The pope and hiv

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Facts About Condom Use and STD/HIV Prevention
The correct and consistent use of latex condoms during sexual intercourse- vaginal, anal, or oral-can greatly reduce a person’ s risk of acquiring or transmitting most STDs, including HIV infection, gonorrhea, chlamydia, trichomonas, human papilloma virus infection (HPV), and hepatitis B.

A big barrier to containing the HIV virus is cultural differences that make fighting the disease that much more difficult. In some African populations, multiple sexual partners are expected as part of cultural expression. This increases the risk of transmission because of the shear number of sexual contacts, most of them between parties who are unaware one or both of them is HIV infected.
Christine this is absolutely incorrect. HPV is now found in 80% of women who practice sex with multiple partners and is believed to be consistent within men. Men cannot be tested effectively because of the location of HPV but studies are showing women who are virgins get infected at the same rate as men virgins do from women.

The introduction of condoms has only reduced this to 70% a mere 10%. They are finding that condoms are not as preventative as once thought. Condoms are being made thinner and thinner to increase pleasure which seems to compromise the effectiveness of the spread of HPV. Since HPV and HIV are viruses we can’t assume the use of condoms will prevent their spread.

A recent study as mentioned to Bill showed case studies where women who abstained from sex until marriage still got the HPV virus. In each case it was found the husband had multiple partners prior to marriage with condoms in use. I don’t deny condoms can help but they are not the answer and are not proving to be as effective as once thought.

PEACE
 
Thank you for the response. I think I understand the question better now. It’s not that we assume everything is forbidden until we are given permission, it’s that the Church has continuously told us that we can’t use condoms. I don’t want to get into the Church’s scriptural or other reasoning for this decision (frankly, because I’m not that well versed on it) but I think this would be similar to something that Islam forbids you to do.
I think I understand your point of view.

But Islam doesn’t prohibit the use of condoms. Contraception is allowed in Islam, since we know that there was a man who used to have intercourse with a woman and pull out (coitus interruptus) because he didn’t want her to get pregnant. But the Prophet Muhammad (saws) told him that whether or not a baby resulted from the intercourse wasn’t exactly in the man’s power, but in God’s. 🤷
 
Christine this is absolutely incorrect. HPV is now found in 80% of women who practice sex with multiple partners and is believed to be consistent within men. Men cannot be tested effectively because of the location of HPV but studies are showing women who are virgins get infected at the same rate as men virgins do from women.

The introduction of condoms has only reduced this to 70% a mere 10%. They are finding that condoms are not as preventative as once thought. Condoms are being made thinner and thinner to increase pleasure which seems to compromise the effectiveness of the spread of HPV. Since HPV and HIV are viruses we can’t assume the use of condoms will prevent their spread.

A recent study as mentioned to Bill showed case studies where women who abstained from sex until marriage still got the HPV virus. In each case it was found the husband had multiple partners prior to marriage with condoms in use. I don’t deny condoms can help but they are not the answer and are not proving to be as effective as once thought.

PEACE
You may be right, but could you please reveal your sources of this alarming information? 70% to 10% is really drastic!:eek:
 
I think I understand your point of view.

But Islam doesn’t prohibit the use of condoms. Contraception is allowed in Islam, since we know that there was a man who used to have intercourse with a woman and pull out (coitus interruptus) because he didn’t want her to get pregnant. But the Prophet Muhammad (saws) told him that whether or not a baby resulted from the intercourse wasn’t exactly in the man’s power, but in God’s. 🤷
Thats great believe as you do. Ane we as Christians can believe as we do,it works for me ,what about you…
 
You may be right, but could you please reveal your sources of this alarming information? 70% to 10% is really drastic!:eek:
Christine I didn’t say 70% to 10%. I said that HPV is present in over 80% of women and actually men. The demographics of their profile reveal they either had multiple sex partners or slept with a man/woman who had multiple partners. When studying the effects of condoms it was found that condom use only reduced the infection rate of HPV BY 10% to 70%. So the bottom line is condoms are not showing themselves to be as effective as once thought. Given that HIV is a virus just like HPV we have to be cautious about the effects condoms will have on the spread of HIV. This was the whole point of the Pope’s statement and I happen to agree with him 100%. Not that my opinion should matter

As far as the source this is a huge joint study conducted by Harvard Medicine and Johns Hopkins University. The results were presented at the Primed National Conference which my wife attended. So the results are rock solid 🙂
 
Christine I didn’t say 70% to 10%. I said that HPV is present in over 80% of women and actually men. The demographics of their profile reveal they either had multiple sex partners or slept with a man/woman who had multiple partners. When studying the effects of condoms it was found that condom use only reduced the infection rate of HPV BY 10% to 70%. So the bottom line is condoms are not showing themselves to be as effective as once thought. Given that HIV is a virus just like HPV we have to be cautious about the effects condoms will have on the spread of HIV. This was the whole point of the Pope’s statement and I happen to agree with him 100%. Not that my opinion should matter

As far as the source this is a huge joint study conducted by Harvard Medicine and Johns Hopkins University. The results were presented at the Primed National Conference which my wife attended. So the results are rock solid 🙂
10-70 percent is a huge range. I don’t even know what you mean. How did they come up with that range? Who particpated in this study? Please provide me with a website.
 
