The Pledge

[rlg94086]

You’re right, it doesn’t. It is ambiguous. I say the pledge because I’ve said it for over 50 years and I love this country. However, some say the pledge with the notion that somehow America is God’s primary agent of change in the world and the God is an American. This approach can make a country a little myopic.

Our citizenship is in Heaven. This country is broken. But it is still my country and out of my love for it and a respect for what she once was, I will always say the pledge.

I agree with everything except the highlighted portion above. Do we have problem areas we could improve? Absolutely! But, that has been true throughout our history. There was no golden age.

 

[system]

Am I to infer that you are in favor of an overthrow of the government today?

No. I think the government (supposedly "of the people, by the people, and for the people) has been at the least, extremely corrupted, and at the worst, already “overthrown” in the sense that in the last 50 years or so,(after being isolationist for over a century before the world wars) we have had almost constant military involvement around the world and literally hundreds of military actions be they for 2 weeks or 10 years.

Before you give me the label “conspiracy nut” or “theorist”, remember our president Eisenhower gave serious warnings about a “military indsutrial complex” or whatever he called it.

As someone so deftly put it, “The business of America isn’t business! The business of America is war!” (I’ll track down who that was) So, as America does these things (always undeclared, skirting the constitution, increasing power of the executive) a small handful of coporations get super rich. Many, many other nations are avoiding such interventions, and their entire nation prospers and everyone’s standard of living improves. We are #1 in military power, but far behind in so many other important things.

I mean logically, if you think that today’s patriot would have been a loyalist, I’m assuming that would make you in favor of revolution?

HA! Nope - reread that person’s description of “A Patriot”. By that definition no patriot would have had any problems with the stamp act, postage act, and all the other blood-from-a-stone acts of George III. There would have been no America with patriots like that.

 

[dmelosi]

No. I think the government (supposedly "of the people, by the people, and for the people) has been at the least, extremely corrupted, and at the worst, already “overthrown” in the sense that in the last 50 years or so,(after being isolationist for over a century before the world wars) we have had almost constant military involvement around the world and literally hundreds of military actions be they for 2 weeks or 10 years.

Before you give me the label “conspiracy nut” or “theorist”, remember our president Eisenhower gave serious warnings about a “military indsutrial complex” or whatever he called it.

As someone so deftly put it, “The business of America isn’t business! The business of America is war!” (I’ll track down who that was) So, as America does these things (always undeclared, skirting the constitution, increasing power of the executive) a small handful of coporations get super rich. Many, many other nations are avoiding such interventions, and their entire nation prospers and everyone’s standard of living improves. We are #1 in military power, but far behind in so many other important things.

HA! Nope - reread that person’s description of “A Patriot”. By that definition no patriot would have had any problems with the stamp act, postage act, and all the other blood-from-a-stone acts of George III. There would have been no America with patriots like that.

Just curious on some of the other things we are far behind in?

 

[LtPaint]

I love my country. When people that ran it didn’t do that to my liking, I still loved her.

If you lost respect for your child due to the actions he or she has taken have you stopped loving your child? Do you stopped pledging support to that child?

It’s when things are going badly that we need more patriotism. Change only occurs when people care. Lack of patriotism is a defeatist attitude and allows for others to make changes that effect our life without your say so, knowledge, or consideration.

Patriotism allows for the citizenry to be involved in making the republic what it is, and what it will become. To stop being patriotic due to a hopefully passing emotional state is being a poor citizen.

The only way to change this country is by being involved. One cannot be involved if he doesn’t care.

It’s my country, whether I am drunk or sober. It’s my country if I am right or wrong. It’s my country, no matter who is president. It’s mine. Ownership beings with it responsibility. I have a responsibility to my country. Negating patriotism negates responsibility.

Please rethink your position. Please care and work to make this country better.

1. I have a hard time treating a country in the same way a child. A child does not control every legel aspact of my life and a child is on a much smaller scale. Also, a child is noly aroudn 10 years old, this country is over 200(which is rather young).
2. I am very involved. I do large amounts of community service and defend things like the pro-life position. Voting is an issue because of age, so the amount I can be involved is limited. I’m still confused how saying a pledge makes a person more patriotic or a better citizen.

 

[b_justb]

1. I have a hard time treating a country in the same way a child. A child does not control every legel aspact of my life and a child is on a much smaller scale. Also, a child is noly aroudn 10 years old, this country is over 200(which is rather young).

