The Pope as ground of Church unity

[GKC]

C. S. Lewis was a brilliant apologist who brought many into the fold of Christianity, and his books are still powerful. He moved Christians towards unity, by focusing on God, and the reader, but starting with his own, continuing conversion. We need him today!

His books such as “The Abolition of Man” and “That Hideous Strength” accurately project how secularism would rise. IMHO, his assessment of the strengths and weaknesses of the churches was much less accurate. He could foresee Hilary rising, but not Katherine. Based on my reading of him, I think he believed the papacy unnecessary to unity, since doctrinal fidelity could be maintained by a balance of scripture, tradition, and ongoing care by scholars, bishops, and the faithful. I don’t think he realized how much the Magisterium indirectly - in a limited way - guided churches that claimed they didn’t need a Magisterium. He didn’t foresee how much some non-Magisterium churches would, after 1960, collapse under secularism, particularly the media. That said, I think he helped me more than any other writer, and I am grateful.

In 1960 “church unity” presumed that all Christians (of course) followed the same New Testament canon, followed the same core traditions of faith, morality, decency, prolife, and the Natural Law, but just needed to be friendlier and cooperate. The papacy didn’t seem so crucial, since all Christians were floating the right way, many without it.

What about the world of 2014?

I agree with this, generally. And you mentioned my 2 favorite CSL books.

GKC, collector of Lewis for 50 years.

 

[EvangelCatholic]

In light of the Declaration on the Doctrine of Justification, the papacy received considerable attention with the expectation that Lutherans accept the pastoral office and stay clear from any infallibility issues.

I think Lutherans can make the adjustment fairly well since the personality of the Pope is positively received by many Christians. I look forward to reunion of all Catholics.

 

[spina1953]

I have a question and maybe our Eastern rite Catholic’s might be able to answer it and that is does the Pope in Rome interfere with the Catholic Churches of the East that are in communion with Rome? and does the Pope tell the Eastern Catholic’s how they are to worship, or are they free to worship as to their traditions that they have had since the beginning?

I seem to think that the Pope does not get into every issue that goes on in the various catholic Churches around the world and leaves that to the bishops themselves and to those who are Patriarches to run their Churches that they are in charge of. If I am incorrect please let me know.

 

[rcwitness]

In light of the Declaration on the Doctrine of Justification, the papacy received considerable attention with the expectation that Lutherans accept the pastoral office and stay clear from any infallibility issues.

I think Lutherans can make the adjustment fairly well since the personality of the Pope is positively received by many Christians. I look forward to reunion of all Catholics.

Without really knowing what you are trying to convey here, It made me think about the statements Francis made when a statue of him was being placed somewhere in Argentina, I think. He condemned the “cult of personality” and requested they not install the statue.

I have a question… does the Pope in Rome interfere with the Catholic Churches of the East that are in communion with Rome? and does the Pope tell the Eastern Catholic’s how they are to worship, or are they free to worship as to their traditions that they have had since the beginning?

Good question. I too think the ‘fear’ and opposition to universal jurisdiction is more based on protestant lack of faith that God protects Apostolic Teaching, or more specifically Papal Teaching, than actual instances in which Papal Teaching has gone against Christ.

IOW, there is the fear of what might happen as opposed to what has happened and what we believe the Lord will not allow to happen. Christians will fall into sin and believe in false Teachings because they are not letting the Holy Spirit guide their conscience and understanding of Catholic Teaching. Not because they faithfully submit to the Church.

 

[Peter_J]

I have a question and maybe our Eastern rite Catholic’s might be able to answer it and that is does the Pope in Rome interfere with the Catholic Churches of the East that are in communion with Rome? and does the Pope tell the Eastern Catholic’s how they are to worship, or are they free to worship as to their traditions that they have had since the beginning?

I seem to think that the Pope does not get into every issue that goes on in the various catholic Churches around the world and leaves that to the bishops themselves and to those who are Patriarches to run their Churches that they are in charge of. If I am incorrect please let me know.

Well, let me put it this way: there are many reasons that various ECs have “gone home” to their mother EO churches. (I’m basing this both on direct conversations and third-party conversations.) I’m reluctant to say too too much on such a public venue, as it could stray into an “airing dirty laundry” kind of thing, but definitively one factor (pretty significant or pretty minor, depending whom you ask) is the Pope telling ECs how to worship and other kinds of interference you referred to.

