The Pope?

[mercygate]

Say ml – come back tomorrow and let us know what kinds of questions the kids asked. I love working with this age group!

 

[itsjustdave1988]

ml1957,

There is only one Father,and he is the head of the Church.

The Son is the head of the Church.

We have no papa on earth. We do not need a papa on earth.

What a bizarre assertion. I don’t know about you, but I do have a father, at least that’s what my mom tells me.

Also, Scripture speaks of many fathers on earth.

There’s Joseph, who was father to pharoah (Gen. 45:8 “he has made me a father to Pharaoh”).

There’s Job, who was father to the poor (Job 29:16 “I was a father to the poor”).

There’s Eliakim, who was father to all Jerusalem, signified by the “keys of the kingdom” as chief steward. (Is. 22:20–21 “… and will commit . . . authority to his hand; and he shall be a father to the inhabitants of Jerusalem and to the house of Judah”).

And if you studied Scripture, you would know that Peter was given the keys of the kingdom by Jesus, making him “father” of the household of the Lord, the chief steward of Christ, the first ‘papa’ (father, pope) of Christianity.

Non-Catholic Bible scholar F.F. Bruce describes Peter’s place as chief steward of Christ in this manner…

Evangelical scholar, F.F. Bruce:

“And what about the ‘keys of the kingdom’ ? The keys of a royal or noble establishment were entrusted to the chief steward or majordomo; he carried them on his shoulder in earlier times, and there they served as a badge of the authority entrusted to him. About 700 B.C. an oracle from God announced that this authority in the royal palace in Jerusalem was to be conferred on a man called Eliakim …(Isaiah 22:22). So in the new community which Jesus was about to build, Peter would be, so to speak, chief steward.” (Bruce, The Hard Sayings of Jesus [Intervarsity, 1983], 143-144, as cited in Butler/Dahlgren/Hess, page 41)

And the Protestant New Bible Commentary states:

Eliakim stands in strong contrast to Shebna, over whom he seems to have been promoted when they reappear in 36:3…Godward he is called my servant (20)…manward he will be a father to his community (21)…The key…of David (22) comes in this context of accountability. A key was a substantial object, tucked in the girdle or slung over the shoulder; but the opening words of v. 22…emphasize the God-given responsibility that went with it, to be used in the king’s interests. The ‘shutting’ and ‘opening’ means the power to make decisions which no one under the king could override. This is the background of the commission to Peter (cf. Mt 16:19) and to the church (cf. Mt 18:18)… Ultimate authority, however, is claimed, in these terms, for Christ himself (cf. Rev 3:7-8)." (NBC [Intervarsity, 1994], page 647)

Commentary from the Protestant Anchor Bible likewise states:

Isaiah 22:15ff undoubtedly lies behind this saying. The keys are the symbol of authority, and Roland de Vaux [Ancient Israel, tr. by John McHugh, NY: McGraw-Hill, 1961] rightly sees here the same authority as that vested in the vizier, the master of the house, the chamberlain, of the royal household in ancient Israel. Eliakim is described as having the same authority in Isaiah; it was Hilkiah’s position until he was ousted, and Jotham as regent is also described as ‘over the household’ [2 Kings 15:5]…It is of considerable importance that in other contexts, when the disciplinary affairs of the community are being discussed [cf. Matt 18:18; John 20:23] the symbol of the keys is absent, since the sayings apply in those instances to a wider circle…The role of Peter as steward of the Kingdom is further explained as being the exercise of administrative authority, as was the case of the OT chamberlain who held the ‘keys.’ The clauses ‘on earth,’ ‘in heaven’, have reference to the permanent character of the steward’s work." (Albright/Mann, The Anchor Bible: Matthew, page 196-197)

So you see, whether you see it in Scripture or not has nothing to do with the veracity of the doctrine. Many see the truth of Scripture and Tradition, despite the murky understanding of others.