1. I am very involved. I do large amounts of community service and defend things like the pro-life position. Voting is an issue because of age, so the amount I can be involved is limited. I’m still confused how saying a pledge makes a person more patriotic or a better citizen.

I was specifically referring to your sentiments in the OP of:

I have issues with saying it and many things about this country have caused me to lose respect for it and I don’t see the point of standing up and saying it if there is no meaning for me.

Saying or not saying anything doesn’t make one more or less patriotic, it’s the reasons behind saying or not saying. I heard you saying that you don’t wish to recite the pledge because it has no meaning to you due to your loss of respect in where you see this country is at as far as social ills like abortion, and others.

In 1969 I was in grade school and I was forbidden by my parents to say the pledge. I was at school and the rest of the kids were saying the pledge and I pulled down the chair from off my desk to get set up for class. The legs of the chair got tangled with the other chairs and about 4 of them came tumbling down. The teacher abruptly walked over to me, grabbed me firmly by the arm and threw me to the floor. She then leaned into my face and told me to sit on the floor if I didn’t want to say the pledge.

Reciting the pledge, just like reciting anything, can be worthless or fantastic based on the state of mind. It seems you are saying you are unhappy with American society and disagree with some of the political choices that have been made. Don’t allow those things to stop your patriotism, allow it to stir the coals! Become more patriotic. America needs all of her citizens to be involved “to create a more perfect union.” Refusing to say the pledge because you don’t respect some of the leader’s decisions is giving up your patriotism. Dig deeper than that. Say each word with more feeling because you can work to change this country for the better. We all need you to do exactly that. Don’t give up.

 

[rlg94086]

I was specifically referring to your sentiments in the OP of:Saying or not saying anything doesn’t make one more or less patriotic, it’s the reasons behind saying or not saying. I heard you saying that you don’t wish to recite the pledge because it has no meaning to you due to your loss of respect in where you see this country is at as far as social ills like abortion, and others.

In 1969 I was in grade school and I was forbidden by my parents to say the pledge. I was at school and the rest of the kids were saying the pledge and I pulled down the chair from off my desk to get set up for class. The legs of the chair got tangled with the other chairs and about 4 of them came tumbling down. The teacher abruptly walked over to me, grabbed me firmly by the arm and threw me to the floor. She then leaned into my face and told me to sit on the floor if I didn’t want to say the pledge.

Reciting the pledge, just like reciting anything, can be worthless or fantastic based on the state of mind.** It seems you are saying you are unhappy with American society and disagree with some of the political choices that have been made. Don’t allow those things to stop your patriotism, allow it to stir the coals! Become more patriotic. America needs all of her citizens to be involved “to create a more perfect union.”** Refusing to say the pledge because you don’t respect some of the leader’s decisions is giving up your patriotism. Dig deeper than that. Say each word with more feeling because you can work to change this country for the better. We all need you to do exactly that. Don’t give up.

Exactly! I was just as patriotic when the government was in full control by the Democrats (WH and Congress). I didn’t care for the previous president, but I still recited the pledge and still accepted the decisions that were made even as I worked for future change. We still aren’t 100% Robert-approved (and probably never will be), but as you said we all need to be involved “to create a more perfect union.”

 

[rlg94086]

No. I think the government (supposedly "of the people, by the people, and for the people) has been at the least, extremely corrupted, and at the worst, already “overthrown” in the sense that in the last 50 years or so,(after being isolationist for over a century before the world wars) we have had almost constant military involvement around the world and literally hundreds of military actions be they for 2 weeks or 10 years.

Before you give me the label “conspiracy nut” or “theorist”, remember our president Eisenhower gave serious warnings about a “military indsutrial complex” or whatever he called it.

As someone so deftly put it, “The business of America isn’t business! The business of America is war!” (I’ll track down who that was) So, as America does these things (always undeclared, skirting the constitution, increasing power of the executive) a small handful of coporations get super rich. Many, many other nations are avoiding such interventions, and their entire nation prospers and everyone’s standard of living improves. We are #1 in military power, but far behind in so many other important things.

Maybe Eisenhower was a “conspiracy nut.” IIRC, the current administration went to Congress, and they approved of giving him authority, so that didn’t seem to skirt the Constitution. And, many, many other nations have joined us in “such interventions.”

HA! Nope - reread that person’s description of “A Patriot”. By that definition no patriot would have had any problems with the stamp act, postage act, and all the other blood-from-a-stone acts of George III. There would have been no America with patriots like that.

