The Pope must die, says Muslim

[stbruno]

Maybe we should all send up a united prayer for peace in the world! Ask our Blessed Mother who has protected Popes in the past, most recently the late John Paul II at his assasination attempt to intercede on our pope’s behalf. Perhaps if we all do an hour of adoration specifically to protect the pope and for the cause of easing tensions between Muslims and Christians, our actions through the intercession of our Blessed Lady through our Lord and Savior, peace will happen.

Meeting aggression with criticism has never helped. It’s not what Jesus did and if we truly are Christian, we will turn the other cheek and pray for them.
We have all the more to gain from it!

 

[tequilamac]

We have to be careful about pointing fingers. One might wonder if Christianity was any sort of religion of peace given that, over the centuries, Christianity itself has spilled much blood, from the way some heresies were suppressed to the way Western Christians treated Eastern Christians during the Crusades to the way Jews and Moslems were treated by the Crusaders all the way up to the religious wars following the Protestant Reformation.

No, on reflection, we do not need to be careful of that. I really do not need to consider the crusades or anything. We have after all the confessional, atonement, and Mass. We believe in these things and after all the Pope was advocating peace in his statement. I do not believe anyone on either side was advocating peace, not Christian soldiers, Byzantine, Molsems or Jews during the Crusades. The comparison of the Papal statement of last week to the Crusades is simply foul. No relevance at all. And it has always been predicted in the Church that we would get to where we are now. Shows again the truth of the theology.
Having stated the spiritual angle above I have a question? Isn’t it considered a crime somewhere to publicly call for the murder of someone? If I was angry at my neighbor, could I publicly call in the New Yor Times for his death? I wonder. I think it might be a criminal act. How does this cleric get away with it? Freedom of religion or speech or something?

 

[MikeWM]

We have to be careful about pointing fingers. One might wonder if Christianity was any sort of religion of peace given that, over the centuries, Christianity itself has spilled much blood, from the way some heresies were suppressed to the way Western Christians treated Eastern Christians during the Crusades to the way Jews and Moslems were treated by the Crusaders all the way up to the religious wars following the Protestant Reformation.

…all the way through to, if we weren’t listening closely, the invasion of Iraq ‘as ordered by God to Tony Blair and George Bush’. If we were willing to automatically believe the worst of these people - just like the hoards are now doing about Muslims - and not listen to the facts, it would be easy to believe the invasion of Iraq was done in the name of Christianity. ‘We should invade their countries, kill their leaders, and convert them to Christianity’ as one rather well-known commentator said.

Mike

 

[tequilamac]

…all the way through to, if we weren’t listening closely, the invasion of Iraq ‘as ordered by God to Tony Blair and George Bush’. If we were willing to automatically believe the worst of these people - just like the hoards are now doing about Muslims - and not listen to the facts, it would be easy to believe the invasion of Iraq was done in the name of Christianity. ‘We should invade their countries, kill their leaders, and convert them to Christianity’ as one rather well-known commentator said.

Mike

What facts are the “hoardes” listening to? These are the Muslim clerics calling for the execution of the Pope- not the presidents of their nations or their parliaments. Bush and Blair as far as I know are not ordained priests and do not speak for the Catholic Church. However, the Islamic clerics very clearly do speak for Islam. It is the worst part of arrogance for a non muslim to make the claim that Muslim clerics do not understand Islam as well as the non muslim does. Really. If the Muslim clerics are calling for the execution of the Pope, we must listen to what they are saying for they iknow and understand their religion better than we do. We have no right to claim they do not know what they are talking about. We can claim that about Bush and Blair. They are not priests, bishops, cardinals or popes. They are politicians. The Muslim clerics arenot politicians per se- they do speak for Islam. Why put your head in the sand? Truth must be faced not run away from with trivializing of the threat.

 

[MikeWM]

What facts are the “hoardes” listening to? These are the Muslim clerics calling for the execution of the Pope- not the presidents of their nations or their parliaments. Bush and Blair as far as I know are not ordained priests and do not speak for the Catholic Church. However, the Islamic clerics very clearly do speak for Islam.

But we are unique in having a Pope in our branch of Christianity. The other branches don’t.

By your argument, Pat Robertson, Jerry Falwell, and Fred Phelps are speaking for Christianity and so for us.

Are you sure you want to make that argument?

It is the worst part of arrogance for a non muslim to make the claim that Muslim clerics do not understand Islam as well as the non muslim does. Really. If the Muslim clerics are calling for the execution of the Pope, we must listen to what they are saying for they iknow and understand their religion better than we do.

Oh, ok. I expect to see you at the next military funeral holding a sign saying ‘God hates America’ then (or worse). After all, one of our Christian leaders is telling us to.

The Muslim clerics arenot politicians per se- they do speak for Islam.

They speak for their version of Islam, not a totemic whole.

Why put your head in the sand? Truth must be faced not run away from with trivializing of the threat.

It shouldn’t be overplayed either.

