The pope and hiv

[PRmerger]

The would be against the dignity of individuals that Pope John Paul II was always talking about. Instead of a beautiful thing between two committed adults in the sacrament of marriage, it turns people into objects to be used for a purpose.

Would you say that about a woman using the Pill for medical reasons such as endometriosis? How would using the Pill for its hormones turn her into an object to be used for a purpose?

By the same token, how would using a condom for its infection-control properties turn someone into an object?

Also the way we are talking about this disease it is a pro-active disease that infects people by a action on there part.

So what are you saying? We shouldn’t do anything to prevent its spread or lessen the misery made by someone’s choice?

 

[kennewickmike]

Would you say that about a woman using the Pill for medical reasons such as endometriosis? How would using the Pill for its hormones turn her into an object to be used for a purpose?

By the same token, how would using a condom for its infection-control properties turn someone into an object?

So what are you saying? We shouldn’t do anything to prevent its spread or lessen the misery made by someone’s choice?

If you are making the comparison against a married couple that has one partner having aids and is not being an adulterer, I would be ok with a condom.
The discussions we have been having is more directed at people being allowed to use condoms because they are going to have adulteress affairs and are coming home with aids. In that light, a condom is a “safety net” for people to have sex with as many people they want turning them into objects instead of the proper devotion between a married couple.

 

[Bill_Pick]

Why does he think it would make it worse?

Few realize it today, but before 1930 all Christian churches opposed contraception as an unnatural and thus impermissible interference with God’s design for human sexuality.

That changed when, at their 1930 Lambeth Conference, Anglicans began permitting the use of contraception on a limited basis; other denominations quickly absorbed the secular sexual morality that flooded into the Protestant world. Today no Protestant church maintains the historic Christian faith on this issue. Only the Catholic Church has stood firm and resisted the onslaught of secularism in sexual ethics.

 

[Cracker_Mom]

You know, I think to respond medically speaking, condoms do reduce the spread of some diseases in the short term. However, condoms are not fail-proof & the more sexual activity, the greater chances of condom failure.

 

[kalt]

What can make it worse (using a condom) is:

1. They give people a false sense of security. Condoms were never designed to stop viruses such as HIV. The fabric is too loosely woven. It’s meant to stop sperm which are hundreds of times bigger than viruses.
2. Condom use often promotes infidelity since people think they aren’t going to get pregnant or get a disease. We’ve already seen that the second notion is just plain wrong and the first is pretty close to it in that no condom can ever guarantee a woman won’t get pregnant.
3. Condom use promotes the idea that married couples’ bodies are merely objects of sex for their partners not someone with whom one shares the full, uninhibited, and loving embrace of marital sex. Sex in marriage isn’t about what I can get out of it; it’s about what I can give to it.

And those reasons are just for starters.

Thank you for your response.

I wonder who would have sex with someone if they were afraid the other person was HIV positive. And who would have sex with someone, even a spouse, if they were sure the other person was HIV positive.

Condoms don’t provide 100% protection against disease, so who would take that risk?

I think the people in Africa need more education, not more Bandaids. Using a condom reduces the risk, but it doesn’t eliminate the risk. Those people need to be told the truth, that abstinence and marital fidelity are the only 2 things that will truly prevent sexual transmission of the AIDS virus.

Why is that so hard to accept? It seems that people have a hard tiime believing this very easy concept. It’s so simple that a child of 5 can understand it. If you don’t want to catch something, eliminate exposure. It’s so simple.

I think that they want to treat HIV like any other disease. You can’t help being exposed to other diseases, like chicken pox, flu, etc, so we’ve developed inocculations to protect individuals. But HIV is different. It’s a sexually transmitted disease, and I think most thinking people will admit that sex is not necessary to an individuals life. You can live without ever having sex, and you can certainly live without having premarital sex and multiple partners.

Why is this so hard to accept, do you think?

 

[kalt]

Few realize it today, but before 1930 all Christian churches opposed contraception as an unnatural and thus impermissible interference with God’s design for human sexuality.

