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Brendan_64
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How? Was Christ not led by the Spirit into the desert to be tested?
Is everything that happens in this world not the will of God? If we are tempted then has God not allowed this to happen?
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Is everything that happens in this world not the will of God? If we are tempted then has God not allowed this to happen?
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pnewton
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In translating, literal does not mean better, and inaccurate does not mean erroneous. I see many weighing in that do not understand the dynamics of language very well. Are there Catholics that mirror the Protestants that believe the KJV is the inerrant word of God, inspired and perfected in the translation as well as the original text?
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commenter
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Actually there is another thread on CAF right now discussing that very point on the sky, on the Ominous Trends sub forum.
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KevinK
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How do you know this?
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InThePew
Guest
Tellingly, Ms Allen mentions this in passing but then conveniently (for her) skips past it to rail against Francophone innovations! there was an ecumenical version of the prayer in use (at mass as well as elsewhere) in certain places (including my own) until the new missal. In this respect, it’s simply a matter of liturgical direction which Rome can of course do. What Rome can’t do is mandate the wording of private prayers and devotions. Anyway, here’s what the Catechism has to say on the matter since it’s not referred to in the article:
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runningdude
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You can read it in in the original Greek right here:
https://biblehub.com/interlinear/matthew/6.htm
https://biblehub.com/interlinear/luke/11.htm
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ProVobis
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Actually inducas is second person subjunctive not a command. May you not lead us…
Subtle difference_
Subtle difference_
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CradleRC58
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I can understand Pope Francis seeing that wording as confusing. When I began practicing the faith again after far too many years of not doing so, it threw me off a little bit.
I do have a tendency to say " Deliver Us from the evil one", though I’m not sure why I am moved to do so. I have a suspicion it may have been the way my grandmother on my father’s side prayed it.
I do have a tendency to say " Deliver Us from the evil one", though I’m not sure why I am moved to do so. I have a suspicion it may have been the way my grandmother on my father’s side prayed it.
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CradleRC58
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I think the word please indicates a request rather than a command doesn’t it ?
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Digitnomy
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When attending mass for several years after the 2011 adoption of the 3rd typical edition translation, I would sometimes pray the Our Father tentatively as was my approach to the rest of the mass: thinking ahead as I recited each line to catch myself from using the old translation.
And then remembering it’s the Our Father; it didn’t get a new translation.
And then remembering it’s the Our Father; it didn’t get a new translation.
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Richca
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From what I understand and have read is that ‘and lead us not into temptation’ is nothing else but the literal translation of the greek gospel texts of the words of our Lord Jesus. Apparently, the greek verb means to lead in or bring in and it is used in the active voice or sense and not in the passive sense. This is fitting since as the prayer is addressed to the Father, God is not a passive onlooker on his creation and our salvation but he is pure actuality and by his providence and causality governs everything that happens in the world including permitting the devils to tempt us.
The Catechism of the Council of Trent has a very instructive detailed explanation of this petition of the Lord’s Prayer, namely, ‘and lead us not into temptation’. It distinguishes between two kinds of tempations, i.e., to test or prove or try one’s virtue either in doing good or avoiding evil. The former has a good purpose while the latter has a bad purpose. God does tempt or try us in the first way by inciting us to good deeds as it is written “for the LORD your God is testing you, to know whether you love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul” (Deut. 13:3). The second manner of temptation is a solicitation to evil or sin such as from the devil and God does not tempt us this way except insofar as God permits it for our advantage and good.
The Catechism explains that by the petition ‘and lead us not into temptation’ we do not ask of God to be delivered from all temptations for it is written “My son, if you come forward to serve the Lord, prepare yourself for temptation” (Sirach 2:1). What we do ask for in this petition is that divine assistance or God’s grace not forsake us when we are tempted. Temptation is surely going to come and in various ways and from the devil too which he did in Christ’s temptation in the desert in which Christ left us an example of combating the devil’s temptation, and we surely need God’s assistance and grace in temptation or else we will be conquered by it. The Catechism explains that to be led into temptation is to yield to it and so we petition God here that he ‘lead us not into temptation’, i.e, that He give us the assistance to not yield and succumb to temptation.
