actual Creator of the Universe.

Line 3
"…these * profess to hold the faith of Abraham…

Of course, and obviously.

Notice the essential word used here, “these profess to hold,” which is an observational truth. Holy Mother Church would be lying (God forbid) if she were to teach that Muslims do not profess to hold the faith of Abraham.

Line 4
"…and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind’s judge on the last day.

Now here we get into the rocky ground. Neither you nor I are able to search the hearts and minds of men to know who or what they truly adore, but I believe Holy Mother Church is given this charism, especially when exercising Her Magisterium [teaching-office]. Holy Mother Church is teaching us that authentic Muslims * “together with us… adore,” i) “the one,” ii) “merciful God,” iii) who is also, “mankind’s judge on the last day.” Naturally, the Church would have to believe and demonstrate that Muslims believe in all three of these characterstics/points, but this is readily and easily gathered from Islam. The affirmatively stated observation, “together with us,” shows where we [Catholics and Mulsims] are in agreement - beyond or outside of this stated agreement we [Catholics] cannot, at least officially, be said to do anything “together” with the Muslims : at least we cannot say so while basing ourselves on the Catechism. Holy Mother Church is teaching her children the Truth about Islam, presumably so those children can understand our relationship with Islam better, and working on this shared ground with the Muslims begin to lay a foundation for : evangelization, mutual cooperation toward the common good, and even toward the Muslim’s ultimate conversion, among possibly innumerable other potential goods in keeping with the Church’s mission.

In conclusion :*
There is nothing obviously heterodox or false about this teaching of the Church unless one imbues it with notions and interpretations of their own making or keeping. Like much of the Catechism, it is stated in the positive judgement rather than the negative, but nonetheless still at least implies the negative judgement, which can be made by inference (i.e., drawn not from what is said, but rather from what is not being said.)

Pax,
Tim*
 
Dempsey1919 said:
It’s far from an insult; it is a statement of truth. The Muslims profess to hold the faith of Abraham and the Catechism acknowledges this. The Catechism mentions Muslims because the plan of Salvation includes all people, including those who follow the religion of Muhammad. This does not mean that Islam saves souls because it doesn’t. Salvation comes from Christ alone.
Click to expand...
By highlighting that it is only the fact that they profess such (a roundabout way of saying that what they profess is not the truth), it is nothing but insulting nonsense. Really, what is the point of having this in the CCC? Any follower of any religious belief must, by virtue of their belief in it, profess that it is true, and hence what it says about salvation (or whatever the ultimate aim of the religion is) must be true. So why did the Vatican single out Islam and shower it with backhanded praises like this? Why not also include native African or American religions? They generally have some kind of supreme god, too, so what is said about Islam could apply to them, with about the same amount of creative thinking needed to paint Islam in any sort of positive light as the CCC stupidly does.

With regard to worshiping the same God as Christians: Someone is making false claims about God, and it isn’t Christianity. This whole “correct by default because they’re monotheists*” view is highly problematic. There are, after all, other monotheistic religions – why are THEY not “first among” the believers in the one true God? Sikhism and Zoroastrianism are two other monotheistic religions that could have been mentioned, and yet presumably were not because the writers of the Catechism were not familiar with them, or their low numbers don’t necessitate that the Vatican play nice with them as it does with Islam. So it is either ignorance or politics that has put this faith-destroying passage into the CCC.

*- but are they? The “shahada” (Islamic creed) is not correct if faith in Muhammad is not mentioned, and Islamic hagiography of Muhammad (to say nothing of all the times that he is associated with God in the Qur’an: God and his messenger…) can be argued to, in effect, deify the man through the back door. This is vociferously denied by mainstream Islam, which nonetheless apparently has no problems saying that Muhammad is pre-existent, or that the Qur’an is pre-existent, uncreated (in the way that we would understand to refer to God) but somehow not God. Islam’s monotheism is very strange that way…
 
=gurneyhalleck1;7395934]"The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind’s judge on the last day."
Click to expand...
I know somewhere in the sacred vaults of CAF this issue has been debated. I couldn’t find it though. My hiney hasn’t been in a Catholic pew for more than two days and when re-reading the catechism, I run across section 841, quoted above.
Click to expand...
We are told in Scripture that whomever denies the Son, denies the Father. This is the case with Islam. Those who know me on here well enough know that I rarely, I mean RARELY even mention Islam. But when I come across this in the catechism (along with indulgences and so forth :() I breathe a heavy, heavy sigh.
Click to expand...
This is a type of universalism, a type of openness to other religions that I think crosses the line. I’m seriously concerned about it. Allah is a distortion of the historical Old Testament God we worship. It is like looking at God through five layers of cellophane. Not only is the lineage with Ishmael a distortion and the view of Original Sin and salvation history, but God’s personality and his very heart are warped in the Koran to be something He is not. How can we say that Allah and Our God are the same? And especially in light of how the Koran totally rejects and blasts the concept of Trinity as evil, that only further alienates identification between the two?
Click to expand...
I’m pretty much fresh back in the CC after a long walk in the wilderness. It’s stuff like this that keeps making me walk.
Click to expand...
I’m sure this has probably been debated but, for my sake, can someone explain a way to deal with this horrible part of the catechism? I’m dying here…
Click to expand...
The Catholic Churches position of “oneness” with Muslims has as it’s foundation our heritage of 'Father Abraham." However this does not extend to beleif in a common God.

The Bible, Old and New Testaments are quite clear on the beleif of One God [Triune]. In that Muslems do not hold to that singular truth; one can reasonably question the odds of there salvation.

In there favor is the KEY condition of “opportunity” to actually Know our God. Because it is not taught to hem, many PERHAPS do not have this essential opportunity?

At any rate, it’s in God’s Merciful hands. Isaiah 55 tells us that God’s Wy’s ARE NOT our way…Let us pray!
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top