That changed when, at their 1930 Lambeth Conference, Anglicans began permitting the use of contraception on a limited basis; other denominations quickly absorbed the secular sexual morality that flooded into the Protestant world. Today no Protestant church maintains the historic Christian faith on this issue. Only the Catholic Church has stood firm and resisted the onslaught of secularism in sexual ethics.

Did that decision have anything to do with the eugenics/social Darwinism thinking that was popular at the time?

 

[kalt]

If you are making the comparison against a married couple that has one partner having aids and is not being an adulterer, I would be ok with a condom.
The discussions we have been having is more directed at people being allowed to use condoms because they are going to have adulteress affairs and are coming home with aids. In that light, a condom is a “safety net” for people to have sex with as many people they want turning them into objects instead of the proper devotion between a married couple.

I’m still struggling with the question about who would have sex with someone who is HIV positive, even while using a condom. Who would take that risk? There are more ways to love someone than having sex.

 

[Bill_Pick]

Did that decision have anything to do with the eugenics/social Darwinism thinking that was popular at the time?

Can,t answer that question…

 

[Catholic_Dude]

I’m still struggling with the question about who would have sex with someone who is HIV positive, even while using a condom. Who would take that risk? There are more ways to love someone than having sex.

You hit the nail on the head. Once you ask and stand by that question, you’ve plunged a sword into the heart of the monster.

It is unChristian to unnecessarily risk spreading a disease to another person, yet sending a boatload of condoms gives a false sense of security and encourages people with aids to put others at risk. And those who dont have it are encouraged by the showering down condoms to ‘play the odds’ as long as they can get away without catching the virus.

What the hell kind of Christian spouse would put their partner at risk? It’s as absurd and unChristian as saying you won’t love your spouse anymore if they become physically paralyzed and can’t go for walks outside anymore. You are loving them for the wrong reasons.

 

[josie_L]

The Popes truth is killing everyone in Africa.

Let’s maybe try someone elses truth and see if that works.

In certain countries in Africa, that are currently inundated with condoms, the level of HIV infected is higher than in countries such as Uganda who have taken the ABC (Abstinence, be faithful, and last but not least Character formation) route in order to reduce HIV infection.

"The mantra of changing behavior rather than perpetuating a condom culture resulted in startling developments. In the late 1980s, 50 percent of females 15 to 17 years old had engaged in sex; this was down to 34 percent by 2000. Uganda’s Demographic and Health Survey of 2000-2004 indicated that 93 percent of Ugandans had altered their sexual behavior to avoid HIV/AIDS.

The results were immediately apparent when Uganda’s infection rate began declining. Adult HIV rates dropped from about 30 percent in the early 1990s to 8 percent in 2002. Today, the infection rate hovers at 4.1 percent. President Museveni spoke at a World AIDS Conference in Bangkok in 2004 and declared forcefully that condoms should not be the definitive public health intervention against HIV/AIDS. He was joined in this call to reality by the Kenyan first lady Lucy Kibaki, who regularly teaches school girls that they should delay sex until after marriage and forget about condoms. (See “Why the ABC Message Worked,” page 22.) Uganda’s success made it a model for other African countries and also played a major influence in the current AIDS relief program undertaken by the Bush administration.

Uganda’s progress against AIDS is a story of promoting the culture of life. Everywhere in Africa the Church’s stand on the real ABCs—abstinence, be faithful, and character formation rather than condoms—has been adopted, the HIV/AIDS rates are substantially lower. The 2003 World Factbook of the Central Intelligence Agency reported, for example, Burundi had a 62% Catholic population and a 6% AIDS infection rate; Angola had a 38% Roman Catholic population and a 3.9% AIDS rate; Ghana was 63% Christian with a Catholic population of 12% (in some regions it is as high as 33%) and a 3.1% AIDS rate. In stark contrast, those countries that have steadfastly clung to the myth of condom use as the primary means of preventing the epidemic also have the highest rates of HIV/AIDS. In Botswana, where only 5% of the population is Catholic, 37% of the overall population is infected with HIV/AIDS. In South Africa, with a 7% Catholic population, 22% of the total population is infected."

