The Pope Is Truly Living In A Different Time

[pnewton]

Aren’t Catholics still being persucuted even in America in the media? Catholics don’t hide from a comparasion that Bill Maher said about “The Pope being a Nazi”, but they did compromise on his mode for transportation? I don’t understand the logic of this at all and I hope someone can rectify this for me. :knight1:

Christians will always be persecuted. Suffering is a part of our faith. There is no need to invite more through carelessness. Jesus escaped when the Pharisees tried to kill him because his time had not yet come. If someone wants to assassinate the Pope, there is a chance that they will do so, even with precautions. If you remember on of the temptations of Jesus was to throw himself down from the parapet of the temple and let the angels save him. The sin of presumption means we must never test God. It is not we who choose to be martyrs, but God who chooses us.

 

[Franze]

It´s important being prudent in the current times, The Pope must do a lot of things in the church and we need him much more years because the situation of the church is very worrying.

 

[Santi2]

I see it that it would show courage to ride without such a protective vehicle and had faith that he would be alright instead of relying on technology to put his faith into. What does this display say about this man and his belief in the faith. Nothing good as I see it.

If you think I am offbase for having this observation, then ask yourself would others in history that could have avoided dying changed their plans or would they have relied on their faith to protect them from potential or percieved harm?

What happened to the glory and heroism of Christian martyrs?

The Holy Father’s display of courage and faith? I can offer this.

archive.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2007/6/6/71407.shtml

There’s a newsclip available on YouTube if you wish to see it for yourself.

 

[FightingFat]

I’d rather have a live Holy Father so that we can benefit from his wisdom than a dead if brave martyr.

St. Edmund Campion was a heroic martyr, but he was also an erudite scholar and one can’t help wondering how much more he could have done for the Church if he had lived a little longer…

 

[jc-servant]

He is more at risk in the popemobile with the windows down (as he did in DC for part of the “parade”) than in a regular armored limo. He also paused in open areas where someone could have gotten him if they really wanted. I don’t think that this pope is any less brave or willing to take one for the faith than any before him.

The US govt. decided to use the extreme level of security seen on this visit. There is not much more that the Secret Service could pile on and they don’t exactly let the protectee do whatever they please. As has been said, going one’s own way places many others at higher risk and it just is not the right thing to do.

 

[Ryan29]

Ever see the silly uniforms the Swiss Guards wear? The reason they are dressed in such goofy outfits and stand around with halbeards and wear even sillier looking helmets is they go back many centuries. Popes were always protected not only by bullet prooof glass or other types of armor, but castles and armies./QUOTE]

Your tone here was light and understanding and it was very even tempered. Yet, against Muslims with rifles and bombs, and not to mention a faith that is ever growing in the world (even in Sweden of all places) what can the Swiss Guard really do to protect the faith or a plot. It seems to be more ceremonial than functional, unless terrorists and would-be assassins are afraid of red like bulls to the matador.
grandfather;3569110:

Having one pope shot by a Muslim lunatic is not enough for you. Maybe he should fire all the Swiss Guards and get rid of the Vatican security systems.

But here you were just absurd and if you had read my post closely I expressed the reason why he needed it because of assassination.:banghead:

 

[Ryan29]

I do see your point abnd have had this thought as well. It is sad to see.
Of course your historical reference would depend on the individual Pontiff. Benedict is quite different from his predecessor, more private, so the 'Popemobile" is perhaps more appropriate to him, However I’m sure it was a horrible niusance to to JPII even after the assasination attempt.
The problem for the Pope, or any such figure, is that there are people charged with protecting them. These people must be allowed to do their jobs so the “figure” becomes a prisoner, in a sense, to the competing need for protection and exposition.

I don’t think you are off base, but today’s world is certainly different from the past. Just look at the relative measures taken for ANY public figure.

Their heroism and Faith still stand as beacons.
Also please bear in mind that the Popes have had protection for a great many years. The fancy Swiss Guard is a remnent of that protection from a bygone era.

Well one difference between the time of the apostles and now would be that back then the Pope was not a world leader who speaks for over a billion souls in every country around the world. Back then, the Pope could walk out into the streets or along the roads of the Roman Empire without even being noticed, let alone being mobbed by thousands and pursued by media. The only time that the Pope in the days of the apostles was at real risk, was when he was preaching in the synagoges.