 

[tkdnick]

bkniceley:

I seriously hope you do not believe that. Jesus said this but not to just peter or his “successors” but to ALL Christians. Christ lives in every one of us and for us to reject anothe christian would be rejecting christ and going to war with god since christ is in that believer. A lot of things that Jesus said to the disciples were meant for every christian.

As far as ml1957 being a protestant… he doesnt have to be one… there are 3 major groups of christianity yes but he does not have to be part of one. Religion does not matter in the end… it is if u have a relationship with christ or not. Therefore he does not have to be grouped to one specific denomination. He could just be a follower of christ and so could others.

Could you give some Scripture to back up these statements?

 

[Genesis315]

bkniceley:

Religion does not matter in the end… it is if u have a relationship with christ or not.

First off, I’m sure you mean you need to have a good relationship with Christ. But what does that mean exaclty? I say it means you have faith in Him and obey Him. The only place where you can truly do both is the Catholic Church.

 

[Ignatius]

bkniceley:

Religion does not matter in the end… .

Religion: the service and worship of God.

I seriously hope you do not mean that. The reason that we are here is for the service and worship of God(i.e. True Religion). Nothing else matters but this.

May the love of God the Father, the peace of Jesus Christ His Son, and the Fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you. May the Holy Spirit guide you to the Pillar and Foundation of Truth.

 

[mrS4ntA]

ml1957:

Where do I begin? How can anyone who reads the Bible (Gods inspired word) come up with the Pope? Does the New Testament sound familiar?

one factor HAVE to be considered in responding th this: the Church does not comes from the Bible, it’s the other way around. People don’t ready the Bible, then decide, “yup! let’s build the papacy”. The papacy exists before the Bible was canonised and assembled.

at any rate, some of your objections have been disproved and responded to the way you wanted it – scripturally, and you didn’t even address them.

 

[STIOFAN]

bkniceley:

I seriously hope you do not believe that. Jesus said this but not to just peter or his “successors” but to ALL Christians.

Hello !!!--------------- there wer’e no ALL Christians when Jesus made this statement, Jesus was only establishing His Church at that time.
So how can we say that Jesus was saying All Christians ?
There wer’e no Christians, apart from the Apostles and their followers.

 

[bkniceley]

STIOFÁN:

So how can we say that Jesus was saying All Christians ?
There wer’e no Christians, apart from the Apostles and their followers.

umm im not talking about just the christians at that specific time… im talking about all christians from then til now.

Genesis315:

I say it means you have faith in Him and obey Him. The only place where you can truly do both is the Catholic Church.

How is that? You can only truly have faith in god and obey him if you are a part of a specific church? It is our relationship to Christ that makes us brothers and sisters in Christ and not some organization. Being a member of some denomination does not make us children of God. We are born spiritually into a relationship with Christ, and this relationship is not maintained by the unity of the denomination of which we are a part of. It is kept by us who believe the same truths of the bible. Therefore no organizational church… not the evangelical churches, not the baptist churches, not the methodist churches, and not even the catholic church can justify us. People are not looking for the religious beliefs that we have. They are looking for one good reason to give their life to christ and be saved.

 

[Genesis315]

bkniceley:

How is that? You can only truly have faith in god and obey him if you are a part of a specific church? It is our relationship to Christ that makes us brothers and sisters in Christ and not some organization. Being a member of some denomination does not make us children of God. We are born spiritually into a relationship with Christ, and this relationship is not maintained by the unity of the denomination of which we are a part of. It is kept by us who believe the same truths of the bible. Therefore no organizational church… not the evangelical churches, not the baptist churches, not the methodist churches, and not even the catholic church can justify us. People are not looking for the religious beliefs that we have. They are looking for one good reason to give their life to christ and be saved.

Christ founded a Church. It’s in the Bible. St. Paul called it the pillar and foundation of Truth. Check it out. There’s bishops and everything. Where’s your bishop? It’s in the Bible, why don’t you have one?

Christ didn’t write a book, pass out copies, and say go figure it out. You, like the Ethiopian in Acts 8, need a teacher. The successors of Peter and the Apostles are our teachers. Who are yours?

