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Liberalsaved
Guest
I will read it, I just won’t take everything said as gospel until I have checked sources provided for his facts and arguments. Just kind of the way I do things. I only said I wouldn’t beleive it blindly.
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MikeWM
Guest
Agree entirely. I am quite disturbed at how much virulence and anger is being poured out, under the very thin veneer of acceptability of ‘well, the Pope said something, time to get out all my hatred and prejudice’. (Interesting that that argument doesn’t seem to apply to…oh let’s see, condemnation of military actions by the USA and the UK. There it doesn’t seem to matter what the Pope says. Indeed, if you even say that the Pope was opposed to the invasion of Iraq, you can be accused of ‘sliming’ him).
I think people should be very careful, and read Nostra Aetate - the official position of our Church - before lashing out. Criticism is fair enough. Calling an entire group of people ‘evil’ and ‘inhuman’ (which the Pope has repudiated, but many people here have not) should instead bring to mind some of the darkest episodes in human history which we should not be indulging for a heart-beat.
Mike
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Damascus
Guest
Well, I’ll tell you- how do you believe in original sin then?
Sometimes we have to have faith in a source that knows more than we do.
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Dale_M
Guest
My thoughts exactly, especially for a first time poster
As am I. It was a necessary thing for the dialogue to progress beyond ‘us versus them’ rhetoric. There is a long ways to go before tensions are settled, but at least the discussion can move forward.
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Walking_Home
Guest
Include me with those who disagree with the OP. Also—I did not see any apology in what our Pope stated.
From what a few here believe—St. Peter should never have declared our Lord Jesus as God----because some people would have been offended.
From what a few here believe—St. Peter should never have declared our Lord Jesus as God----because some people would have been offended.
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Eden
Guest
Liberalsaved, your Muslim friends are giving you the sanitized, “for Western ears only” version of the “hump of Islam” (as jihad is often called). By the way, “good” Muslims don’t have non-Muslim friends (sura 5:51).
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MikeWM
Guest
I don’t think he apologised for using the quote in the first place, but he expressed regret for the fact that it had been misinterpreted as being his own belief and expressly said that he didn’t agree with the quote. He couldn’t agree with the quote, of course, because that would be completely opposite to the opinion of the Church as expressed in Nostra Aetate. He’s made that clear now - and one possible fortunate side-effect is that a lot more people will now have heard of Nostra Aetate and our official view of Islam.
I’ve not seen anyone argue that. If the absolute truth offends, than you can’t do much about that. If our Pope had said that ‘spreading religion by violence is unacceptable’ - without the unnecessarily inflammatory quote - then that may still have offended some Muslims, but it would have been the truth, and we can’t have a problem with stating the truth. My only problem is with the use of an insulting quote when it wasn’t necessary to make the point. You shouldn’t cause unnecessary offense.
Mike
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Liberalsaved
Guest
Please don’t make assumptions. I have a single Muslim friend. I know what I know about Islam through extensive historical studies. No amount of re-writing of history can change the fact that Muhammed is recorded as neither killing all his opponents and non-beleivers, nor instigating such.
Liberalsaved, your Muslim friends are giving you the sanitized, “for Western ears only” version of the “hump of Islam” (as jihad is often called). By the way, “good” Muslims don’t have non-Muslim friends (sura 5:51).
Perhaps any sort of conversion by force does not sit well with you. But that didn’t make Muhammed a mass murderer.
In addition, the passage referring to not befriending a non-Muslim is a call for conversion of that person, not a call to refuse to speak to them; much in the same way a Christian is not encouraged to let a Muslim be a Muslim.
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Liberalsaved
Guest
I don’t.
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Eden
Guest
One murder ordered by Muhammed is more than enough. Look at what you are saying! Sweet Jesus, save us.
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Eden
Guest
So, you are agreeing with others who have observed that Muslims are not upset by the suggestion that Islam was spread by the sword but by the suggestion that such tacts are “evil and human”? In other words, Muslims accept that violence is sacred when done in the name of Allah but to suggest that it is evil is where the “offense” was committed?
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Liberalsaved
Guest
Christians murdered over the Holy Land. Christians murdered Jews over conversion. Let’s also hope Jesus is saving the misguided Popes, generals and others who took part in those atrocities. The history of Christianity has it’s own share of bloodshed. And the Jews didn’t even get a fair fight, they were just rounded up and tortured. Even during my Church attendance I rolled my eyes when people tried to explain to me how somehow that wasn’t as bad.
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Liberalsaved
Guest
I didn’t say any such thing. You did. I said that historical Muhammed’s actions were done as a soldier, not murderer. I would argue the distinction, but if you’re going to call Muhammed a murderer you have to do the same with every soldier who ever fought for a cause other than national defense.
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Eden
Guest
You are equating soldiers fighting for the defense of their country to a man who called himself a prophet of God? I’m starting to think you are just trying to come up with the most outlandish responses to see how long it is before someone realizes you’re pulling our leg.