The CCC#2846 gives this meaning to this petition of the Lord’s prayer ‘and lead us not into temptation’. It says that it means ‘do not let us yield to temptation.’ However, the CCC also says that this petition can also mean ‘and do not allow us to enter into temptation’ which might make sense if this petition is referred to the ‘final trial’ as some interpreters appear to suggest. But, this interpretation is not realistic if we refer to temptation in general or include all temptations that are inevitable in the christian’s daily life.
The Catechism of the Council of Trent has a very instructive detailed explanation of this petition of the Lord’s Prayer, namely, ‘and lead us not into temptation’. It distinguishes between two kinds of tempations, i.e., to test or prove or try one’s virtue either in doing good or avoiding evil. The former has a good purpose while the latter has a bad purpose. God does tempt or try us in the first way by inciting us to good deeds as it is written “for the LORD your God is testing you, to know whether you love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul” (Deut. 13:3). The second manner of temptation is a solicitation to evil or sin such as from the devil and God does not tempt us this way except insofar as God permits it for our advantage and good.
The Catechism explains that by the petition ‘and lead us not into temptation’ we do not ask of God to be delivered from all temptations for it is written “My son, if you come forward to serve the Lord, prepare yourself for temptation” (Sirach 2:1). What we do ask for in this petition is that divine assistance or God’s grace not forsake us when we are tempted. Temptation is surely going to come and in various ways and from the devil too which he did in Christ’s temptation in the desert in which Christ left us an example of combating the devil’s temptation, and we surely need God’s assistance and grace in temptation or else we will be conquered by it. The Catechism explains that to be led into temptation is to yield to it and so we petition God here that he ‘lead us not into temptation’, i.e, that He give us the assistance to not yield and succumb to temptation.
The CCC#2846 gives this meaning to this petition of the Lord’s prayer ‘and lead us not into temptation’. It says that it means ‘do not let us yield to temptation.’ However, the CCC also says that this petition can also mean ‘and do not allow us to enter into temptation’ which might make sense if this petition is referred to the ‘final trial’ as some interpreters appear to suggest. But, this interpretation is not realistic if we refer to temptation in general or include all temptations that are inevitable in the christian’s daily life.
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Richca
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(continued)
Since the Lord’s Prayer was taught by Jesus himself it is considered in Tradition a most perfect prayer that in the words of St Augustine “if we pray rightly and fittingly, we can say nothing else but what is contained in this prayer of our Lord” and which Tertullian called a compendium of the gospel. In other words, the petitions in the Lord’s Prayer are universal and so this petition concerning temptations includes every kind of temptation that may present itself to us daily.
Accordingly, the changes being introduced into the Our Father in the liturgical celebrations of the Church that follow the meaning of ‘lead us not into temptation’ the CCC gives as “and do not allow us to enter into temptation” such as ‘do not abandon us to temptation’ or ‘do not let us fall into temptation’ are not accurate or desirable in my opinion. This is like praying that God spare us temptations which is not biblical, not what happened to Christ whom we follow as our example, and not what a christian is going to experience who is earnest in following Christ and the way of the cross which Jesus was certainly aware of who composed this most beautiful prayer. The devil is most active against earnest Christians as St Peter says “your opponent, the devil, is prowling around like a roaring lion looking for someone to devour”. And St James calls blessed the man who endures trial or temptation “Blessed is the man who endures trial, for when he has stood the test he will receive the crown of life which God has promised to those who love him” (James 1: 12). Why would Jesus have us petition the Father to spare us temptations when both he and the Father said in Sirach 2:1 “My son, if you come forward to serve the Lord, prepare yourself for temptation”? And the Catechism of the Council of Trent explains that we do not ask to be totally exempt from temptations in this petition from either of the two kinds the catechism mentions (which I mentioned above) and which are to our own advantage.
