The pope and hiv

[CHRISTINE77]

Since people are going to shoot each other anyway, we should just give everyone body armor instead of trying to discourage people shooting each other.

Sound like a good idea?

Sound like a good idea if you are in a high volume shooting area, like gang land or war zones.

 

[Mary_Gail_36]

Religious dogma and telling people how to live there lives, is more important than actually saving lives, that’s what this is about.

So basically, people are disobeying the Church regarding, premarital sex, extramarital sex, homosexual sex etc…but they are obeying the Church regarding condom use?

Actually, if people obeyed the Church in all aspects, then disease rates would go down.

Explain why then HIV rates in Uganda, where monogamy is promoted, are falling, but HIV rates in South Africa, where condom use is promoted, is going up?

 

[Sister_Amy]

I for one think that abstinence outside of marriage is a fine approach, and don’t really see a problem with the Church promoting it.

I’m just wondering if it was actually church policy that a married couple needed permission from the church to use a condom. I am confused as to why the church should have any business in the intimacy of married couples.

Was that statement true, that a married couple needs church permission to use condoms, or was that a misunderstanding?

 

[Becks]

The Popes truth is killing everyone in Africa.

Let’s maybe try someone elses truth and see if that works.

You can’t make this statement without backing it up. How is the Pope discouraging the promotion of condom use and promiscuity killing anyone?

 

[Becks]

I for one think that abstinence outside of marriage is a fine approach, and don’t really see a problem with the Church promoting it.

I’m just wondering if it was actually church policy that a married couple needed permission from the church to use a condom. I am confused as to why the church should have any business in the intimacy of married couples.

Was that statement true, that a married couple needs church permission to use condoms, or was that a misunderstanding?

The statement’s not exactly true because it implies that the Church might ok the use of condoms by a married couple. Somebody please correct me if I’m wrong, but I can’t think of any situation in which the Church would say that use of condoms is justified.

 

[CHRISTINE77]

I for one think that abstinence outside of marriage is a fine approach, and don’t really see a problem with the Church promoting it.

I’m just wondering if it was actually church policy that a married couple needed permission from the church to use a condom. I am confused as to why the church should have any business in the intimacy of married couples.

Was that statement true, that a married couple needs church permission to use condoms, or was that a misunderstanding?

I think the only birth control Catholics are allowed is the rhythm method, where the woman learns about when she is fertile, and abstains from sex at that time.

 

[CHRISTINE77]

So basically, people are disobeying the Church regarding, premarital sex, extramarital sex, homosexual sex etc…but they are obeying the Church regarding condom use?

Actually, if people obeyed the Church in all aspects, then disease rates would go down.

Explain why then HIV rates in Uganda, where monogamy is promoted, are falling, but HIV rates in South Africa, where condom use is promoted, is going up?

Do you have any data on this?

 

[Tomster]

What can make it worse (using a condom) is:

1. They give people a false sense of security. Condoms were never designed to stop viruses such as HIV. The fabric is too loosely woven. It’s meant to stop sperm which are hundreds of times bigger than viruses.
2. Condom use often promotes infidelity since people think they aren’t going to get pregnant or get a disease. We’ve already seen that the second notion is just plain wrong and the first is pretty close to it in that no condom can ever guarantee a woman won’t get pregnant.
3. Condom use promotes the idea that married couples’ bodies are merely objects of sex for their partners not someone with whom one shares the full, uninhibited, and loving embrace of marital sex. Sex in marriage isn’t about what I can get out of it; it’s about what I can give to it.

And those reasons are just for starters.

Beautiful and thank you.

 

[Tomster]

Since people are going to shoot each other anyway, we should just give everyone body armor instead of trying to discourage people shooting each other.

Sound like a good idea?

 

[Rocky]

I for one think that abstinence outside of marriage is a fine approach, and don’t really see a problem with the Church promoting it.

I’m just wondering if it was actually church policy that a married couple needed permission from the church to use a condom. I am confused as to why the church should have any business in the intimacy of married couples.

Was that statement true, that a married couple needs church permission to use condoms, or was that a misunderstanding?

Again, you have to ask the BBC what they were basing their article on. In church teaching anything artificial that impedes the *possibility *of new life coming from the marital act is considered sinful. To use the condom for health reasons still impedes the possibility of new life coming from the act.

I think that condom use in preventing HIV transmission is futile because, as stated previously, condoms really cannot prevent the transmission of viruses, and people who use them even to prevent the transmission of sperm have failures. How many more failures there most be in preventing HIV.

 

[Bill_Pick]

I for one think that abstinence outside of marriage is a fine approach, and don’t really see a problem with the Church promoting it.

