The Pope?

[ml1957]

I am reading this,and I am serious about this discussion.

Please do not call me a Protestant. I am not sure what a Protestant is or if I am spelling it correctly. I am a Christian. A follower of Christ.

Actually I am teaching a Bible Class this evening to a group of 11th and 12th graders. I am gathering all of this info coming from you,and using it for our class.

 

[Rand_Al_Thor]

“Protestant” comes from the word “protest” and it refers to all christian denominations other than the catholic church (the eastern orthodox church excluded). protestants are the ones who broke the line of apostolic succession.

edit: the reason it comes from “protest” is because the ones who started the protestant churches (martin luther–lutheran church–was the first) protested against some things about the catholic faith. no one’s saying you’re not a christian; protestant simply refers to christians who are not catholic.

 

[Lisa4Catholics]

ml1957:

Yes Christ is the head of the Church ( my bad ). Please be patient with me. This is serious stuff. Christ Jesus came to earth as a man and died for the Church. The Gospels are the inspired word of God.
God left us with this inspired word.
We are not to follow any man on earth. We are not told to follow a man on earth. The Pope is a man I see on TV.

According to Jesus we are supposed to be obediant to authority.And accoerding to what you just said everyone who listened to the apostles are in a heap of trouble

 

[ml1957]

Mike Lee is my name. Not Martin Luther. Please keep this discussion where it should be, not calling names. I assume not everyone is in step with the person that made the Martin Luther jab?

 

[Lisa4Catholics]

ml1957:

I am reading this,and I am serious about this discussion.

Please do not call me a Protestant. I am not sure what a Protestant is or if I am spelling it correctly. I am a Christian. A follower of Christ.

Actually I am teaching a Bible Class this evening to a group of 11th and 12th graders. I am gathering all of this info coming from you,and using it for our class.

Catholics are the first Christians you may want to study Church history before you teach a Bible class.I can not believe you do not know what protestant is You are pulling our legs aren’t you?

 

[Lisa4Catholics]

ml1957:

Mike Lee is my name. Not Martin Luther. Please keep this discussion where it should be, not calling names. I assume not everyone is in step with the person that made the Martin Luther jab?

Mike have you looked through the main site yet?

 

[Genesis315]

ml1957:

Please do not call me a Protestant. I am not sure what a Protestant is or if I am spelling it correctly. I am a Christian. A follower of Christ.

You’re kidding right? You’ve never heard the word Protestant? Well, here’s what it mean: the Catholic Church was made up of all Christians from the time of the apostles until 1054 when the Orthodox went into schism. In 1517, Luther and then Calvin and Zwingli all started protesting. They created their own doctrines. One of which was Sola Scriptura (Bible alone). Since the only authority was a book, people were interpreting it all different ways. From there thousands of new Protestant denominations splintered off as disagreements in interpretation multiplied. Then very recently, some people started creating non-denominational churches which are just Protestant churches without any organization at all. Most people who say they are just Christians with no denomination tend to have very Protestant theology and that’s why we called you a Protestant. Plus, you seem to be protesting about the pope . Hope that helps.

 

[Ignatius]

ml1957:

Where do I begin? How can anyone who reads the Bible (Gods inspired word) come up with the Pope? Does the New Testament sound familiar?

Show me the work “Bible” in the Bible. How about Trinity? Do you believe in the Trinity? These are all modern words for ancient concepts. The languages change over time.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

Actually I am teaching a Bible Class this evening to a group of 11th and 12th graders. I am gathering all of this info coming from you,and using it for our class.

Really? Gee, thanks for telling us in advance, and inviting scholars to answer your questions on the Papacy.

I’d love to see how you will “use” this info.

Don’t you have lesson plans for your students? You know, actual plans that incorporate knowledge of your faith from reputable scholars, which (hopefully) present a balanced view of other religions, which clearly label your positions and the reasons you hold them?

I must admit, I thought I’d seen everything. Imagine, now we have a “teacher” teaching 11th and 12th graders–16, 17 and 18 year olds–the “faith” of a religion based on what he will “cut and paste” from a message board.

Since you found these forums, I assume you can find the Catholic Answers Library right on this site. You know what-**-there is a tract right there in the library **about the Papacy.

Why don’t you use it to teach your class?

Remember: “The truth will set you free”.

 

[gardenswithkids]

ml1957:

God left us with this inspired word.

Jesus left us with a Church. The Church gave us the Bible.

Jesus did not give Peter a book; Jesus gave him the keys to the Kingdom.

Jesus didn’t say to Peter, “Write this down.” He said, “Feed my flock.”

And you may want to be careful when you reject the Pope because Jesus also said, “Whoever listens to you listens to me. Whoever rejects you rejects me. And whoever rejects me rejects to one who sent me.” Luke 10:16

 

[Irenicist]

ml1957:

Yes Christ is the head of the Church ( my bad ). Please be patient with me. This is serious stuff. Christ Jesus came to earth as a man and died for the Church. The Gospels are the inspired word of God.
God left us with this inspired word.
We are not to follow any man on earth. We are not told to follow a man on earth. The Pope is a man I see on TV.

