The Pope and the Lord's Prayer

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Oh, good grief. If he talked about the sky being blue, somebody would claim it was “an accommodation with secular culture.”

Phttttt.
 
Doesn’t “et ne nos inducas in tentationem” translate to “and lead us not into temptation”?
 
The bishops want “do not abandon us to temptation.”

And where is the purported accommodation with secular culture?
 
You assume that the Latin translation was perfect. I wonder if we could take it further back to the most reliable ancient manuscripts. At the moment I am not sure how to do that, but I imagine biblical scholars have already done it.
 
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Well, if the Latin is wrong, that means the Vulgate is wrong, and that’s a doctrinal error, not just a mere esthetic problem. Didn’t the Council of Trent declare that the Vulgate contains no theological errors?
Anyway, I’m pretty sure that’s how it’s written in the original.
 
Raph said:
Well, if the Latin is wrong, that means the Vulgate is wrong, and that’s a doctrinal error, not just a mere esthetic problem. Didn’t the Council of Trent declare that the Vulgate contains no theological errors?
Anyway, I’m pretty sure that’s how it’s written in the original.
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Changing the translation is not to say or imply that the original has theological problems of any sort.

Any more than the fact that there are multiple approved English translations of the Latin Vulgate Bible means that all but the most recent have theological errors.
 
KevinK said:
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Note some of the other translations used by the Catholic Church:

Rheims 1582
OVR FATHER which art in heauen, sanctified be thy name.
Let thy Kingdom come. Thy wil be done, as in heauen, in earth also.
Give vs today our supersubsta`tial bread.
And forgiue vs our debtes, as we also forgiue our debtors,
And leade vs not into tentatio`. But deliuer vs from euil.
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Rheims-Challoner 1752
Our Father who art in heaven, hallowed be thy name.
Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven.
Give us this day our supersubstantial bread.
And forgive us our debts, as we also forgive our debtors.
And lead us not into temptation. But deliver us from evil.
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Jerusalem Bible 1966
Our Father in heaven, may your name be held holy,
your kingdom come, your will be done, on earth as in heaven.
Give us today our daily bread.
And forgive us our debts, as we have forgiven those who are in debt to us.
And do not put us to the test, but save us from the evil one.
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New American Bible 1970
Our Father in heaven, hallowed be your name,
your kingdom come, your will be done on earth as it is in heaven.
Give us today our daily bread,
and forgive us the wrong we have done as we forgive those who wrong us.
Subject us not to the trial but deliver us from the evil one.
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New American Bible Revised NT 1986
Our Father in heaven, hallowed be your name,
your kingdom come, your will be done, on earth as in heaven.
Give us today our daily bread;
and forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors;
and do not subject us to the final test, but deliver us from the evil one.
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NRSV-CE 1989
Our Father in heaven, hallowed be your name.
Your kingdom come. Your will be done, on earth as it is in heaven.
Give us this day our daily bread.
And forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors.
And do not bring us to the time of trial, but rescue us from the evil one
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The irony is that this is not the first time the translation has been changed, in French. When I was a child, it was “ne nous laisse pas succomber à la tentation” (do not let us succumb to temptation). Most recently it was “ne nous soumets pas à la tentation” (do not submit us to temptation) which is a poor translation and makes it seem as if it is God, and not the devil, who tempts us.

The new change “ne nous laisse pas entrer en tentation” (do not let us enter into temptation) suggests instead that we turn to God to protect us from temptation. Much better, and much closer to what I prayed as a kid.

This is a welcome change and if the author of the article would take her blinders off, brings us back to the what we New before the Council changes kicked in.

Nothing to see here folks except another agenda-driven hater of Pope Francis. For shame.
 
It’s fine how it is.

We’re simply asking God to lead us somewhere other than where we tend to lead ourselves when we go it alone.

“Lead us not into temptation, but deliver us…”

Says simply “save me from myself”, or "Lead me not down my own path (that of temptation), but God’s path instead (deliverance).

Anyway, that’s how I think of it.
So, hands off my Lords Prayer, please, Francis.
 
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Nigel7 said:
So, hands off my Lords Prayer, please, Francis.
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Not “your” prayer, and not your decision.
Obviously, there has been an issue, otherwise the change would not have occurred. Can’t we just once give the Holy Father the benefit of the doubt on this forum?!

I agree with @OraLabora, for shame.:roll_eyes:
 
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CilladeRoma said:
Not “your” prayer, and not your decision.
Obviously, there has been an issue, otherwise the change would not have occurred. Can’t we just once give the Holy Father the benefit of the doubt on this forum?!

I agree with @OraLabora, for shame.:roll_eyes:
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You just scolded and shamed me for my opinion that I like the Lords prayer fine the way it is?
What the heck’s the matter with you, friend?
 
Nigel7 said:
You just scolded and shamed me for my opinion that I like the Lords prayer fine the way it is?
What the heck’s the matter with you, friend?
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You do realize that you issued a command to the Pope don’t you? Don’t you think that’s a wee bit presumptuous?
 
Dacinom said:
I am a Catechist, and I have had to explain to COUNTLESS young people, that God does not tempt them.
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God does not tempt us, but does he not allow us to be tempted? Was Jesus not led into the desert to be put to the test? Is the line, “lead us not into temptation” not a prayer asking not to be tested in this way?
 
It can end up being a “how many angels can dance on the head of a pin” type discussion.

Roma locuta est, causa finita est.

I did get caught using the wrong line at Midnight Mass at Christmas. Just tired after a long day (the Lord’s Prayer is chanted in French plainchant at the abbey). For private prayer, i.e. the Liturgy of the Hours, I just use Latin which has not changed 😛
 
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I don’t know if my assumption is right but this change might be caused by the pope’s own language, after all in Spanish and Portuguese the direct translation of this passage is “do not let us fall into temptation”, so maybe this has made him take such decision. Who knows?
 
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OraLabora said:
You do realize that you issued a command to the Pope don’t you? Don’t you think that’s a wee bit presumptuous?
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That’s just silly. It wasn’t a command. It was a request, followed by “please”. And it is my opinion, and this is a public forum.

“You just issued a command to pope Francis”

Haha 😁
 
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