I was teasing of course, as I know you well enough from your posts. As far as what position we all would have had in the 1700s, that is really difficult to tell. As you are anti-war in almost all cases, you may have been a loyalist.

My ancestors were most probably on both sides of the issue. It is not the same as today, because there was no representation in Parliament (remember “no taxation without representation”). Today, you and I have representation in Congress, so while I may hate some of the taxes imposed on us today, they were put in place by people we elected. It is still “we the people,” even if your particular political viewpoint is not shared by those in power. Enough of your fellow countrymen shared that political viewpoint…at least enough for the representatives to be elected.

 

[system]

I was teasing of course, as I know you well enough from your posts. As far as what position we all would have had in the 1700s, that is really difficult to tell. As you are anti-war in almost all cases, you may have been a loyalist.

I prefer the term, “contrarian and humorist”

If I were born in another country, I would probably be trying to leave there to get here!

My ancestors were most probably on both sides of the issue. It is not the same as today, because there was no representation in Parliament (remember “no taxation without representation”). Today, you and I have representation in Congress, so while I may hate some of the taxes imposed on us today, they were put in place by people we elected. It is still “we the people,” even if your particular political viewpoint is not shared by those in power.

Not so for tax-paying americans of Puerto Rico, District of Columbia and elsewhere. They get “non-voting representatives” but pay full taxes.

 

[rlg94086]

Not so for tax-paying americans of Puerto Rico, District of Columbia and elsewhere. They get “non-voting representatives” but pay full taxes.

Okay. So, they have a legitimate beef then. You and I don’t.

 

[system]

Maybe Eisenhower was a “conspiracy nut.”

From a revered US Marine:

It may seem odd for me, a military man to adopt such a comparison. Truthfulness compels me to. I spent thirty-three years and four months in active military service as a member of this country’s most agile military force, the Marine Corps. I served in all commissioned ranks from Second Lieutenant to Major-General. And during that period, I spent most of my time being a high class muscle-man for Big Business, for Wall Street and for the Bankers. In short, I was a racketeer, a gangster for capitalism.

I suspected I was just part of a racket at the time. Now I am sure of it. Like all the members of the military profession, I never had a thought of my own until I left the service. My mental faculties remained in suspended animation while I obeyed the orders of higher-ups. This is typical with everyone in the military service.

I helped make Mexico, especially Tampico, safe for American oil interests in 1914. I helped make Haiti and Cuba a decent place for the National City Bank boys to collect revenues in. I helped in the raping of half a dozen Central American republics for the benefits of Wall Street. The record of racketeering is long. I helped purify Nicaragua for the international banking house of Brown Brothers in 1909-1912 (where have I heard that name before?). I brought light to the Dominican Republic for American sugar interests in 1916. In China I helped to see to it that Standard Oil went its way unmolested.

During those years, I had, as the boys in the back room would say, a swell racket. Looking back on it, I feel that I could have given Al Capone a few hints. The best he could do was to operate his racket in three districts. I operated on three continents."

– Excerpt from a speech delivered in 1933 by Major General Smedley Butler, USMC

Sad truth. This is no “crackpot” or conspiracy theorist. When I lived on Okinawa I lived at Camp Butler (Smedley Butler, USMC)

Which brings us back to the topic of whether or not we as Catholics should make a pledge when we know this is how the game really works. I would think a Catholic would have more reason to pledge to a neutral country than one that is constantly intervening with deadly force.

just my 2 cents:twocents:

 

[rlg94086]

From a revered US Marine:

Sad truth. This is no “crackpot” or conspiracy theorist. When I lived on Okinawa I lived at Camp Butler (Smedley Butler, USMC)

Which brings us back to the topic of whether or not we as Catholics should make a pledge when we know this is how the game really works. I would think a Catholic would have more reason to pledge to a neutral country than one that is constantly intervening with deadly force.

just my 2 cents:twocents:

Do you have anything a little more current? That story pre-dated Eisenhower. I tend to like my conspiracy theories to be a little closer to me, in order to consider them even close to being relevant.

 

[system]

Do you have anything a little more current? That story pre-dated Eisenhower. I tend to like my conspiracy theories to be a little closer to me, in order to consider them even close to being relevant.

I find it strange that each time I make a point, the point is not considered for some silly reason. BY 1933 Eisenhower was rising through the ranks to become the supreme allied compander less than a decade after this statement. This statement by Butler shows the system he (Eisenhower) was working in.