So by this reasoning, the early Christians shouldn’t have followed the Apostles, Paul or any of the people they are described (in the Bible) as ordaining?

Now what exactly were the early Christians to follow between Pentacost and when the New Testament was collated? Who was to transmit God’s inspired word to us until they were written down? And who exactly decided on the canon of the New Testament? Were these not “men”?

The answers to these questions do not, in and of themselves, prove the validity of the papacy, but they do show up your current arguments as merely empty slogans. If you want to challenge the Catholic understanding of the papacy, you can do a much better job than that by first researching the issue and trying to see both sides of the picture.

Once you are ready to get beyond the sloganeering, we can hold a more civilized discussion.

Irenicist

 

[mercygate]

ml1957:

Yes Christ is the head of the Church ( my bad ). Please be patient with me. This is serious stuff. Christ Jesus came to earth as a man and died for the Church. The Gospels are the inspired word of God.
God left us with this inspired word.
We are not to follow any man on earth. We are not told to follow a man on earth. The Pope is a man I see on TV.

Holy COW! If the Pope were nothing but “a man I see on TV” then you would be 100 percent absolutely correct that following him *instead *of following Christ would be a HUGE mistake. It would be like saying you “follow” Charles Stanley (actually – you could do worse: Stanley preaches Christ and if you were not a Christian, you could draw closer to Jesus by listening to Stanley). But we do not simply follow the Pope as a man; we understand him to be the earthly father to Christ’s Church on earth, entrusted by Christ himself with “feeding His sheep.” Catholics believe that just as Christ had a physical body when he walked the earth, the Church has a physical body today, centered in the Catholic Church, which can trace its history and charism back to Christ himself.

If you are giving a class about what Catholics understand the papacy to be, then please look at Isaiah 22:20-23 where the key of the house of David is taken from Shebnah and given to the Eliakim, the steward of God’s own choosing:

In that day I will call my servant Eliakim the son of Hilkiah, and I will clothe him with your robe, and will bind your girdle on him, and will commit your authority to his hand; and he shall be a father to the inhabitants of Jerusalem and to the house of Judah.
And I will place on his shoulder the key of the house of David; he shall open, and none shall shut; and he shall shut, and none shall open.

The point is that the steward is a person of real authority which comes from the Lord. This passage has been seen as a prophecy of Jesus’ giving the Keys of the Kingdom to Peter since the very early Church.

 

[ml1957]

I am not rejecting Jesus. Is rejecting the pope the same as rejecting Christ?

Please do not confuse the two of them. I am a follower of Christ,a Christian.

 

[Ignatius]

ml1957:

I am reading this,and I am serious about this discussion.

Please do not call me a Protestant. I am not sure what a Protestant is or if I am spelling it correctly. I am a Christian. A follower of Christ.
.

You are a protestant. There are three major groups of christians. Catholic (the Church which Jesus Christ founded). Orthodox, who have full, valid Apostolic Succession and Sacraments. And protestants, those who follow after the reformation in the 16th century.

Here’s some more info:
Do you have any idea when your faith was founded and by whom? You may find this enlightening:

If you are a member of the Jewish faith, your religion was founded by Abraham about 4,000 years ago.

If you are Roman Catholic, Jesus Christ founded your Church in the year A.D. 30.

If you are Islamic, Mohammed started your religion in what is now Saudi Arabia around A.D. 600.

If you are Eastern Orthodox, your sect separated from Roman Catholicism around the year 1054.

If you are Lutheran, your religion was founded by Martin Luther, an ex-monk in the Catholic Church, in 1517.

If you belong to the Church of England (Anglican), your religion was founded by King Henry VIII in the year 1534 because the pope would not grant him a divorce with the right to remarry.

If you are a Presbyterian, your religion was founded when John Knox brought the teachings of John Calvin to Scotland in the Year 1560.

If you are Unitarian, your group developed in Europe in the 1500s.

If you are a Congregationalist, your religion branched off Puritanism in the early 1600s in England.

If you are a Baptist, you owe the tenets of your religion to John Smyth, who launched it in Amsterdam in 1607.

If you are a Methodist, your religion was founded by John and Charles Wesley in England in 1744.

If you are an Episcopalian, your religion came from England to the American colonies. It formed a separate religion founded by Samuel Seabury in 1789.

If you are a Mormon (Latter-day Saints), Joseph Smith started your church in Palmyra, N.Y. in 1830.

If you worship with the Salvation Army, your sect began with William Booth in London in 1865.

If you are a Christian Scientist, you look to 1879 as the year your religion was founded by Mary Baker Eddy.

If you are a Jehovah’s Witness, your religion was founded by Charles Taze Russell in Pennsylvania in the 1870s.