Just how many murders in the name of Allah are acceptable? You make the distinction between murder: O.K., mass murder: not O.K.
Where do we draw the numbers line? It’s holy and sacred in Allah’s eyes to kill one Catholic nun or two or three? But 1,000 is the magic cut-off number which becomes “mass murder” and displeasing to Allah?
V
Vigis
Guest
I would like to clear up the issue about the Crusades. I consider myself an expert on them having read many books about them. Pope Urban II did not call these “holy wars”. Saint Augustine clearly forbid a holy war because we as sinners have no right to do so. In less than 100 years from the beginings of Islam the Islamic World stretched from Spain to India. All of this was done by the sword. Pope Urban II called the Crusades an act of charity and mercy. It truely was that since all of these people gave up their lives in Europe and marched to defend their bretheren in the East. Yes, their were bad things that happened in the Crusades. Both sides are guilty of that. Sadly even popes over the centuries started to view a Crusade as a holy war. Such as those waged in Europe against pagans. If one was to take the real meaning of a Crusade such wars could not be considered such. The Pope did not need to apologize for his statement. Mohammed was not merciful. When his armies arrived outside Mecca the leaders of Mecca came to him and asked him to spare the city of slaughter. He replied that he would only do so if they converted to Islam. In other words “Convert or die”. By the time of the Seventh Crusade major Christian cities were falling rapidly again. The first to fall to the Moslems was massacared! 20,000 Christian CIVILLIANS were MURDERED! Next 50,000 and then some more. Do not forget the Armeanian Genocide. I have not even scratched the surface of proof that Islam is violent. I find it that anyone who views a Crusade the same thing as a jihad is a very misinformed or ignorant person. Yes, jihad translates as “struggle”, but it is a holy struggle to make the entire world Islamic. God speed.
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Liberalsaved
Guest
Actually, once again, I said the exact opposite. You are putting words in my mouth, twisting what I say to fit what you see as the opinions of anyone who dares disagree that Islam is pure evil. Until you can stop twisting my words, the conversation is over.
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Eden
Guest
Here are some examples of Muhammed, “the soldier” in “national defense” mode saving his people from a breastfeeding mother, the elderly and some poetry:
A poetess named Asmaa bint Marwan was ordered to be killed for uttering a few verses of poetry against Mohammed. A Muslim assassin, acting on Mohammed’s orders, crept at night into the women’s bed while her suckling baby was attached to her breast. The man plucked the baby from her breast and then plunged his sword into her abdomen. Later, the killer, fearing the consequences of his crime, asked Mohammed, “Will there be any danger to me on her account?” Mohammed answered, “Two goats will not butt each other about her.”
There were many other outrageous assassinations ordered by Mohammed. Abu Afak, an old man of 120 years of age was murdered for composing poetry critical of the Prophet.
Another brutal assassination was against an aged women by the name of Umm Kirfa. They tied her legs to camels which were then driven in opposite directions. The poor woman was split into two pieces.
The reality of the Muslim assassin’s brutality is punctuated by their practice of cutting off the heads of victims and bringing them to Mohammed. As the killers came into view carrying with them the evidence of Allah’s victory over the enemies of Mohammed, a jubilant Mohammed would cry, “Allaho Akbar,” (God is great)!
islamreview.com/articles/trueface.shtml
A poetess named Asmaa bint Marwan was ordered to be killed for uttering a few verses of poetry against Mohammed. A Muslim assassin, acting on Mohammed’s orders, crept at night into the women’s bed while her suckling baby was attached to her breast. The man plucked the baby from her breast and then plunged his sword into her abdomen. Later, the killer, fearing the consequences of his crime, asked Mohammed, “Will there be any danger to me on her account?” Mohammed answered, “Two goats will not butt each other about her.”
There were many other outrageous assassinations ordered by Mohammed. Abu Afak, an old man of 120 years of age was murdered for composing poetry critical of the Prophet.
Another brutal assassination was against an aged women by the name of Umm Kirfa. They tied her legs to camels which were then driven in opposite directions. The poor woman was split into two pieces.
The reality of the Muslim assassin’s brutality is punctuated by their practice of cutting off the heads of victims and bringing them to Mohammed. As the killers came into view carrying with them the evidence of Allah’s victory over the enemies of Mohammed, a jubilant Mohammed would cry, “Allaho Akbar,” (God is great)!
islamreview.com/articles/trueface.shtml
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Eden
Guest
Then you must do whatever you need to do, including ending the conversation, when you can not defend the indefensible.
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Eden
Guest
Just commenting on your accusation that I have twisted your words. Since you have accused me of manipulating what you said, I will then allow you to speak again in your own words:
Nothing needs to be “twisted” here. Your words are simply shocking.
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Walking_Home
Guest
I do not believe the wording would have made any difference to them. Now ----from what is seen in reaction to our Pope—we can see what their official view of us is.
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