The Popes truth is killing everyone in Africa. 🤷

Let’s maybe try someone elses truth and see if that works. 👍
.

Whether we deal with the problem of AIDS as a moral issue or a strictly a medical issue, this truth is not killing those men and women who are faithful to their husbands and wives

Whether here in the United States or in Africa, promiscuous sex is destroying lives of unborn children as well as children who have to deal with chaos in the lives of adults who move from one sexual partner to another.

AIDS is only one symptom of a serious problem in not understanding the beauty and responsibility of human sexuality. Other symptoms of this misunderstanding are abortion, child abuse, hunger and poverty.
 
I do not want to see a woman infected by no fault of her own but my concern is that we are lowering the bar for humanity, not just Catholics. You name a religion or social order and I am pretty sure that they will be against promiscuous sex.
Yes… In fact, there’s almost a racist tone to the secular media’s criticism of the Pope. That is, it’s like they are admitting that they don’t believe the Africans are capable of self control, so they need condoms. The pope is calling for a raising of standards–not a lowering of standards or expectations. My great aunt just passed away. She worked in Africa for many years as a medical missionary, and her work taught her to treat with mercy the wounds and illnesses of the Africans, but never to condone the immoral behavior she often witnessed–whether the excuse is it’s “cultural,” or not. Condoms in Africa are like placing bandaids over serious lacerations; it only conceals or delays the problem for a time. What we need to do is get at the root issue…which is a need for new life in Christ.
 
10-70 percent is a huge range. I don’t even know what you mean. How did they come up with that range? Who particpated in this study? Please provide me with a website.
Christine you’re not understanding sister and I apologize if I’m not being clear 🙂 It’s not 10-70%. It’s 80-70%.

Let me try again. Right now if a man or woman engages in unprotected sex with multiple partners, there’s an 80% chance they will get the HPV virus. That’s what the data is showing right now in this large study of over 19,000 people. That the infection rate is an alarming 80%. It’s also why they are developing and actively testing a vaccine for HPV. In women HPV can be deadly as it leads to cervical cancer. They have done some isolated studies with women who have abstained from sex until marriage but still got infected with HPV. In every case they found that the husband had previous sexual partners and the same was true for the males that abstained. The wives in turn had previous multiple partners.

Now here’s the key point to condom use. They also studied the infection rate of HPV in men and woman who used condoms to see if there was a dramatic reduction. As it turns out there was not. If you engage in sexual activity with multiple partners while using a condom the infection rate of HPV drops from 80% to just 70%. So even while using a condom your chances of getting HPV if you sleep with someone who has the virus is 70% which is still dramatically high. Meaning the condom is not doing much to stop the spread of this disease.

The final part of the study showed that when 2 people abstained from sex until marriage the infection rate of HPV was a big fat ZERO. So the results are quite clear that abstinence until marriage is the solution.

Now if we look at HIV and HPV we know they both are viruses. If HPV can still be transmitted 70% of the time while using condoms then we have to remain guarded about the effectiveness of condoms on the spread of HIV. Meaning that just because you use a condom doesn’t mean you won’t get HIV. Again this was the point of the Pope’s presentation and I have no doubt he has the knowledge of these studies which is why he’s making these statements. The man is very intelligent. I hope this helps 🙂

PEACE
 
Christine you’re not understanding sister and I apologize if I’m not being clear 🙂 It’s not 10-70%. It’s 80-70%.
I’m sorry if you’ve given it somewhere and I’ve missed it but have you a link to this study?
 
Yes… In fact, there’s almost a racist tone to the secular media’s criticism of the Pope. That is, it’s like they are admitting that they don’t believe the Africans are capable of self control, so they need condoms. The pope is calling for a raising of standards–not a lowering of standards or expectations. My great aunt just passed away. She worked in Africa for many years as a medical missionary, and her work taught her to treat with mercy the wounds and illnesses of the Africans, but never to condone the immoral behavior she often witnessed–whether the excuse is it’s “cultural,” or not. Condoms in Africa are like placing bandaids over serious lacerations; it only conceals or delays the problem for a time. What we need to do is get at the root issue…which is a need for new life in Christ.
Writer this is so on point. Our church has done and still does missionary work in the Nairobi village. The sexual behavior is ridiculous there. We found a tribe that had not had the Gospel preached to them. They practiced having multiple wives and it was pretty common for the man to offer his wife to a visiting friend while he would go sleep with another woman. It isn’t hard to see why AIDS is so rampant there and as you stated you have to treat with Christ-like mercy. Otherwise it would be pretty easy to say “hey you guys brought this on yourselves now deal with the consequences.”