But what’s really important, I’d say, is two things: first, that we Catholics do not seek to convert Orthodox to Catholicism; second, that we hope that those who are Eastern Catholic (in communion with Rome) will remain so.

 

[spina1953]

Well, let me put it this way: there are many reasons that various ECs have “gone home” to their mother EO churches. (I’m basing this both on direct conversations and third-party conversations.) I’m reluctant to say too too much on such a public venue, as it could stray into an “airing dirty laundry” kind of thing, but definitively one factor (pretty significant or pretty minor, depending whom you ask) is the Pope telling ECs how to worship and other kinds of interference you referred to.

But what’s really important, I’d say, is two things: first, that we Catholics do not seek to convert Orthodox to Catholicism; second, that we hope that those who are Eastern Catholic (in communion with Rome) will remain so.

Hi Peter J: I to am not looking to convert anyone. but maybe I did not phase my question correctly. I just wanted to know and understand if our Catholic brethren who are in union with the Pope are as so many Orthodox think and say that the Pope tells the Churches what to do and are not able to run themselves etc. IOWS does the Pope tell the EC how to run their churches or tell them what traditions they can or can not do?

 

[Peter_J]

Hi Peter J: I to am not looking to convert anyone. but maybe I did not phase my question correctly.

The way you phrased it was no problem; it’s not that I thought you were trying to convert anyone, but I brought that up because it’s an important point to emphasize: Catholics and Orthodox may (well, do ) disgree on whether ECs ought to stay in the Roman Communion or go Orthodox, but we agree not to try to convert additional Orthodox to Catholicism.

I just wanted to know and understand if our Catholic brethren who are in union with the Pope are as so many Orthodox think and say that the Pope tells the Churches what to do and are not able to run themselves etc. IOWS does the Pope tell the EC how to run their churches or tell them what traditions they can or can not do?

The short answer here would be, I think those complains are exaggerated.

But (as you’ve probably already guessed) the “short answer” is pretty imperfect. Many complicating factors could be brought up, e.g. imposed latinizations vs. voluntary latinizations.

In any case, if someone is looking for a church just like Orthodoxy, then he/she is unlikely to find it among the Eastern Catholics.

 

[spina1953]

The way you phrased it was no problem; it’s not that I thought you were trying to convert anyone, but I brought that up because it’s an important point to emphasize: Catholics and Orthodox may (well, do ) disgree on whether ECs ought to stay in the Roman Communion or go Orthodox, but we agree not to try to convert additional Orthodox to Catholicism.

The short answer here would be, I think those complains are exaggerated.

But (as you’ve probably already guessed) the “short answer” is pretty imperfect. Many complicating factors could be brought up, e.g. imposed latinizations vs. voluntary latinizations.

In any case, if someone is looking for a church just like Orthodoxy, then he/she is unlikely to find it among the Eastern Catholics.

Hi Peter J: I agree with what you have said. The main reason as to why the question in the first place was due to Orthodox posters who say that or imply that the CC or IOWS the Pope runs all of the Churches in union with Rome. I was my understanding as a Catholic that Churches in union with Rome follow their own traditions which are different than from the Latin rite Catholic’s, and that the Pope rarely interferes with how the Bishops and Patriarches run the Churches in their regions and authority. It is my understanding that the Orthodox seem to think that if they were to reunite with Rome that Rome or the Pope is going to tell them how to run their Churches. I know that there are many reasons that the Orthodox say that prevents them from wanting to come into union with the CC. But maybe trying to solve one question at a time might help in understanding the differences between us.

 

[wynd]

Hi Peter J: I agree with what you have said. The main reason as to why the question in the first place was due to Orthodox posters who say that or imply that the CC or IOWS the Pope runs all of the Churches in union with Rome. I was my understanding as a Catholic that Churches in union with Rome follow their own traditions which are different than from the Latin rite Catholic’s, and that the Pope rarely interferes with how the Bishops and Patriarches run the Churches in their regions and authority. It is my understanding that the Orthodox seem to think that if they were to reunite with Rome that Rome or the Pope is going to tell them how to run their Churches. I know that there are many reasons that the Orthodox say that prevents them from wanting to come into union with the CC. But maybe trying to solve one question at a time might help in understanding the differences between us.