I’m just wondering if it was actually church policy that a married couple needed permission from the church to use a condom. I am confused as to why the church should have any business in the intimacy of married couples.

Was that statement true, that a married couple needs church permission to use condoms, or was that a misunderstanding?

see if this will help you

Gen 1:28, 9:1,7; 35:11 - from the beginning, the Lord commands us to be fruitful (“fertile”) and multiply. A husband and wife fulfill God’s plan for marriage in the bringing forth of new life, for God is life itself.Gen. 28:3 - Isaac’s prayer over Jacob shows that fertility and procreation are considered blessings from God. Gen. 38:8-10 - Onan is killed by God for practicing contraception (in this case, withdrawal) and spilling his semen on the ground. Gen. 38:11-26 - Judah, like Onan, also rejected God’s command to keep up the family lineage, but he was not killed. Deut. 25:7-10 - the penalty for refusing to keep up a family lineage is not death, like Onan received. Onan was killed for wasting seed. Gen. 38:9 - also, the author’s usage of the graphic word “seed,” which is very uncharacteristic for Hebrew writing, further highlights the reason for Onan’s death. Exodus 23:25-26; Deut. 7:13-14 - God promises blessings which include no miscarriages or barrenness. Children are blessings from

 

[Rocky]

Do you have any data on this?

I went to google to try to find statistics on both countries (Uganda and South Africa) aids/hiv rates, looking up each country separately. What I found is that Uganda has 5.4% of the population 15-49 years old living today with hiv/aids. South Africa has 16.2% of the population 15-49 years old living with hiv/aids.

Uganda has an “ABC” method— Abstinence before marriage, Be faithful in marriage, Condom use last.

I did not find “ABC” practice noted in the statistical information for South Africa. Interestingly, in the article for Uganda it seemed that they tried to downplay the “ABC” method saying that perhaps most people who had aids have already passed on, and that this method is not as good as it seems.

But then, abstinence and faithfulness do not cost anything but love and will power. Somebody is making money on the condoms.

 

[Sister_Amy]

see if this will help you

Gen 1:28, 9:1,7; 35:11 - from the beginning, the Lord commands us to be fruitful (“fertile”) and multiply. A husband and wife fulfill God’s plan for marriage in the bringing forth of new life, for God is life itself.Gen. 28:3 - Isaac’s prayer over Jacob shows that fertility and procreation are considered blessings from God. Gen. 38:8-10 - Onan is killed by God for practicing contraception (in this case, withdrawal) and spilling his semen on the ground. Gen. 38:11-26 - Judah, like Onan, also rejected God’s command to keep up the family lineage, but he was not killed. Deut. 25:7-10 - the penalty for refusing to keep up a family lineage is not death, like Onan received. Onan was killed for wasting seed. Gen. 38:9 - also, the author’s usage of the graphic word “seed,” which is very uncharacteristic for Hebrew writing, further highlights the reason for Onan’s death. Exodus 23:25-26; Deut. 7:13-14 - God promises blessings which include no miscarriages or barrenness. Children are blessings from

Whoa… had to contain my laughter at that one… wow. People think Muslims are extreme. Wow… lol… sorry.

 

[Becks]

I am confused as to why the church should have any business in the intimacy of married couples.

Sister Amy,

Forgive me, but I am completely ignorant in regards to your faith, so unfortunately I can’t compare it to mine. In Catholicism marriage, sex, intimacy, procreation, etc. are absolutely the God’s business (and, as we see things, God’s business is the Church’s business as well).

 

[CHRISTINE77]

I don’t know where you people are getting your information about condoms not helping to control the spread of AIDS. Of course abstinence is the best way, but please let’s be practical. I think AIDS started in Africa from people having sex with apes. It’s fine if you are Catholic and have certain moral behavior, but obviously not all people do. That’s where condoms come in!

Here is some info from

aids.about.com/od/hivprevention/a/hivprevent.htm

Without condoms, heterosexual transmission continues to soar. Consider this. In some African nations, 1 in 3 adults are infected with HIV. The majority of sexual contact is unprotected, making transmission more likely and more widespread.

Facts About Condom Use and STD/HIV Prevention
The correct and consistent use of latex condoms during sexual intercourse- vaginal, anal, or oral-can greatly reduce a person’ s risk of acquiring or transmitting most STDs, including HIV infection, gonorrhea, chlamydia, trichomonas, human papilloma virus infection (HPV), and hepatitis B.

A big barrier to containing the HIV virus is cultural differences that make fighting the disease that much more difficult. In some African populations, multiple sexual partners are expected as part of cultural expression. This increases the risk of transmission because of the shear number of sexual contacts, most of them between parties who are unaware one or both of them is HIV infected.