Well back to the tribe I was telling you about; when they heard the Gospel and decided to adopt Christianity, the tribe leader declared that the men would no longer have partners outside of their wives. They understood that according to the Gospel they should only have one wife but they were already in the situation of in some cases having up to 3. But they vowed to stay faithful to those 3 even though it sounds kind of funny. But this was a major shift within their culture and was a clear sign of the power of the Gospel.

PEACE and GOD Bless your Great Aunt for her awesome missionary work.
 
I’m sorry if you’ve given it somewhere and I’ve missed it but have you a link to this study?
Kaninchen I’ll have to see if it’s online. The study was presented by a joint committee from Johns Hopkins and Harvard Medicine at the Primed National Conference. Primed is a huge continuing education organization for the medical field. My wife attends their conference every year in Baltimore and also listens to their presentations made available online. I don’t know if this study is available to the general public in electronic format but if I can get something for you I certainly will. My wife as well as many physicians were astounded by the results presented. They are actively testing a new HPV vaccine on a cohort of about 5000 patients.

Some other interesting statistics they showed were in women who had sexual intercourse with multiple partners. After 1 year the infection rate of HPV was 30%. After 3 years the infection rate was up to 60%. The data clearly shows that the more partners you have over time the chances of getting infected with HPV start to skyrocket. As mentioned before in looking at the effectiveness of condoms the impact was only a 10% improvement. So that’s like saying 8 out of 10 people will get HPV from unprotected sex with multiple partners. But if you use a condom only 7 out of the 10 will get infected. Basically 1 person less. The concern with this as I said was that HIV like HPV is a virus. If condoms can’t really prevent HPV, then one has to wonder about the effectiveness of preventing HIV.
 
Kaninchen I’ll have to see if it’s online.
Please do, only with the context would things become clear.

For example, I remember somebody - some considerable time ago - bringing up (in ‘Secular News’) a study that appeared to show that condom use was orthogonal to HIV rates - however, if you read the whole report, it showed something far more complex and behavioral - with odd results such as ‘bar girls’ being less vulnerable. It was quite explicable but entirely behavioral - condom use being higher amongst the promiscuous and lower amongst the less promiscuous in the groups under study (in Botswana, if I remember correctly).
 
Writer this is so on point. Our church has done and still does missionary work in the Nairobi village. The sexual behavior is ridiculous there. We found a tribe that had not had the Gospel preached to them. They practiced having multiple wives and it was pretty common for the man to offer his wife to a visiting friend while he would go sleep with another woman. It isn’t hard to see why AIDS is so rampant there and as you stated you have to treat with Christ-like mercy. Otherwise it would be pretty easy to say “hey you guys brought this on yourselves now deal with the consequences.”

Well back to the tribe I was telling you about; when they heard the Gospel and decided to adopt Christianity, the tribe leader declared that the men would no longer have partners outside of their wives. They understood that according to the Gospel they should only have one wife but they were already in the situation of in some cases having up to 3. But they vowed to stay faithful to those 3 even though it sounds kind of funny. But this was a major shift within their culture and was a clear sign of the power of the Gospel.

PEACE and GOD Bless your Great Aunt for her awesome missionary work.
When did this happen, what tribe, and are they still abstaining?

It’s pretty difficult to change a whole culture, by just introducing the Gospels. The tribal leader might have been faking you out.
 
Please do, only with the context would things become clear.

For example, I remember somebody - some considerable time ago - bringing up (in ‘Secular News’) a study that appeared to show that condom use was orthogonal to HIV rates - however, if you read the whole report, it showed something far more complex and behavioral - with odd results such as ‘bar girls’ being less vulnerable. It was quite explicable but entirely behavioral - condom use being higher amongst the promiscuous and lower amongst the less promiscuous in the groups under study (in Botswana, if I remember correctly).
I know what you are saying. You want to understand the entire text.
 
When did this happen, what tribe, and are they still abstaining?

It’s pretty difficult to change a whole culture, by just introducing the Gospels. The tribal leader might have been faking you out.
Christine it happened last year and yes they are still abstaining. One of our pastors was just there visiting with them. The reason we had success was due to the fact that the tribal leader made this declaration. To clarify we didn’t just introduce the Gospel and bingo they made this sudden change. This has been over the course of a few years of missionary work we have done there while preaching the Gospel. We met many Catholic missionaries there who were serving other tribes. The tribal leader wasn’t faking us out as he would have no reason to. They were set in their ways when we first met them but gradually over time they started changing. It was so incredible to see them get baptized. Of course only GOD knows what’s truly in their hearts so we have to continue to pray for them and hope that they really have Christ in their hearts.