‘Be not afraid!’ as a wise man once said. Vigilant, but not afraid.

Mike

 

[Richardols]

However, the Islamic clerics very clearly do speak for Islam.

No, they don’t, no more than a group of American bishops or Methodist bishops or a group of Baptist pastors speak for Christianity. At best those bishops and pastors speak for their conferences. And as for individual clerics or mullahs, they no more speak for Islam than my parish priest or a local minister can make statements In the Name of the Christian Church.

 

[cathgal]

We have to be careful about pointing fingers. One might wonder if Christianity was any sort of religion of peace given that, over the centuries, Christianity itself has spilled much blood, from the way some heresies were suppressed to the way Western Christians treated Eastern Christians during the Crusades to the way Jews and Moslems were treated by the Crusaders all the way up to the religious wars following the Protestant Reformation.

Let the past be the past. Why bring it up to compare w/ what’s happened in the present. Anyone can repent of their actions. Do you see Christianity did violence since _____ ? How about Islam? Further, haven’t John Paul apologized for the wrongs done? There the BIG differences.

Bringing up the past will not solve the present problems.

 

[tequilamac]

No, they don’t, no more than a group of American bishops or Methodist bishops or a group of Baptist pastors speak for Christianity. At best those bishops and pastors speak for their conferences. And as for individual clerics or mullahs, they no more speak for Islam than my parish priest or a local minister can make statements In the Name of the Christian Church.

I am sorry you feel your parish priest cannot interpret the Gospel appropriately. When he gives his homily, what is he speaking about and for? You say he is not speaking for the Church. Then why are you listening to him? What do you do- skip the Liturgy of the Word and move right into the Eucharist or what? When my priest speaks or my pope speaks he is definately representing my Church.

 

[Eden]

Maybe we should all send up a united prayer for peace in the world! Ask our Blessed Mother who has protected Popes in the past, most recently the late John Paul II at his assasination attempt to intercede on our pope’s behalf. Perhaps if we all do an hour of adoration specifically to protect the pope and for the cause of easing tensions between Muslims and Christians, our actions through the intercession of our Blessed Lady through our Lord and Savior, peace will happen.

Meeting aggression with criticism has never helped. It’s not what Jesus did and if we truly are Christian, we will turn the other cheek and pray for them.
We have all the more to gain from it!

Thank you. I will do these things.

 

[Richardols]

I am sorry you feel your parish priest cannot interpret the Gospel appropriately. When he gives his homily, what is he speaking about and for? You say he is not speaking for the Church. Then why are you listening to him? What do you do- skip the Liturgy of the Word and move right into the Eucharist or what? When my priest speaks or my pope speaks he is definately representing my Church.

“Interpreting” the Gospel, “speaking” a homily, and “representing” the Church is not speaking in the name of the Church or in the name of Christianity. Even a bishop cannot do that nor can a Bishop’s Conference. Only the Pope may speak on behalf of the entire Catholic Church, and even he may not speak on behalf of all Christianity.

 

[Richardols]

Let the past be the past. Why bring it up to compare w/ what’s happened in the present. Anyone can repent of their actions. Do you see Christianity did violence since _____ ? How about Islam? Further, haven’t John Paul apologized for the wrongs done? There the BIG differences.

Bringing up the past will not solve the present problems.

Yes, but acting as though the past did not exist isn’t a solution either.

 

[Image_of_God]

The hardest part yet is to recall the fact that Jesus died for them. I know it is hard you guys (and gals), but they are our brothers and sisters. Jesus warned of not showing God’s Fatherhood, especially those who do not know him. We need to pray for them. They were created good, just like we are. We need to fight their hateful acts, with love that comes from God. For we know in the end, love will win.

It is bad, I agree. I hate what they are doing, and I disagree with these radical’s interpretation of God. They forget that “God is love”
Since God is love, he would love those radicals to repent as we all should, instead of facing trouble.

 

[MikeWM]

I am sorry you feel your parish priest cannot interpret the Gospel appropriately. When he gives his homily, what is he speaking about and for? You say he is not speaking for the Church. Then why are you listening to him? What do you do- skip the Liturgy of the Word and move right into the Eucharist or what? When my priest speaks or my pope speaks he is definately representing my Church.

Maybe you should take a look at the ‘Liturgy and Sacraments’ forum

I notice you avoided my questions though. Do you think Fred Phelps et al. accurately represent Christianity?

Mike

 

[tequilamac]

Maybe you should take a look at the ‘Liturgy and Sacraments’ forum

I notice you avoided my questions though. Do you think Fred Phelps et al. accurately represent Christianity?

Mike

Perhaps you should study why priests only read the gospel and give homilies.
As far as fred phelps- who is he when he is at home? Never heard of him. Did he insult the muslims too?

 

[MikeWM]

Perhaps you should study why priests only read the gospel and give homilies.

Odd. The priests I know do a lot more than that.

As far as fred phelps- who is he when he is at home? Never heard of him. Did he insult the muslims too?