I say again, that I see your point, and it is sad. I’m sure very Catholic wishes these measures weren’t necessary. But then I’m sure that every American wishes that the President could also walk around freely instead of having to be protected from the nuts out there.

I am glad that you responded with patience and with knowledge to back up your stance. I give you kudos for answering my questions and enjoyed reading what you had to say. Rereading my post was in parts a bit harsh, or sharp in the tone, but you faced it with a good nature. Jesus’s spirit is truly with you.

 

[Sabda]

I could be wrong about this, but will think the following until someone proves it wrong.

My belief is that the “popemobile” is the confection of those who wish to protect the Pope, not of the Pope himself. If I had the power to do it, I would probably have made it even stronger than it is, and made visibility even more secondary. I would “screen” the crowds as well.

Who here, if charged with the responsibility, would send the Pope out into crowds of people when would-be assassins of all sorts are out there and everyone knows they are?

This is true. A rep from Mercedes-Benz first approached those closest to the Holy Father to see if he would be interested in a popemobile back in the 1930s. Ever since then Mercedes has taken it upon themselves to gift the Holy Fathers with a popemobile. The pope can make his preferences known as far as style goes but from what I can understand the finished product is ultimately the decision of those at Mercedes.

I found this to be a good article on the history of the popemobile.

 

[skatepixie]

There is a diffrence between accepting maryterdom rather than betray the faith and not taking proper care to prevent something bad happening.

There was a time when popes were so protected that they never left Rome, and the Vatican was very well protected with a fully military force.

Luckily, today we have technology that allows the pope to be visable and protected.

 

[davy39]

If the Pope were in downtown Bagdad in the popemobile, nobody would say a word. It’s almost as dangerous in D.C. as it is there (Bagdad). The popemobile and the presidents armor plated limosenes are just symbols of the times we live in. If JFK was behind bullet-proof glass, he would have been around a lot longer.

 

[catharina]

When I was watching the news media with the smiling Pope in America made you smile with him, until I saw him in the “Pope Mobile”. I got to thinking about how it looks as a symbol of Catholism all over the world is smiling inside five feet of bulletproof plexi-glass. I understand why he must do that because of assassination, but the Popes of old were they also apprehensive about dying? I can’t imagine a Pope from the 1600’s that would shy away from being with the people because there could be a threat. I see it that it would show courage to ride without such a protective vehicle and had faith that he would be alright instead of relying on technology to put his faith into. What does this display say about this man and his belief in the faith. Nothing good as I see it. :twocents:

If you think I am offbase for having this observation, then ask yourself would others in history that could have avoided dying changed their plans or would they have relied on their faith to protect them from potential or percieved harm?

What happened to the glory and heroism of Christian martyrs?

Saint Stephen, Protomartyr, was stoned c. 35 A.D.
James the Great (Son of Zebedee) was beheaded in 44 A.D.
Philip the Apostle was crucified in 54 A.D.
Matthew the Evangelist killed by a halberd in 60 A.D.
James the Just, beaten to death by a club after being crucified and stoned.
Matthias was stoned and beheaded.
Saint Andrew, St. Peter’s brother, was crucified.
Mark was beaten to death.
Saint Peter, crucified upside-down.
Apostle Paul, beheaded in Rome.
Saint Jude was crucified.
Saint Bartholomew was crucified.
Thomas the Apostle was killed by a spear.
Luke the Evangelist was hanged.
Simon the Zealot was crucified in 74 A.D

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_martyrs

It is not out of the question to ask should these brave souls (or others in the link provided) have chosen a different path that prevented them from dying? How is this time any different from the ones of the Apostles? Aren’t Catholics still being persucuted even in America in the media? Catholics don’t hide from a comparasion that Bill Maher said about “The Pope being a Nazi”, but they did compromise on his mode for transportation? I don’t understand the logic of this at all and I hope someone can rectify this for me. :knight1:

It always saddens me to read a post like yours because I have to wonder if you’ve given any moments of reflection to your notions before you decided to post them. It could be simply that you’re young and without a living memory of the assasinations and attempted assasinations that have rocked my world.

First re this question from you:

“What does this display say about this man and his belief in the faith.”
Your answer: “Nothing good as I see it.”