www.catholic.com/thisrock/2008/0805fea3sb2.asp - 48k

 

[josie_L]

"Nairobi, Kenya–Some experts say the dramatic drop in HIV/AIDS HIV/AIDS Human Immunodeficiency Virus/Acquired Immune Deficiency Syndrome infections in Uganda is proof that abstinence from sex is the best way to combat the deadly disease, especially in the world’s hardest-hit area, sub-Saharan Africa. Infections in the East AfricanAdj. 1. East African - of or relating to or located in East Africa
… Click the link for more information. country, which once had the highest rate in the world, have dropped from 30 percent of the population in the early 1990s to around 10 percent today.

Although promotion of condom use has been a part of Uganda’s HIV/AIDS prevention strategy, the concept of “True Love Awaits” - an abstinence-until-marriage program launched in 1994 and supported by schools and religious organizations - is credited with bringing down the infection rate.

“Abstinence remains the best strategy, especially for the risk group aged 1525 years,” said Dorothy Kwenze, an HIV/ AIDS activist in neighbouring Kenya. “The concept has worked well for Uganda and can work for other African countries.”

According to a study by development experts Rand Stoneburner, Uganda’s prevention model, used elsewhere, has the potential to reduce the AIDS rate in Africa’s worst-stricken countries by 80 percent. Stoneburner, a former Centers for Disease Control and Prevention Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC), agency of the U.S. Public Health Service since 1973, with headquarters in Atlanta; it was established in 1946 as the Communicable Disease Center. and World Health Organization (WHO) epidemiologist, says that that is the same level of efficacy one might expect from an HIV vaccine HIV vaccine AIDS As of mid-2005, there is no viable anti-HIV vaccine. See AIDS."

[www.thefreelibrary.com/Sexual+abstinence+behind+Uganda’s+AIDS+success+story.+(News+in+Brief:...-a0100541404](www.thefreelibrary.com/Sexual+abstinence+behind+Uganda’s+AIDS+success+story.+(News+in+Brief:...-a0100541404) - 23k - Cached

 

[allhers]

Condom fact sheet
hli.org/condom_facts_sheet_failure.html

 

[BareKnuckler]

1. Condom use promotes the idea that married couples’ bodies are merely objects of sex for their partners not someone with whom one shares the full, uninhibited, and loving embrace of marital sex. Sex in marriage isn’t about what I can get out of it; it’s about what I can give to it.

I have never heard that one, guess we all see things different?

 

[Saint_Sinner]

A author in the British Medical Journal noted, “The greater the percentage of Catholics in any country, the lower the level of HIV. If the Catholic Church is promoting a message about HIV in those countries, it seems to be working. On the basis of data from the World Health Organization, in Swaziland where 42.6 percent have HIV, only 5 percent of the population is Catholic. In Botswana, where 37 percent of the adult population is HIV infected, only 4 percent of the population is Catholic. In South Africa, 22 percent of the population is HIV infected, and only 6 percent is Catholic. In Uganda, with 43 percent of the population Catholic, the proportion of HIV infected adults is 4 percent.”[1] In the Philippines, over 80 percent of the population is Catholic, and only .03 percent of the population has HIV.[2]

[1]. Amin Abboud, “Searching for Papal Scapegoats is Pointless,” British Medical Journal 331 (30 July 2005): 294.
[2]. Bureau of Democracy, Human Rights, and Labor, “International Religious Freedom Report 2004,” U.S. Department of State (15 September 2004); UNAIDS “Philippines” Country Situation Analysis (www.unaids.org).

chastity.com/chastity/index.php?id=7&entryid=234

 

[allhers]

…in every country worldwide in which HIV has declined there have been increases in levels of faithfulness and usually abstinence as well.’ The Catholic Church, it is well known, has been at the forefront of such programs. It also operates more hospitals and related medical centers for AIDS patients than any other private institution in the world.