No (well, I dunno, it’s not what he’s famous for). He’s a very unpleasant leader of a ‘Christian’ sect.

Mike

 

[tequilamac]

Odd. The priests I know do a lot more than that.

No (well, I dunno, it’s not what he’s famous for). He’s a very unpleasant leader of a ‘Christian’ sect.

Mike

As far as I know, the Islamic clerics are not calling for the execution of Fred Phelps so I do not know why he is involved in this discussion. Perhaps you could explain what he has to do with the topic at hand.

 

[Image_of_God]

Do not let these unkindnesses shake our faith. We have a duty to love even those who hurt us. I think it is an attempt to make us unlike Jesus, and with the post that we are posting, they are winning. We should not post nasty things about other people no matter how nasty they appear to be, for Christ has died for those people. We should not take justice into our own hands, even if it is not in the form of actual violence.

I still believe that the Pope was NOT wrong in his comments, because he was simply questioning the Islamic faith. However, we need to really do our part. The Pope has done his part by speaking the truth. We need to show the world what true Christianity is like, by proving the Pope more true about the faith he defended, Christianity, but also for the sake of defending God.
Each of our uncharitable posts, regardless of the unkindness of the radicals, will be counted against us if we do not repent. For we should not think as as mere creatures, like a mudslinging compition, but rather as children of God, knowing we were raised by Christ.

So now I tell you do not judge the religion of Islam at all. Rather let God judge it, just as JPII told us(well at least in a similat fashion). We should not judge people as we have in past post. I mean, it is okay to that the radical actions of some of these people are wrong, but we are even going so far as to name call. Watch out, Satan tempt anyone and anything!

So let me recite this which I have recited before, because it tells how we are supposed to be, regardless of what happens:

1 Cor. 13:4-7
Love is patient, love is kind, love is not envious or boastful or arrogant or rude. It does not insist on its own way, it is not irritable or resentful, it does not rejoice in wrongdoing, but rejoices in the truth. It bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.

SO my question is, are we being patient with this trial in which the radicals mock us?
Are we being kind to the radicals and those who agree with them, even though, they hate us and our religion?
Are we getting irritated and resentful of what they are doing, knowing that God has told us not to?
Are we bearing this charitably, while hoping in Jesus?

Well while reading this, remember, that there if we do NOT follow this, we have no charity, and no charity, no Beatific Vision. Being in a Christian Faith is not enough, we have to be Christian and be Christian in our heart.

 

[MikeWM]

As far as I know, the Islamic clerics are not calling for the execution of Fred Phelps so I do not know why he is involved in this discussion. Perhaps you could explain what he has to do with the topic at hand.

You seem to believe that Islamic clerics speak for the whole of Islam. They do not. They speak for their interpretation of Islam, their ‘sect’ of Islam… Catholicism is somewhat unique in that we have a Pope to speak for us, but this is not true of Christianity in general. Fred Phelps would no doubt say his version of Christianity is as valid as the Pope’s (if not more so). However, Fred Phelps only speaks for Westboro Church, not Christians in general, certainly not me. Islam is no different.

Mike

 

[Adonis33]

You seem to believe that Islamic clerics speak for the whole of Islam. They do not. They speak for their interpretation of Islam, their ‘sect’ of Islam… Catholicism is somewhat unique in that we have a Pope to speak for us, but this is not true of Christianity in general. Fred Phelps would no doubt say his version of Christianity is as valid as the Pope’s (if not more so). However, Fred Phelps only speaks for Westboro Church, not Christians in general, certainly not me. Islam is no different.

Mike

I am not that concerned about what an Islamic cleric says. I am extremely concerned about what somebody who is Islamic will do. When these clerics say things, somebody will likely take him up on his advise.

When Phelps says something - there is an unlikelyhood that somebody will get shot.

 

[tequilamac]

You seem to believe that Islamic clerics speak for the whole of Islam. They do not. They speak for their interpretation of Islam, their ‘sect’ of Islam… Catholicism is somewhat unique in that we have a Pope to speak for us, but this is not true of Christianity in general. Fred Phelps would no doubt say his version of Christianity is as valid as the Pope’s (if not more so). However, Fred Phelps only speaks for Westboro Church, not Christians in general, certainly not me. Islam is no different.

Mike

Okay Mike we understand although do not agree with your statement on muslim clerics. You do know of course that for Osama bin Laden to be taken seriously by the Islamic community he had to be declared a cleric. Before he was declared a cleric, he could only be considered a politician although a popular one. He found his old mentor who was also a cleric who did whatever was necessary so that Osama could be considered a valid representative and prophet of Islam. After that Osama’s popularity grew with leaps and bounds. Before he was moderately popular. After he was officially a cleric, very popular as his cause was supported by Allah. So I would beg to differ with you that high ranking Muslim clerics such as the one who spoke in Britain today do not represent the Muslim people.
In any case, you still have not expalined what Fred Phelps has to do with it all. How is he involved? What is a Westboro Church?