I believe that if we were to reunite, Rome would (at least initially) be walking on eggshells to avoid even giving the appearance of trying to, as you say, tell the Orthodox how to run our churches. Our objection comes from the fact that according to the rules of the Catholic Church Rome reserves the right to change that at any time. It’s not about what would happen, but what could happen.

 

[JonNC]

In light of the Declaration on the Doctrine of Justification, the papacy received considerable attention with** the expectation that Lutherans accept the pastoral office and stay clear from any infallibility issues. **

I think Lutherans can make the adjustment fairly well since the personality of the Pope is positively received by many Christians. I look forward to reunion of all Catholics.

I agree, but your comment is about 475 years behind that of Melanchthon:

"Regarding the Pope I hold that, if he would allow the Gospel, his superiority over the bishops which he has otherwise, is conceded to him by human right also by us, for the sake of the peace and general unity of those Christians who are also under him, and may be under him hereafter"



Jon

 

[spina1953]

I believe that if we were to reunite, Rome would (at least initially) be walking on eggshells to avoid even giving the appearance of trying to, as you say, tell the Orthodox how to run our churches. Our objection comes from the fact that according to the rules of the Catholic Church Rome reserves the right to change that at any time. It’s not about what would happen, but what could happen.

Hi wynd: I understand. I do not know of this rule you speak of that the CC would change the traditions of the Orthodox Churches. Maybe you could show me where you found that rule? I would at least like to think that the Orthodox if they were to reunite with the CC that they would still be able to run their Churches as they have in the past. if something would change I would think that first of all there would be some agreement with the Patriarchs and or Bishops as to what they feel is needed in order to run their Churches in the manor that is proper to them. I could be wrong as generally I am most of the time but oh well I am wanting to learn.

 

[wynd]

Hi wynd: I understand. I do not know of this rule you speak of that the CC would change the traditions of the Orthodox Churches. Maybe you could show me where you found that rule? I would at least like to think that the Orthodox if they were to reunite with the CC that they would still be able to run their Churches as they have in the past. if something would change I would think that first of all there would be some agreement with the Patriarchs and or Bishops as to what they feel is needed in order to run their Churches in the manor that is proper to them. I could be wrong as generally I am most of the time but oh well I am wanting to learn.

The Eastern Code of Canon Law states that the pope has “full, immediate and universal ordinary power in the Church which he can always freely exercise.” Again, I don’t think that Rome really would try, but the fact that Rome reserves that unrestricted right is the sticking point.

 

[spina1953]

The Eastern Code of Canon Law states that the pope has “full, immediate and universal ordinary power in the Church which he can always freely exercise.” Again, I don’t think that Rome really would try, but the fact that Rome reserves that unrestricted right is the sticking point.

Hi wynd: Ok I understand. I really did not think that Rome would try to run Orthodox Churches that came into union with Rome, Do you think that the Orthodox really think that the Pope or Rome is willing to interfere with how they run their Churches or take whatever authority they have away from them? I would think that Rome or the Pope have enough on their plate to want to even try and tell the orthodox how to manage their Churches, but I could be wrong as while I think Pope Francis might not any Pope coming after him might I guess.

 

[wynd]

Hi wynd: Ok I understand. I really did not think that Rome would try to run Orthodox Churches that came into union with Rome, Do you think that the Orthodox really think that the Pope or Rome is willing to interfere with how they run their Churches or take whatever authority they have away from them? I would think that Rome or the Pope have enough on their plate to want to even try and tell the orthodox how to manage their Churches, but I could be wrong as while I think Pope Francis might not any Pope coming after him might I guess.

Once again: No, I don’t think Rome would try. No, I don’t think Rome would want to. But the fact remains, if Rome ever changes her mind and DOES want to (which has happened in the past), we would have no choice but to accept it under the current Eastern Catholic code of canon law.

 

[spina1953]

Once again: No, I don’t think Rome would try. No, I don’t think Rome would want to. But the fact remains, if Rome ever changes her mind and DOES want to (which has happened in the past), we would have no choice but to accept it under the current Eastern Catholic code of canon law.