This “no Church” stuff is a doctrine invented by man in the last century.

 

[RuffinIt]

Mercygate, thank you for the wonderful reply and the quotes to support the pope. I am a cradle Catholic, but you explained it so well. I have learned so much from this thread, and I thank everyone for sharing. I am finding out answers to questions that I did not even know I had!

 

[Lorarose]

Here’s some good scripture material for the kids…

scripturecatholic.com

Here’s some good material for Church history…

newadvent.com/fathers

You DO know - don’t you? That the Church continued with the apostles? And passed onto their successors? And then their successors? And so on…all the way to the present?

 

[Malachi4U]

ml1957:

Where do I begin? How can anyone who reads the Bible (Gods inspired word) come up with the Pope? Does the New Testament sound familiar?

Easy, let the Holy Spirit take the ‘scales’ off your eyes and ‘see’ Sacred Scripture, Gods word. Don’t just read it and memorize it. Live it.

The real question? How can you not ‘see’ it?

 

[CARose]

ML1957,

I hope you’re getting answers to your question that help. Please excuse the agitation shown by some of the posters here. Take a second, look at your post from our perspective and you might understand why it set a few folks off.

And you guys who’ve been here for a while, where’s your charity to our seperated brother? :tsktsk:

You know it’s our responsibility to respond with Charity. I’ve seen more than a few responses that don’t speak so well to that! How can we hope to help them (ML and bknicely) understand where we’re coming from if we put them on the defensive.

Oh, and BK, now I understand where you were coming from on the other thread where I warned you about the error of relativism. I hadn’t read your profile to see that you’re a Protestant. Now it makes more sense.

Yes, there are definitive truths with regards to God. The Catholic Church is the Church which was founded by Christ and the Gates of Hell have not prevailed against it for 2000 years. This is not to suggest that everyone who is Catholic attains salvation. No, in this you are correct, no one denomination has a lock on heaven. But what did Christ say would be the Pillar and Foundation (or Bulwarks) of the Truth? If you answered :bible1: the Bible, you may want to look it up for yourself in 1 Tim 3:15. You’ll see that it is the Church as another poster here has stated.

A book cannot reach out and correct you when you misinterpret it. The Holy Spirit does this infallibly for the Pope by preventing him from teaching error in matters of Faith and Morals. Can any of us claim assurance of the same. If so, we’re suggesting that there isn’t one Pope but hundreds, thousands, millions of Popes. We see that this isn’t the case, for if only the guidance of the Holy Spirit was necessary, the Eunich wouldn’t have needed a teacher (as mentioned by another above).

The Pope is the Pastor of Pastors (we refer to him as the Servant of the Servants of God). He is also referred to as the Vicar of Christ. Jesus is the Head Priest of the Church on Earth. He is the head of the Body of Christ. The Pope is the visible head of the Church, serving as the Prime Minister so to speak, until He comes again in glory.

Hope this helps,

CARose

 

[mercygate]

RuffinIt:

Mercygate, thank you for the wonderful reply and the quotes to support the pope. I am a cradle Catholic, but you explained it so well. I have learned so much from this thread, and I thank everyone for sharing. I am finding out answers to questions that I did not even know I had!

Thanks, Ruffinlt! Though the post you refer to was a small effort, one sometimes has the feeling that these posts are sent into cyberspace and nobody is listening (especially the person who asked the question!).

 

[mercygate]

bkniceley:

How is that? You can only truly have faith in god and obey him if you are a part of a specific church? It is our relationship to Christ that makes us brothers and sisters in Christ and not some organization. Being a member of some denomination does not make us children of God.

bk, the Catholic Church is not a denomination. Nor is it primarily an organization, although since Christ gave us bishops, he seemed to think that we needed some kind of structure. The Church is God’s family. For Catholics, a principal part of the “relationship to Christ that makes us brothers and sisters” is the Eucharist. Just “me and Jesus” is not a Christian life.

