The Pope’s legal name?

[MichaelP3]

Please produce evidence that any Pope has ever had to produce travel documents from his country of birth upon arrival in a foreign country. It doesn’t happen.

But is that actaully a thing? Does a head of state really not need to produce a passport?

 

[MichaelP3]

Please produce evidence that any Pope has ever had to produce travel documents from his country of birth upon arrival in a foreign country

Although I do not have the proof I can just imagine the Pope walking through immigration in China and they are all “like its the Pope let him walk”. Yup, not probably what happened!!!

 

[twf]

Of course they would. If the Pope went to China, and that’s a big if, it would be at the invitation of the Chinese government. He would never ever go otherwise. And in that scenario, no they would not check his passport. Why would then? Chiefs of State are above such paperwork formalities when on diplomatic travel.

 

[Fauken]

Please produce evidence that any Pope has ever had to produce travel documents from his country of birth upon arrival in a foreign country.

I’m not talking about a foreign country, I’m talking about his home country.

 

[MichaelP3]

My tongue could not be farther in my cheek.

Please place that tongue very very far back in that cheek before you say someting embarrassing.

When you are ready to talk further I am here. Currently we are not there yet!!!

 

[Wife.of.Gabriel]

Wait, he retained his former Country’s citizenship even though he’s now the Head of State of another Country now? AND maintains different legal identities in each? Wow! It’s as if he’s like a “:musical_note:Secret Agent Man:notes:”

 

[PetraG]

But is that actaully a thing? Does a head of state really not need to produce a passport?

Think about why passports are needed. They’re proof of who you are and the country of your citizenship.
A visiting head of state of course does not need anything like that, because they do not visit other countries without prior notification of the government of the nation they are visiting, even if they are visiting incognito.
When you are met at the border by the people doing security, it is a representative of the government of the nation you are visiting checking who you are and deciding whether you’re going to be allowed in. You have a document from your government that attests to your identity and that you have permission to travel.
A head of state being met by a head of state or high state officials needs no such thing.

 

[PetraG]

Wait, he retained his former Country’s citizenship even though he’s now the Head of State of another Country now? AND maintains different legal identities in each? Wow! It’s as if he’s like a “:musical_note:Secret Agent Man:notes:”

Vatican City and the Holy See are unique sovereign entities in a lot of ways.

I’m not talking about a foreign country, I’m talking about his home country.

Listen, he has a passport. He could abdicate tomorrow and go home to Argentina. He’s still a citizen.

He is not going to do that. As long as he is Pope, he will travel as the Pope, which is to say as a head of state and the Supreme Pontiff of the Roman Catholic Church, even if he goes home, just as Pope St. John Paul II did.

If he should retire–who knows? Certainly a future Pope would not deny him citizenship, but he might elect to go home and live as a retired Argentine bishop would. He has a mind of his own, I think that is safe to say, and it isn’t as if he could be kept at the Vatican under house arrest, lol.

Believe it or not but the Pope would need a Visa if the country requires it.

Heads of state don’t need less than private persons do, but rather more. There is a diplomatic process that happens before state visits between countries with diplomatic relations. By the time that has been fulfilled to the satisfaction of both governments, the exercise of producing a passport for the visiting head of state would border on the absurd.

 

[TomH1]

Does the sitting Pope retain his pre-papacy name for legal purposes, such as a driver’s license or passport?

That would depend on what the Holy See does in respect to the Pope. The Pope is, and recognised in international law, as a head of state. Therefore, he may need neither. For example, in the UK where I live The Queen does not require a passport, nor a driver’s licence and she can also drive a car without licence plates. Of course, as the Holy See’s head of state the pope could easily get a passport if he needed one. I suspect that it has also been generally anticipated that the Pope won’t drive himself. He hardly needs a car to get around the Vatican City State so unlike our Queen he’s probably never going to drive himself anywhere. Once outside the Vatican’s borders he will instantly encounter diplomatic niceties. Even if they were taking a private holiday it’s considered good form for a country to inform another country its head of state will be there. I don’t think the Pope can simply leave the Vatican without such niceties happening behind the scenes.

I know Americans will be used to a head of state having a passport. That’s because your president is president for a maximum of eight years. After that he’s legally like any other citizen. Our Queen is the monarch for life and popes usually are. So, I’d be very surprised if the Pope needs a passport. The fact Francis has asked Argentina to renew his Argentine documents is to me simply another example of HH Francis doing things his way. However, the minute he sets foot outside the Vatican City State things can’t be his way. He is obliged to international diplomatic laws and treaties like other heads of state.

 

[MichaelP3]

But lets call it a formality, that passport, in this case a diplomatic passport would still be stamped would it not?

I do not have personal experience with a head if state but I do have personal experience with a high government official and after the hoo haa of the arrival, the “formality” is completed. Passport stamped end of story.

 

[13pollitos]

Military travel on their military ID. My husband has never had a US passport, but he’s gone all over the place. No one asked for his passport. He had his military ID and official travel papers. No passport to stamp ever. Why would it be different for Heads of State?

And no, I am not just talking about him traveling for deployments but other official government business. If he ever decided to travel for pleasure he would need a passport. He doesn’t plan to get one. He says he’s tired of traveling unfortunately.

ETA: my husband was a Mexican citizen and had a Mexican passport when he first joined the Army. He still only traveled with his ID and travel docs. Never even took his passport with him. When he became a citizen he never applied for His US passport.

 

[MichaelP3]

But this is something very interesting in my opinion. Obviously everyone have to agree it then depends on the country travelling to.

Your husband travelled without the need of a passport and I accept that is possible. Obviously I have no idea where he went and so forth.