My answer is that we have a Pope who is HUMBLE enough to let others who are paid, trained professionals do their job. If we have a group of men and women who are assigned to provide physical security for the Holy Father, then hurray for him for not interfering with their decisions.

Second, I’m so grateful that decisions are made and put into action that protect any leaders from untimely and tragic death, especially a leader such as the Holy Father. My generation has lived through more than enough public tragedies and the generation older than mine still has living memories of WWII. I can recall the public killings of JFK, MLK, Jr., Medgar Evers, the near assasinations of Pope John Paul II, of Ronald Reagan, the attempts on the life of Jerry Ford, the brutal public murder of Anwar Sadat, the killing of Bhutto at the end of last year and frankly, I could go on and on.

The glory and history of Christian martyrs stands as publicly today as it ever did. Priests are still routinely murdered in Africa, in Iraq, in the southern hemisphere and certainly in Aaia. Not long ago, a nun from the States was martyred in the Amazon for teaching the impoverished who were routinely abused by landowners.

I thank Almighty God that the Holy Father has the wisdom and the humility to allow others to offer him protection as THEY see fit - and regardless of whether others might find him to be lacking in faith. Not everyone will die a martyr. That’s a given in our faith.

 

[Nordar]

When I was watching the news media What does this display say about this man and his belief in the faith. Nothing good as I see it. :twocents

 

[Nordar]

When I was watching the news media with the smiling Pope in America made you smile What does this display say about this man and his belief in the faith. Nothing good as I see.

 

[VietCatholic83]

Remember that the Pope went to Turkey soon after his election to The Chair and after his “offensive” comments angered a a lot of Muslims. I remember the coverage commenting that the Pope had actually declined to wear a bullet proof vest that was recommended to him and to my recollection, did not ride in the pope mobile, although he probably rode in an armored limo or something. But in many ways he went into the proverbial hornets nest and if there were a place where people would have been out to harm him, it certainly would have been in turkey. remember they were burning him in effigy and denouncing him with tremendous vigor.

 

[Randy2]

I think this visit is turning into a major disappointment.

The Pope keeps mentioning treating immigrants fairly. A protestant caller to CA today asked Groeschel if that meant illegal immigrants. He refused to even acknowledge that distinction.

Then said undoumented immigrants pay 2.1 billion in SS taxes and its a sin cause they won’t get anything from SS. So the illegals, including the major gang problem they have brought to the US, are saved and Americans are sinners!

EWTN and Groeschel are supposed to go for what is “orthodox” catholcism today. That is scary. Just listen to Madrid’s comments on Open Line 04/17 where he said basically a good Muslim can be saved, a good Buudhist can be saved, a good Hindu can be saved.

Hello??

Groeschel - is he that naive?. And why is the Pope mentionning immigration more than abortion? This is gonna provide the Dems with great fodder in the fall to attract Catholic voters.

And why is not the Pope preaching Chrits! He is preaching a rational universalist reality/truth. But hardly ever mentioning the Jesus.

The DC Mass was a mess. Many orthodox catholics are upset.

The lack of emphasis on the Gospel is wrong. many Protestants are upset - hopefullu Catholics too - over that.

Its like this is a touchy feely, feel good, I’m OK you’re OK kind of thing.

I am hugely disappointed.

This visit ain’t gonna win any converts to Catholic Christianity and I suspect it will drive many on the edge out.

 

[pnewton]

This visit ain’t gonna win any converts to Catholic Christianity and I suspect it will drive many on the edge out.

I do not understand your issues with anything the *pope *said. Do you think that we should not treat every person fairly? Your other complaints are too vague to address. Perhaps the reason he choose to address immigration is because that is an issue which many Catholics in the US choose county over charity.

 

[catharina]

I think this visit is turning into a major disappointment.

The Pope keeps mentioning treating immigrants fairly. A protestant caller to CA today asked Groeschel if that meant illegal immigrants. He refused to even acknowledge that distinction.

Then said undoumented immigrants pay 2.1 billion in SS taxes and its a sin cause they won’t get anything from SS. So the illegals, including the major gang problem they have brought to the US, are saved and Americans are sinners!

EWTN and Groeschel are supposed to go for what is “orthodox” catholcism today. That is scary. Just listen to Madrid’s comments on Open Line 04/17 where he said basically a good Muslim can be saved, a good Buudhist can be saved, a good Hindu can be saved.