Butler’s statement contains facts, there are no theories involved. Butler’s comments were used becaused you called Eisenhower a conspiracy nut. (wrongly, I might add)

 

[rlg94086]

I find it strange that each time I make a point, the point is not considered for some silly reason. BY 1933 Eisenhower was rising through the ranks to become the supreme allied compander less than a decade after this statement. This statement by Butler shows the system he (Eisenhower) was working in.

Butler’s statement contains facts, there are no theories involved. Butler’s comments were used becaused you called Eisenhower a conspiracy nut. (wrongly, I might add)

Max…you know me by now…I joked that **maybe **Eisenhower was a conspiracy nut. I even used two smilies! For a self-described “humorist,” please try to keep your sense of humor.

I don’t know if there is any veracity to Eisenhower’s statement, but a quote from a general in 1933 certainly doesn’t seem very interesting to me in 2008.

 

[SacredHeartFan]

I personally say, “…one nation, almost under God…”
I really don’t believe in alot of the stuff our country represents i.e.: drugs, violence, abortion, bad media, greed, etc.
I also agree with Joe Kelly about singing “God Forgive America” rather than “God Bless America”.

 

[system]

Max…you know me by now…I joked that **maybe **Eisenhower was a conspiracy nut. I even used two smilies! For a self-described “humorist,” please try to keep your sense of humor.

I don’t know if there is any veracity to Eisenhower’s statement, but a quote from a general in 1933 certainly doesn’t seem very interesting to me in 2008.

You’re in denial!

The military is the muscle of the war profiteers!

Even if I’m wrong, if I believe it to be true, I couldn’t pledge myself as a Catholic to a government doing that.

 

[RWMorris]

Why do Catholics hate America?

Catholics don’t hate America, but a lot of socialists do. And unfortunately the Catholic Church has its share of socialists.

“Socialism and Christianity are incompatible.”

• (Idon’t know who said it but I wish it had been me; if no one claims it then I said it.)

 

[marci]

Catholics don’t hate America, but a lot of socialists do. And unfortunately the Catholic Church has its share of socialists.

“Socialism and Christianity are incompatible.”

• (Idon’t know who said it but I wish it had been me; if no one claims it then I said it.)

It was probably Pius XI. Look down.

There are alot of things that bother me about my country, pornography, abortion, drugs, crime, etc. But, aren’t these issues more about the PEOPLE in the country? Does anyone believe that our founding fathers would look down on us with pride at this moment in time? The system becomes broken when the moral fiber of her people become broken. Didn’t Franklin also say that our democratic republic would only work so long as moral men and woman operated in it?

The flag, to me, represents the best of what America can be, what she was meant to be, what she struggles to be even now. Alot of young men died so that we could have the right to refuse to pledge aligiance. I thank God that I was blessed enough to be born here. To be born a woman with freedom in the US, rather than a woman in Saudi Arabia, where I would not even have the freedom to drive a car.

America is not without her problems, but she is still the last best hope of freedom on this earth. If she goes all freedom loving nations will go with her.

 

[RWMorris]

Marci, thanks for clearing up that quote for me, I know I’m not smart enough to come up with something so profound yet simple.

There are alot of things that bother me about my country, pornography, abortion, drugs, crime, etc…The system becomes broken when the moral fiber of her people become broken…

I agree, we have some awful problems in this country. I know the answer is God, but we have so many people in powerful positions that think man can solve these problems without God’s help.

… America is … still the last best hope of freedom on this earth. If she goes all freedom loving nations will go with her.

Amen! With God’s help, through our actions and prayers, there is still hope that America will survive as a beacon of Christian hope and human freedom.

 

[marci]

Amen! With God’s help, through our actions and prayers, there is still hope that America will survive as a beacon of Christian hope and human freedom.

 

[Steelers_Rule]

I personally say, “…one nation, almost under God…”
I really don’t believe in alot of the stuff our country represents i.e.: drugs, violence, abortion, bad media, greed, etc.
I also agree with Joe Kelly about singing “God Forgive America” rather than “God Bless America”.

You’re pledging allegiance to the system and ideals of the government. Don’t you want a nation under God? Should an immigrant be allowed to become a citizen if they couldn’t say the Pledge?

There are 70 million Catholics in the US. Let’s say, hypothetically, that only Catholics could vote and run for office. Could you guarantee that Roe vs. Wade would be overturned? Would there be laws to protect pharmacists if they didn’t want to deal ABC, and the “morning after” pill?

70 million votes for Catholic values would change the country, but a priest can’t even keep his job after speaking against ABC in a homily. Where is the real problem?