The Pope’s legal name?

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HomeschoolDad

HomeschoolDad

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Does the sitting Pope retain his pre-papacy name for legal purposes, such as a driver’s license or passport?
 
He is a head of state, so he’s in a special situation. In Vatican City, his papal name is his legal name. He also has citizenship in Argentina, however, and his legal name in Argentina didn’t change when he took a papal name. Which name he uses legally would depend on whether he is being treated as a head of state or as a citizen of Argentina.
 
Tis_Bearself said:
His passport says Jorge Mario Bergoglio.

favicon.ico
The Independent – 18 Feb 14

Pope Francis gets passport to show he is a pope of the people​

Pope sat for ID photo on Friday
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I can’t help noticing that this passport photo wouldn’t pass muster if it were submitted for an American passport (head tilted and wearing a headdress).
 
I recently asked a similar question when visiting a convent - if the sisters there still changed their names upon taking vows and how the legal name scenarios were handled. Most of the sisters in that congregation have two names; some have simply foregone the use of their vowed name though because of the complications of medical records and driver’s licenses. Their official roster and database now reflects both.

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Tis_Bearself said:
If the Pope is cruising around on an Argentine passport, then he’s still an Argentine citizen.
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The Pope is not just head of the Universal Church and the head of state of the Holy See, but is also monarch of Vatican City, which is the independent territory over which the Holy See has sovereignty.

He may be maintaining his Argentine passport and of course is still a citizen of Argentina, but he doesn’t need an Argentine passport to travel. He can grant himself a passport through the Holy See (which is recognized as a sovereign entity under international law). If Argentina figured out a way to pull his citizenship, it wouldn’t make a bit of difference in his ability to travel.
 
The Pope didn’t want special treatment. He asked to renew his Argentine passport. I can’t imagine Argentina would suddenly revoke his passport or his citizenship, unless they are taken over by anti-clericals. And of course the Pope could still travel.
 
Tis_Bearself said:
The Pope didn’t want special treatment. He asked to renew his Argentine passport. I can’t imagine Argentina would suddenly revoke his passport or his citizenship, unless they are taken over by anti-clericals. And of course the Pope could still travel.
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Well, traveling as head of state isn’t special treatment when you’re the head of state. He’s in the state of all of his predecessors back to St. Peter: “Amen, amen, I say to you, when you were younger, you used to dress yourself and go where you wanted; but when you grow old, you will stretch out your hands, and someone else will dress you and lead you where you do not want to go.” (John 21:18) He does what the Holy Spirit dictates that his office requires; he is not a private person who can just please himself.

I’m thinking he simply wants to maintain his connection to Argentina. And no, Argentina isn’t going to prevent his return or disown him. My point was only that since they have no desire to keep him from returning home they have no authority to keep him from traveling any more.
 
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Did you read the posted article? It explains why he kept his Argentine passport.

I’m bowing out of this thread here since this seems to be a rather pointless discussion, and the OP’s question is already answered. Bye
 
The posted article says:
"The head of the Catholic Church has asked his birth country of Argentina to renew his travel documents so he can travel as a regular Argentine rather than as a privileged citizen of the Vatican City, the country’s interior and transportation ministry said on Monday.

Officials went to the Vatican gardens last Friday to take photos and digital fingerprints for his new national identification card."

It is impossible that the Holy Father is naive enough to believe he will ever travel as a regular Argentine ever again in his life, not any more than Joseph Ratzinger is ever going to travel as a regular German again. It is legally possible–their home countries would not have any problem with it–but it simply is never going to happen. Nobody checks the Pope’s passport when His Holiness travels any more than anybody checks the passport of Queen Elizabeth II (who does not have one, because British passports are issued in Her Majesty’s name).

But yes, in matters in which Argentina has authority, he would sign legal papers–such as his Argentine passport–with his legal Argentine name. In matters pertaining to the Holy See, he signs documents with his regnal name.

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Who knows? Perhaps I am wrong and he will retire to Argentina. He is a man of surprises. Let’s say it is fair to have doubts, simply because of the expense of providing security for him.
 
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MichaelP3 said:
Unless he needs a visa as an Argentinean and not a passport holder of the Holy See or vice versa.
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Who is going to stop the Pope at a border but then let him in when he produces an Argentine passport?
 
PetraG said:
Who is going to stop the Pope at a border but then let him in when he produces an Argentine passport?
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He would likely need an Argentinean passport to return to Argentina. They’d probably expect him to leave and return as an Argentinean citizen.
 
Fauken said:
He would likely need an Argentinean passport to return to Argentina. They’d probably expect him to leave and return as an Argentinean citizen.
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When he finally returns to his mother country, their president and a huge crowd will undoubtedly be there to greet his plane when it touches down. It would be like the visit of any other Pope, only far more wildly affectionate.
He’ll kiss the ground as soon as he gets off the plane.
No one is going to ask for his passport. They don’t do that when heads of state visit. It isn’t a situation where proof of identiy is remotely necessary.
 
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PetraG said:
Who is going to stop the Pope at a border but then let him in when he produces an Argentine passport?
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I hope you are joking.

Believe it or not but the Pope would need a Visa if the country requires it. Maybe His Holy see passport exempts him and maybe his Argentinean passport exempts him and also maybe none of them exempts him. Then he is like you and me…
 
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MichaelP3 said:
I hope you are joking.

Believe it or not but the Pope would need a Visa if the country requires it. Maybe His Holy see passport exempts him amd maybe his Argentinean passport exempts him and also maybe none of them exempts him. Them he is like you and me…
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My tongue could not be farther in my cheek.
The Queen of England came to the US and no one checked her passport.
How do I know this? Because she does not have one!
Her government made arrangements with the US government and her safe passage was approved before she ever took off.
Did anyone check Mr. Trump’s passport when he travels the world? Of course they don’t! He’s a visiting head of state. He doesn’t travel without making diplomatic arrangments in advance.
 
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PetraG said:
No one is going to ask for his passport. They don’t do that when heads of state visit. It isn’t a situation where proof of identiy is remotely necessary.
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Heads of State are not normally citizens of two countries. And his visit would be planned well in advance, which means his passport would need to be in order.
 
Fauken said:
Heads of State are not normally citizens of two countries. And his visit would be planned well in advance, which means his passport would need to be in order.
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Please produce evidence that any Pope has ever had to produce travel documents from his country of birth upon arrival in a foreign country. It doesn’t happen. He’s a head of state, not a religious leader only. He’s either got a diplomatic invitation from the country he’s going to visit in advance or else he doesn’t go.

Again: Even President Trump doesn’t visit countries he used to visit unless it is arranged in advance. He’s the President of the United States now, not a private person, and he won’t travel as a private person until he is out of office. He undoubtedly has a passport, but he’ll never need one until he is no longer President.
 
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