With a head of state I do not mean they actually wait in line at passport control. Or even less they make an appointment at the consulate of another country to obtain a visa. I just say some countries will want identification. And stamp it.

Maybe I am just biased because I need a visa to go anywhere. It is really irritating!

(My wife is Polish and now I do not need to pay for the Shengen Visa, but I still need to apply for it which is actually the problem)

 

[13pollitos]

He did have identification and travel documents. He just had and continues to have no passport.

 

[MichaelP3]

Interesting story. Thank you for sharing!

 

[13pollitos]

Maybe I am just biased because I need a visa to go anywhere. It is really irritating!

I understand. I would LOVE to travel. I even have a passport that is mostly unused. If I go to Mexico to see my in-laws I have to get a visa. My husband is a US citizen but Mexican born and they still don’t make him get a visa. It frustrates me too

 

[PetraG]

But lets call it a formality, that passport, in this case a diplomatic passport would still be stamped would it not?

I do not have personal experience with a head if state but I do have personal experience with a high government official and after the hoo haa of the arrival, the “formality” is completed. Passport stamped end of story.

Let’s take the instance of Queen Elizabeth II: she literally does not have a passport. She does not have a driver’s license. The documents do not exist. Why? Because it would be silly for her to carry around a document attesting to her identity, her permission to drive and her permission to travel outside her country. She’s the one who gives the permission! It is entirely possible that the people in her entourage all have to prove who they are and verify they have permission to travel from the government, that they would have their passports checked and would have to carry identity papers. (The Royal Family all have passports, as well, excepting the Queen Herself.)

A head of state needs no such permission from his or her own government and does not need to prove identity. Their permission to enter a country is pre-arranged as a diplomatic matter. There isn’t any more paperwork than that. In the United States, the President isn’t a monarch, so he has a diplomatic passport.

From what I gather, however, the Pope has chosen to travel as a citizen of Argentina, apparently because he does not wish to travel as a monarch or a head of state. Suffice it to say, however, that the paperwork for a state visit between nations with diplomatic ties far exceeds the paperwork for travel by a private individual.

 

[twf]

Yes, as a Canadian, my passport asks that the bearer (me) be permitted to travel in the “name of Her Majesty the Queen”… it wouldn’t make sense for her to carry her own passport.

 

[Xystus]

Military travel on their military ID. My husband has never had a US passport, but he’s gone all over the place. No one asked for his passport. He had his military ID and official travel papers. No passport to stamp ever.

I am pretty sure that largely depends on the Status of Forces Agreement with the country the military member is traveling to.

 

[PetraG]

But lets call it a formality, that passport, in this case a diplomatic passport would still be stamped would it not?

I do not have personal experience with a head if state but I do have personal experience with a high government official and after the hoo haa of the arrival, the “formality” is completed. Passport stamped end of story.

You are correct, I will concede, that the necessity for a passport differs by country. The Pope, being absolute monarch of Vatican City, could require a passport for himself or could dispense with one, as the Queen of the United Kingdom does. The passport is permission from a government to travel, so it is the issuing government that makes the rules for those (which is why the US government could decide that military identification is a legal substitute for a civilian passport). The hosting government decides what paperwork it requires for entry from travellers to attest to identity and permission to travel from their home countries. Obviously, a country can decide to accept travelers with no citizenship anywhere (a stateless person being someone not considered as a national by any state under the operation of its law), if they want to, just as they can deny entry to anyone they want to on no grounds at all. Each country decides what their standards are.

If the Pope were to decide not to issue himself a passport and to travel without one, he would undoubtedly be given the same right to do that as the Queen of the United Kingdom. The only question remaining, however, is whether a nation would decide to welcome him at all.

Although the Church holds that immigration is a human right, it also recognizes that every nation has the right to sovereignty over its own borders. Having standards for travel that are within the boundaries of human rights is just one of the many moral duties of a civil government, such as the duty to wage war only under just circumstances. It is possible that a government could decide that the Pope could only have permission to enter their country if he produced a passport from his country of nationality. Likewise, however, the country could also decide that he (or anyone else) needed no passport at all. Based on the precedent of the Queen, it is obvious that nations with diplomatic relations do make that concession and would undoubtedly do so for the Pope.

Having said that–I will concede that you are correct that if the Pope insisted on having his Argentine passport stamped when he traveled, the hosting nation would undoubtedly comply with the conditions he set using his authority over the Holy See and Vatican City.

I stand by my contention, however, that it is impossible for the Pope to travel as if he were just any private individual. That will be true for as long as he occupies the Chair of Peter, and for practical purposes probably always will be. He is bound by his diplomatic position; it is a fact of his life now. He is not just the Bishop of Rome but also the monarch of Vatican City and the head of the Holy See, and the latter two are sovereign entities under international law.

 

[PetraG]

Does the sitting Pope retain his pre-papacy name for legal purposes, such as a driver’s license or passport?

Back to your original question, it would be interesting what documents the Pope would elect to produce if the Italian police pull him over while he is driving his Renault around Rome, lol:

Pope takes classic Renault for spin, leaves security in the dust

UPDATE: Photos of the pope’s “new” car VATICAN CITY — When an Italian priest handed Pope Francis the keys to his classic 30hp Renault 4, the pope got behind the wheel and to…

cnsblog.wordpress.com

Obviously, the Italian government doesn’t require passports for people going out of the Vatican and back out into Rome, because no one goes into the Vatican without having passed through Italy first. It all depends on where you are. Regardless of what driver’s license the Pope does or doesn’t carry if he ever drives himself around Italy, I’d wager that he’d enjoy diplomatic immunity.

There are no passport controls to enter Vatican City, except that entry is through Italy:

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