Hi wynd: Concur. I was wondering since and I could be wrong about it all but Catholic’s of the various rite in union with Rome I think seem to run their churches without interference from Rome or the Pope. I suppose that Rome could very well as it had sometimes in the past want to change something that Orthodox do, But to my mind I see no reason as to why they would want to. I also think that Current Eastern canon law could be changed to reflect the ancient traditions of the Orthodox Churches and the way they are run. I do not know if that would be acceptable, but its a thought. I do in my heart like to see us Catholic’s and Orthodox come back into union, when that will if ever happen only God knows. I like to think we should look at one another with the eyes of faith.

 

[commenter]

In terms of the thread, referring to the pope as potential ground for Church unity, maybe the best place to start is to ask whether the pope has been a ground of Church unity, in the Western, or Latin rite.

Keep in mind this Rite is spread well over a hundred counties for centuries, some places far longer, under conditions extremely different from one place to another, and one time to another, with countless languages, cultures, political conditions, and varying spiritual expressions; variation that continues to this day.

Do you consider the Latin Rite united?

Has the institution of the papacy been more or less a ground of Church unity within this Rite over the centuries? Is Pope Francis a ground of Church unity for this Rite today? The question isn’t whether the papacy is perfect, but has it served, most of the time, as a ground of Church unity for this group of hundreds of millions of people?

 

[Peter_J]

In terms of the thread, referring to the pope as potential ground for Church unity, maybe the best place to start is to ask whether the pope has been a ground of Church unity, in the Western, or Latin rite.

Keep in mind this Rite is spread well over a hundred counties for centuries, some places far longer, under conditions extremely different from one place to another, and one time to another, with countless languages, cultures, political conditions, and varying spiritual expressions; variation that continues to this day.

Do you consider the Latin Rite united?

Has the institution of the papacy been more or less a ground of Church unity within this Rite over the centuries? Is Pope Francis a ground of Church unity for this Rite today? The question isn’t whether the papacy is perfect, but has it served, most of the time, as a ground of Church unity for this group of hundreds of millions of people?

I’m not sure whether you mean the Latin Church or the Roman Rite.

 

[commenter]

I’m not sure whether you mean the Latin Church or the Roman Rite.

I meant that part of Christianity where the liturgy was once offered universally in Latin (and still is, where people use the EF).

I am certainly interested in your comments also on the pope’s role as ground of unity across other rites (Churches) in union with Rome; with (potentially) the Eastern Orthodox; OO; and (potentially) with Protestants. But at the moment I am interested in the Rite I just described. Do people in the Eastern Catholic Churches, EO, OO, and Protestants consider THAT Rite united?

If that Rite isn’t united, that casts doubt on the pope as ground of unity with Christians anywhere. If it is united, that info is relevant to the thread topic, too.

 

[Peter_J]

I meant that part of Christianity where the liturgy was once offered universally in Latin (and still is, where people use the EF).

Thank you. I figured some clarification was in order, since the Latin Church has several rites – the Roman Rite is the most well known, but there’s also the Mozarabic Rite, the Bragan Rite, the Ambrosian Rite etc. I was inclined to interpret your post as referring to the entire Latin Church, not just the Roman Rite, but I’m reluctant to put words in anyone’s mouth.

 

[benhur]

C. S. Lewis was a brilliant apologist who brought many into the fold of Christianity, and his books are still powerful. He moved Christians towards unity, by focusing on God, and the reader, but starting with his own, continuing conversion. We need him today!

His books such as “The Abolition of Man” and “That Hideous Strength” accurately project how secularism would rise. IMHO, his assessment of the strengths and weaknesses of the churches was much less accurate. He could foresee Hilary rising, but not Katherine. Based on my reading of him, I think he believed the papacy unnecessary to unity, since doctrinal fidelity could be maintained by a balance of scripture, tradition, and ongoing care by scholars, bishops, and the faithful. I don’t think he realized how much the Magisterium indirectly - in a limited way - guided churches that claimed they didn’t need a Magisterium. He didn’t foresee how much some non-Magisterium churches would, after 1960, collapse under secularism, particularly the media. That said, I think he helped me more than any other writer, and I am grateful.

In 1960 “church unity” presumed that all Christians (of course) followed the same New Testament canon, followed the same core traditions of faith, morality, decency, prolife, and the Natural Law, but just needed to be friendlier and cooperate. The papacy didn’t seem so crucial, since all Christians were floating the right way, many without it.

What about the world of 2014?

Actually that is the magisterium , scholars , bishops , the “faithful”. That some depart from the faith, becoming unfaithful in a matter, happens with or without a pope.