Obviously, the interpretations ‘do not abandon us to temptation’ or ‘do not let us fall into temptation’ are going to need explaining similar to a catechesis on ‘and lead us not into temptation’. I mean, when a christian experiences temptation, are they going to think that God has abandoned them? On the contrary, this is when we especially as it were need God and his assistance which is precisely what the Church has traditionally understood and taught in this petition. Accordingly, it could be argued what’s the point in changing a translation that is linguistically and literally correct to something else that is linguistically or grammatically questionable from what I understand as well as having biblical and explanatory problems in various ways as I have noted.
The interpretations ‘do not abandon us to temptation’ or ‘do not let us fall into temptation’ would make more sense I believe if they read ‘do not abandon us in temptation’ and ‘do not let us fall in temptation’. This would carry the traditional understanding of this petition as well as that meaning the CCC gives as ‘do not let us yield to temptation’. Ultimately, we can’t improve Christ’s own words.
Since the Lord’s Prayer was taught by Jesus himself it is considered in Tradition a most perfect prayer that in the words of St Augustine “if we pray rightly and fittingly, we can say nothing else but what is contained in this prayer of our Lord” and which Tertullian called a compendium of the gospel. In other words, the petitions in the Lord’s Prayer are universal and so this petition concerning temptations includes every kind of temptation that may present itself to us daily.
Accordingly, the changes being introduced into the Our Father in the liturgical celebrations of the Church that follow the meaning of ‘lead us not into temptation’ the CCC gives as “and do not allow us to enter into temptation” such as ‘do not abandon us to temptation’ or ‘do not let us fall into temptation’ are not accurate or desirable in my opinion. This is like praying that God spare us temptations which is not biblical, not what happened to Christ whom we follow as our example, and not what a christian is going to experience who is earnest in following Christ and the way of the cross which Jesus was certainly aware of who composed this most beautiful prayer. The devil is most active against earnest Christians as St Peter says “your opponent, the devil, is prowling around like a roaring lion looking for someone to devour”. And St James calls blessed the man who endures trial or temptation “Blessed is the man who endures trial, for when he has stood the test he will receive the crown of life which God has promised to those who love him” (James 1: 12). Why would Jesus have us petition the Father to spare us temptations when both he and the Father said in Sirach 2:1 “My son, if you come forward to serve the Lord, prepare yourself for temptation”? And the Catechism of the Council of Trent explains that we do not ask to be totally exempt from temptations in this petition from either of the two kinds the catechism mentions (which I mentioned above) and which are to our own advantage.
Obviously, the interpretations ‘do not abandon us to temptation’ or ‘do not let us fall into temptation’ are going to need explaining similar to a catechesis on ‘and lead us not into temptation’. I mean, when a christian experiences temptation, are they going to think that God has abandoned them? On the contrary, this is when we especially as it were need God and his assistance which is precisely what the Church has traditionally understood and taught in this petition. Accordingly, it could be argued what’s the point in changing a translation that is linguistically and literally correct to something else that is linguistically or grammatically questionable from what I understand as well as having biblical and explanatory problems in various ways as I have noted.
The interpretations ‘do not abandon us to temptation’ or ‘do not let us fall into temptation’ would make more sense I believe if they read ‘do not abandon us in temptation’ and ‘do not let us fall in temptation’. This would carry the traditional understanding of this petition as well as that meaning the CCC gives as ‘do not let us yield to temptation’. Ultimately, we can’t improve Christ’s own words.
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guanophore
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I like your way of understanding it. The issue is that the tradition of the Church is Lex Orandi Lex Crendendi
We do not believe that God “leads” us into temptation.
“No one, when tempted, should say, “I am being tempted by God”; for God cannot be tempted by evil and he himself tempts no one.” James 1:13
So if there is a change, it would be to highlight this theological point.
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Phemie
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Even though I’d read your post before my trip to Ottawa, I got caught at Midnight Mass because this was my first French Mass since August and as you’ve explained the change didn’t officially occur until the First Sunday of Advent.
I kind of wish they’d simply returned to the words we prayed in our childhood.
I kind of wish they’d simply returned to the words we prayed in our childhood.
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