As a “specific church” the Catholic Church retains the whole counsel of God in its fullness. Once you connect the dots and realize that the Catholic Church traces its history and Charism all the way back to Christ himself, then to remain outside her is definitely to reject truth, and thus, to reject Christ himself.

We are born spiritually into a relationship with Christ, and this relationship is not maintained by the unity of the denomination of which we are a part of. It is kept by us who believe the same truths of the bible.

Which same truths do you have in mind? You seem to be quite willing to do without some pretty basic truths of the Bible if you dismiss Apostolic succession, the real presence of Christ in the Eucharist, the ability of Priests to forgive sins . . . .

Therefore no organizational church… not the evangelical churches, not the baptist churches, not the methodist churches, and not even the catholic church can justify us.

None of these denominations, nor the Catholic Church, believes that the “organization” is what saves people.

People are not looking for the religious beliefs that we have. They are looking for one good reason to give their life to christ and be saved.

No Catholic would disagree with this. However, in a world where politics and philosophies vie for men’s hearts, where faith is assaulted at every turn, “religious beliefs” become a necessary concomitant of faith.

 

[gardenswithkids]

CARose:

And you guys who’ve been here for a while, where’s your charity to our seperated brother? :tsktsk:

You know it’s our responsibility to respond with Charity. I’ve seen more than a few responses that don’t speak so well to that! How can we hope to help them (ML and bknicely) understand where we’re coming from if we put them on the defensive.

You are right CARose, I should have showed more charity. I apologize.

I don’t normally pull out Luke 10:16 to quote to Protestants because I know that they are not trying to reject Christ by rejecting Church authority. But I let his assertations that the Pope was just a “guy on tv” and that we “don’t read scripture” and that we don’t “need a papa” get to me. I should probably never respond to a thread when it evokes that kind of emotion in me.

I agree mercygate does a great job of responding and finding links. I hope the protestants who read this will please ignore the hostility from both sides and study the scripture and explainations offered both here and in the links, then prayerfully contemplate them. I pray that my lack of charity doesn’t get in the way of anyone coming to know truth. I’m sorry for offending any of my brothers of sisters in Christ.

 

[ml1957]

I was able to print 45 posts and discuss them with my high school bible class last night.

The first thing we agreed upon is that hostile or rude comments from loarrose and a few others should be ignored.
We searched a lot of scripture,and came to a few conclusions.
We began by searching for a Pope. We never found one.

We let the words of Jesus guide us unto salvation. Everything we need to know is written for us in the New Testament. You see after Christ died,he left us with the inspired words of God to accept him,or reject him.
We do not read of a Pope. We still can’t find him. Come to think of it,we can’t find the word Catholic in the Bible.

By adding to the word of God you are not pleasing to him. There is no place for a Pope on earth. The Pope is a man. A man on TV.

Also we learned that you become a Christian after you hear,beleive,repent,confess and are baptized. You are added to the Church. How can an infant hear and beleive?

 

[shannin]

ml1957:

Where do I begin? How can anyone who reads the Bible (Gods inspired word) come up with the Pope? Does the New Testament sound familiar?

And where do you think the New Testament came from?

 

[Genesis315]

gardenswithkids:

I don’t normally pull out Luke 10:16 to quote to Protestants because I know that they are not trying to reject Christ by rejecting Church authority. But I let his assertations that the Pope was just a “guy on tv” and that we “don’t read scripture” and that we don’t “need a papa” get to me. I should probably never respond to a thread when it evokes that kind of emotion in me.

Well, they are just ignorant that rejecting the successors to the Apostles is rejecting Jesus, so in God’s mercy they are excused.

 

[dbrown]

ml1957:

I am not rejecting Jesus. Is rejecting the pope the same as rejecting Christ?

Please do not confuse the two of them. I am a follower of Christ,a Christian.

This one is tooooo good. If this guy would read scripture he would understand that if you reject the OFFICE of the Pope you would be REJECTING Christ. Peace Be With You.