PEACE
 
When did this happen, what tribe, and are they still abstaining?

It’s pretty difficult to change a whole culture, by just introducing the Gospels. The tribal leader might have been faking you out.
Actually…that account reminds me of some in my great aunt’s book. When the lives turn towards the true God, there is an awe-inspiring fire for Christ. She saw whole villages turned around. Don’t know what’s happening there now, though. The people were the Dogon of what became the Republic of Mali. She served as a nurse under the Chrisitan Missionary Alliance Church.
 
If these cultures require promiscuous sex with multiple partners, they are not Catholic. If they are not Catholic, why would they care what the Pope has to say about condom use.

My point is that the people who won’t listen when the Pope says to be abstinent/monogamous still won’t listen if the Pope were to say to use condoms when having sex.
But what if the Holy Father did not look at this as a contraception issue, but as a disease prevention issue? Would it then be possible for the Church to advocate use of condoms in order to prevent disease, while the contraceptive effect of condoms was secondary?

Take the use of the Pill for medical reasons. The Church has no objection to its use for endometriosis, as long as the primary reason for using the Pill is not for its contraceptive properties.
 
Do you have any data on this?
From chastity.com Q&A section on STDs “What’s wrong with shipping condoms overseas to help with the AIDS epidemic?”

The paragraphs about Uganda:
"However, there is a clear example of an African nation turning back the epidemic of AIDS by other means. In the late 1980s Uganda was viewed as the worst nation in the world in terms of HIV/AIDS infections.[5] In 1991 22 percent of people in the country were infected with HIV. By 1999 the number had dropped to 6 percent.[6] Ugandan President Yoweri Museveni insists that their unique success among African countries is due to their behavioral approach. He said, “In comparison with other countries per capita expenditure on condoms, we spend far below other developed countries, which emphasize use of condoms in their fight against the disease.”[7] Instead of placing the primary emphasis on condoms, they emphasized abstinence and faithfulness first. As a result, they have experienced the greatest decline in HIV in the world.[8] According to the Journal of International Development, it was “the lack of condom promotion during the 1980s and early 1990s [that] contributed to the relative success of behavior change strategies in Uganda.”[9]

Some “safer sex” advocates attempted to claim credit for the success of Uganda’s AIDS decline. But Dr. Edward Green, a Harvard senior research scientist, ruled out such a connection, since “Uganda shows a significant decline in STDs in the absence of a male condom prevalence rate over 5 [percent].”[10] In fact, condoms were not widely used in Uganda until after much of the HIV decline already had taken place.[11] The real reason for the drop in HIV is that between 1989 and 1995 casual sex in Uganda declined by 65 percent.[12] Some of the sharpest declines took place within the teenage population, which the experts said “took many of us by surprise, since we believed that teenagers are driven by ‘raging hormones,’ therefore abstinence is an unrealistic or impossible objective.”[13] In the words of Dr. Green, who has over two decades of experience in Africa and had previously advocated widespread condom distribution, “Weren’t ‘we’ supposed to teach ‘them’ how to prevent AIDS?”[14]

Unfortunately, the success in Uganda has been undermined in recent years. According to The Washington Post, “The Ugandan turnaround was well underway by the time foreign AIDS experts began to arrive in the early ’90s, bringing with them the Western public health approaches—and values. They began to retool Uganda’s AIDS prevention efforts away from abstinence and fidelity—goals that many Westerners felt were unrealistic. As condom use increased, the percentage of young singles having sex rose from 27 percent to 37 percent between 1995 and 2000.”[15] It seems that only sex-saturated Westerners (who have no handle on their own STD epidemics) are naive enough to expect that condoms will solve the AIDS problem."

References and more info in the original
chastity.com/chastity/index.php?id=7&entryid=234

Hope that helps.
 
But what if the Holy Father did not look at this as a contraception issue, but as a disease prevention issue? Would it then be possible for the Church to advocate use of condoms in order to prevent disease, while the contraceptive effect of condoms was secondary?

Take the use of the Pill for medical reasons. The Church has no objection to its use for endometriosis, as long as the primary reason for using the Pill is not for its contraceptive properties.
The would be against the dignity of individuals that Pope John Paul II was always talking about. Instead of a beautiful thing between two committed adults in the sacrament of marriage, it turns people into objects to be used for a purpose.
Also the way we are talking about this disease it is a pro-active disease that infects people by a action on there part.
 
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