 

[Sister_Amy]

Sister Amy,

Forgive me, but I am completely ignorant in regards to your faith, so unfortunately I can’t compare it to mine. In Catholicism marriage, sex, intimacy, procreation, etc. are absolutely the God’s business (and, as we see things, God’s business is the Church’s business as well).

Interesting response, and fair given the way I phrased my question. Maybe you’re not completely ignorant in regards to my faith, because I feel very much put in my place.

My faith, Islam, is what I believe to be a complete and comprehensive religion–meaning that nothing needs to be added to it (complete), and that it covers all aspects of a person’s life and is valid in any time and place (comprehensive.)

In my faith, there is a basic principle about worldly matters (as opposed to religious matters) that unless something is forbidden (based on the sources of Islam, namely the Qur’an and the teachings of Muhammad called the Sunnah) it is going to be allowed. (Religious matters are prayer, fasting, that sort of thing. The rest of a person’s life falls into the other category–what he does for work, in his free time, what he eats, how he dresses, etc.) Intimacy between a husband and a wife is part of Islam, obviously, but not in a religious way. There are some things which have been forbidden, but everything else is allowed.

And to me that makes a lot more sense than assuming everything to be forbidden and then having to get permission for something to make it allowed, like using condoms. Especially when the use of a condom is to prevent a harm.

But it doesn’t mean that intimacy isn’t “God’s business.” It is part of a person’s Islam, part of the way they submit to God.

And since you equate that to the Church (by saying God’s business is the Church’s business) I guess that pretty much answers my question.

Thanks.

 

[Becks]

A big barrier to containing the HIV virus is cultural differences that make fighting the disease that much more difficult. In some African populations, multiple sexual partners are expected as part of cultural expression. This increases the risk of transmission because of the shear number of sexual contacts, most of them between parties who are unaware one or both of them is HIV infected.

If these cultures require promiscuous sex with multiple partners, they are not Catholic. If they are not Catholic, why would they care what the Pope has to say about condom use.

My point is that the people who won’t listen when the Pope says to be abstinent/monogamous still won’t listen if the Pope were to say to use condoms when having sex.

 

[Becks]

Interesting response, and fair given the way I phrased my question. Maybe you’re not completely ignorant in regards to my faith, because I feel very much put in my place.

My faith, Islam, is what I believe to be a complete and comprehensive religion–meaning that nothing needs to be added to it (complete), and that it covers all aspects of a person’s life and is valid in any time and place (comprehensive.)

In my faith, there is a basic principle about worldly matters (as opposed to religious matters) that unless something is forbidden (based on the sources of Islam, namely the Qur’an and the teachings of Muhammad called the Sunnah) it is going to be allowed. (Religious matters are prayer, fasting, that sort of thing. The rest of a person’s life falls into the other category–what he does for work, in his free time, what he eats, how he dresses, etc.) Intimacy between a husband and a wife is part of Islam, obviously, but not in a religious way. There are some things which have been forbidden, but everything else is allowed.

And to me that makes a lot more sense than assuming everything to be forbidden and then having to get permission for something to make it allowed, like using condoms. Especially when the use of a condom is to prevent a harm.

But it doesn’t mean that intimacy isn’t “God’s business.” It is part of a person’s Islam, part of the way they submit to God.

And since you equate that to the Church (by saying God’s business is the Church’s business) I guess that pretty much answers my question.

Thanks.

Thank you for the response. I think I understand the question better now. It’s not that we assume everything is forbidden until we are given permission, it’s that the Church has continuously told us that we can’t use condoms. I don’t want to get into the Church’s scriptural or other reasoning for this decision (frankly, because I’m not that well versed on it) but I think this would be similar to something that Islam forbids you to do.

 

[CHRISTINE77]

If these cultures require promiscuous sex with multiple partners, they are not Catholic. If they are not Catholic, why would they care what the Pope has to say about condom use.

My point is that the people who won’t listen when the Pope says to be abstinent/monogamous still won’t listen if the Pope were to say to use condoms when having sex.

EXACTLY!!

 

[NDfan]

NDfan Thank you for your answer I know very little about HIV and you help me understand a little about it. Btw is your Nd is it talking about a school in south Bend smile

Bill your welcome brother Here’s another interesting statistic. Back to the HPV numbers I was giving to you. I noted that 80% of women get HPV if they have multiple sex partners. Well if the use of condoms is introduced the statistic is only reduced to 70%. So this alone proves that condoms don’t prevent the transmittal of diseases. HPV is a virus just like HIV. So given that condoms can’t stop HPV from spreading we have to assume that condoms are not effective in preventing HIV from spreading. They may reduce it but certainly not eliminate it.

And yes the ND part of my handle is definitely the South Bend school Huge Notre Dame fan since I was like 5.

PEACE