“If condoms were the answer, then why is it that New York City, which under Mayor Michael Bloomberg has given away tens of millions of free condoms, has an HIV rate three times the national average? Furthermore, the promiscuous distribution of condoms in New York has coincided with a spike in sexually transmitted diseases of all sorts. Isn’t it time we learned that condom worship is irrational?

“Anyone who thinks that condom distribution, education and/or research is going to solve a problem which is mostly a function of behavioral recklessness is positively clueless. Not only that, such persons unwittingly contribute to the problem by diverting attention and resources away from that which works.”
catholicleague.org/release.php?id=1582

 

[BareKnuckler]

…in every country worldwide in which HIV has declined there have been increases in levels of faithfulness and usually abstinence as well.’ The Catholic Church, it is well known, has been at the forefront of such programs. It also operates more hospitals and related medical centers for AIDS patients than any other private institution in the world.

“If condoms were the answer, then why is it that New York City, which under Mayor Michael Bloomberg has given away tens of millions of free condoms, has an HIV rate three times the national average? Furthermore, the promiscuous distribution of condoms in New York has coincided with a spike in sexually transmitted diseases of all sorts. Isn’t it time we learned that condom worship is irrational?

“Anyone who thinks that condom distribution, education and/or research is going to solve a problem which is mostly a function of behavioral recklessness is positively clueless. Not only that, such persons unwittingly contribute to the problem by diverting attention and resources away from that which works.”
catholicleague.org/release.php?id=1582

I am pretty sure no one is saying Condoms prevent HIV, but I am pretty sure they don’t make it a more likely situation. How could they? Unless, condoms can be infected with HIV then used, and then spread it, I do not think they can. Whether they encourage sex or not depends on the person, not on a person’s opinoin. Just cause I have sex with a condom doesn’t mean the person I have sex with will have any more of a chance of having HIV.

 

[Praline]

Here are some remarks by Fr. Jonathan Morris from another thread.
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=321793

 

[PRmerger]

In certain countries in Africa, that are currently inundated with condoms, the level of HIV infected is higher than in countries such as Uganda who have taken the ABC (Abstinence, be faithful, and last but not least Character formation) route in order to reduce HIV infection.

Here’s a different point of view…
Stephen Lewis, while UN Special Envoy for HIV/AIDS in Africa, said that PEPFAR’s emphasis on abstinence above condom distribution is a “distortion of the preventive apparatus and is resulting in great damage and undoubtedly will cause significant numbers of infections which should never have occurred” New York Times (2005) ‘U.S. Blamed for Condom Shortage in Fighting AIDS in Uganda’

 

[bbarrick8383]

I am pretty sure no one is saying Condoms prevent HIV, but I am pretty sure they don’t make it a more likely situation. How could they? Unless, condoms can be infected with HIV then used, and then spread it, I do not think they can. Whether they encourage sex or not depends on the person, not on a person’s opinoin. Just cause I have sex with a condom doesn’t mean the person I have sex with will have any more of a chance of having HIV.

What is the first thing a woman usually asks a man before having sex?

Do you have a condom?

Some women in the right frame of mind will stop right there.

Just because you have a condom increases the chance you will have sex with someone. Possibly someone you just met, possibly someone with HIV.

 

[Catholic_Dude]

…in every country worldwide in which HIV has declined there have been increases in levels of faithfulness and usually abstinence as well.’ The Catholic Church, it is well known, has been at the forefront of such programs. It also operates more hospitals and related medical centers for AIDS patients than any other private institution in the world.

“If condoms were the answer, then why is it that New York City, which under Mayor Michael Bloomberg has given away tens of millions of free condoms, has an HIV rate three times the national average? Furthermore, the promiscuous distribution of condoms in New York has coincided with a spike in sexually transmitted diseases of all sorts. Isn’t it time we learned that condom worship is irrational?

“Anyone who thinks that condom distribution, education and/or research is going to solve a problem which is mostly a function of behavioral recklessness is positively clueless. Not only that, such persons unwittingly contribute to the problem by diverting attention and resources away from that which works.”
catholicleague.org/release.php?id=1582