Hello??

Groeschel - is he that naive?. And why is the Pope mentionning immigration more than abortion? This is gonna provide the Dems with great fodder in the fall to attract Catholic voters.

And why is not the Pope preaching Chrits! He is preaching a rational universalist reality/truth. But hardly ever mentioning the Jesus.

The DC Mass was a mess. Many orthodox catholics are upset.

The lack of emphasis on the Gospel is wrong. many Protestants are upset - hopefullu Catholics too - over that.

Its like this is a touchy feely, feel good, I’m OK you’re OK kind of thing.

I am hugely disappointed.

This visit ain’t gonna win any converts to Catholic Christianity and I suspect it will drive many on the edge out.

You speak like a fullblown pundit and yet, and yet, and yet … in your own profile you make no mention of your religion. Why is that? Do you practice any religious faith?

 

[mark_a]

The lack of emphasis on the Gospel is wrong. many Protestants are upset - hopefullu Catholics too - over that.

Did the pope not receive your agenda before he came?

If the situation is a you present it, lots of Protestants would be giddy.

 

[Crumpy]

I think this visit is turning into a major disappointment.

The Pope keeps mentioning treating immigrants fairly. A protestant caller to CA today asked Groeschel if that meant illegal immigrants. He refused to even acknowledge that distinction.

Then said undoumented immigrants pay 2.1 billion in SS taxes and its a sin cause they won’t get anything from SS. So the illegals, including the major gang problem they have brought to the US, are saved and Americans are sinners!

EWTN and Groeschel are supposed to go for what is “orthodox” catholcism today. That is scary. Just listen to Madrid’s comments on Open Line 04/17 where he said basically a good Muslim can be saved, a good Buudhist can be saved, a good Hindu can be saved.

Hello??

Groeschel - is he that naive?. And why is the Pope mentionning immigration more than abortion? This is gonna provide the Dems with great fodder in the fall to attract Catholic voters.

And why is not the Pope preaching Chrits! He is preaching a rational universalist reality/truth. But hardly ever mentioning the Jesus.

The DC Mass was a mess. Many orthodox catholics are upset.

The lack of emphasis on the Gospel is wrong. many Protestants are upset - hopefullu Catholics too - over that.

Its like this is a touchy feely, feel good, I’m OK you’re OK kind of thing.

I am hugely disappointed.

This visit ain’t gonna win any converts to Catholic Christianity and I suspect it will drive many on the edge out.

I have a lot of similar feelings, but I think Benedict’s talks are worth the banality of the surroundings. His remarks on the White House lawn, for example, “baptized” the festivities that would otherwise have been just an incongruous and awkward photo op. He said things that even Bush was not willingn to say.

I don’t care for the “color” commentary on EWTN. I think their replays should focus on the Pope, and all the banter should be on the cutting room floor.

Benedict’s successive remarks on the priest sex abuse scandal will be long remembered. Such direct involvement by the successor of Peter was certainly due, with its direct chastisement of the American episcopate.

Benedict’s calm and measured seriousness betrays an exceptional degree of preparation for this trip. He could have just emailed all those talks or put them on the Vatican website. But, his physical presence is what welds it all together into historical significance. It must have been so in the days of apostolic missions, as well.

If this is what the OP is driving at, then he/she has grasped the significance. McCain, Obama, and Clinton have to take their message on the road, too. They’d be nowhere in the race if they just relied on a satellite beaming them into an electronic box.

SOMEBODY has try to wake up the American Catholic Church to basic fundamentals.

 

[Tonks40]

I’ve been watching all the coverage and speeches being made by the Pope during this visit, and unlike some who express disappointment of what he has said so far, I feel that the Holy Father is being exactly as I imagined he would be - and more!

You forget that a couple of years ago after he became Pontiff that in regards to immigrants, he urged them to “respect the laws that govern” the host countries they enter. And I don’t think he was just talking about tourist.

Also, the Gospels are definitely being proclaimed every time he speaks. He reiterates time and again to love our neighbors, have care and concern for those in need, and have respect for your fellow man. I don’t see him as being one to constantly quote Bible verses with minimal explanations, like some of our non-Catholic brethren tend to do.

He has stuck to his guns on the Universal Church’s mission, and has placed a definite guideline as to how that mission is to be accomplished.