If you are Pentecostal, your religion was started in the United States in 1901.

May the love of God, the peace of Jesus Christ and the Fellowship ofthe Holy Spirit lead you to the Pillar and Foundation of Truth!

God Bless

 

[Ignatius]

ml1957:

I am not rejecting Jesus. Is rejecting the pope the same as rejecting Christ?

Please do not confuse the two of them. I am a follower of Christ,a Christian.

Jesus sent the Apostles (including Peter). Jesus said “whosoever rejecteth you rejecteth me”. So, yes, if you reject the direct successor to the Apostle Peter, you are rejecting Christ.

 

[Genesis315]

ml1957:

I am not rejecting Jesus. Is rejecting the pope the same as rejecting Christ?

Please do not confuse the two of them. I am a follower of Christ,a Christian.

Well, I’m sure you’re doing your best to follow God’s graces (maybe that’s what led you here:thumbsup: )

As was mentioned earlier, who do you think He was talking about rejecting here. Jesus didn’t say, whoever reads this Scripture listens to me and whoever rejects this book rejects me. He was talking to his apostles, who would be living teachers:

“Whoever listens to you listens to me. Whoever rejects you rejects me. And whoever rejects me rejects to one who sent me.” Luke 10:16

 

[STIOFAN]

John 21:15:15
14 This is now the third time that Jesus was manifested to his disciples, after he was risen from the dead.
15 ¶ When therefore they had dined, Jesus saith to Simon Peter: Simon, son of John, lovest thou me more than these? He saith to him: Yea, Lord, thou knowest that I love thee. He saith to him: Feed my lambs.
16 He saith to him again: Simon, son of John, lovest thou me? He saith to him: yea, Lord, thou knowest that I love thee. He saith to him: Feed my lambs.​

Feed my Lambs from John 21:15:15 seems pretty clear to me, or ml1957 maybe you can explain what Jesus is saying here.
Why would Jesus ask Peter to feed His Lambs ?
Like it or not you are rejecting the authority of Jesus up above, who gave authority to Peter to feed His lambs, (us you and me).

 

[Tantum_ergo]

Heck, ML, I’m a Christian. All of us Catholics are Christians. In fact, we were (and are) the FIRST Christians. Ignatius referred to this around 100 A.D. when he said, “Where Christ is, there is the catholic church.”

All us nice Christian Catholics follow Christ. Unlike some others who are more “Christian AND–” like “I follow Christ AND the Bible alone”, or “I follow Christ AND through faith alone” etc., we follow Christ the way He wanted us to, under the church He Himself established. We gratefully acknowledge that He was kind enough to appoint a representative on earth (the Pope) and establish, through succession from the apostles, wonderful bishops (cardinals) and priests and deacons. We don’t confuse a man (the Pope) with God.

The Pope himself is “the servant of the servants of God”.

God bless Pope Benedict XVI.
God rest Pope John Paul II.

 

[bkniceley]

gardenswithkids:

And you may want to be careful when you reject the Pope because Jesus also said, “Whoever listens to you listens to me. Whoever rejects you rejects me. And whoever rejects me rejects to one who sent me.” Luke 10:16

I seriously hope you do not believe that. Jesus said this but not to just peter or his “successors” but to ALL Christians. Christ lives in every one of us and for us to reject anothe christian would be rejecting christ and going to war with god since christ is in that believer. A lot of things that Jesus said to the disciples were meant for every christian.

As far as ml1957 being a protestant… he doesnt have to be one… there are 3 major groups of christianity yes but he does not have to be part of one. Religion does not matter in the end… it is if u have a relationship with christ or not. Therefore he does not have to be grouped to one specific denomination. He could just be a follower of christ and so could others.

 

[gardenswithkids]

ml1957, I don’t think you intend to reject Jesus, but you are rejecting the earthly authority He left with Peter that has been handed down to the Pope. The position of authority that He left to Peter wasn’t just a tempory thing; He established a position of authority within the Church He established. Just as the apostles in Acts 1:15-26 replaced Judas, the words of scripture still hold true “May another take his office.” Acts 1:20

Here is some more scripture that may help you to understand why Catholic look to a Pope and teaching Magesterium to help us understand scripture:

*Know this first of all, that there is no prophecy of scripture that is a matter of personal interpretation, for no prophecy ever came through human will; but rather human beings moved by the holy Spirit spoke under the influence of God.*2 Peter: 20-21

*…as our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given to him, also wrote to you, speaking of these things as he does in all his letter. In them there are some things hard to understand that the ignorant and unstable distort to their own destruction, just as they do other scriptures. *Peter 13:15-16

I have much more to tell you, but you cannot bear it now. But when he comes, the Spirit of truth, he will guide you to all truth… John 16:12-13

I pray that you are here because you sincerely want to understand and teach the Bible properly, and I pray the the Holy Spirit guides you to all truth.