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mercygate
Guest
Let’s take it to another thread and keep this one on the Pope.
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dbrown
Guest
I would tend to disagree with you on that as well as probably everyone else on this board thats Catholic. I do love you, but I also Love the Church and you do not respect our faith that is why I am on the attack… I believe there are plenty of people here that understand what I’m saying. You posted here openly and I have the right to defend our Church against you heretical accusations…
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mercygate
Guest
Ya gotta have seen this one comin’, ml – And he made one of those fishermen the chief of the Apostles – i.e., the Pope!
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dbrown
Guest
BRAVO!!!
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rayne89
Guest
***The Bible Centenary and the Catholic Church ***
Amid the general jubilation over the three hundredth anniversary of the appearance of King James’s version of the Bible, I think it would be a pity if we did not make mention of that great Church to which, under God, we owe our possession of the sacred Scriptures—I mean of course, the Roman Catholic Church. Without striking one single jarring note, I hope, in the universal chorus, yet I feel it would be rather ungenerous, and indeed historically unjust, did we not turn our eyes at least in passing to that venerable figure standing in the background surveying our celebrations, and, as it were, saying, “Rejoice over it, but remember it was from me you got it.” As a Scotsman, who cannot forget that it is the Bible that has made Scotland largely what she is today, I yield to no one in veneration of the inspired Scriptures and in admiration of the incomparably beautiful Authorized Version. Still, honor to whom honor. We shall only be awarding a just meed of praise and gratitude if we frankly and thankfully recognize that it is to a council (or councils) of the R.C. Church that we owe the collection of the separate books into our present Canon of the New Testament, and that to the loving care and devoted labor of the monks and scholars of that Church all through the ages we are indebted, not only for the multiplication and distribution of the sacred volume among the faithful when as yet no printing press existed, but even for the preservation of the Book from corruption and destruction. It is, then, undoubtedly true to say that, in the present order of Providence, it is owing to the Roman Catholic Church that we have a Bible at all. And no one will be a bit the worse Christian and Bible-lover if he remembers, this notable year, that it is to the Mother Church of Christendom he must look if he would behold the real preserver, defender, and transmitter of the “Word that endureth for ever.”
- HENRY GREY GRAHAM
Amid the general jubilation over the three hundredth anniversary of the appearance of King James’s version of the Bible, I think it would be a pity if we did not make mention of that great Church to which, under God, we owe our possession of the sacred Scriptures—I mean of course, the Roman Catholic Church. Without striking one single jarring note, I hope, in the universal chorus, yet I feel it would be rather ungenerous, and indeed historically unjust, did we not turn our eyes at least in passing to that venerable figure standing in the background surveying our celebrations, and, as it were, saying, “Rejoice over it, but remember it was from me you got it.” As a Scotsman, who cannot forget that it is the Bible that has made Scotland largely what she is today, I yield to no one in veneration of the inspired Scriptures and in admiration of the incomparably beautiful Authorized Version. Still, honor to whom honor. We shall only be awarding a just meed of praise and gratitude if we frankly and thankfully recognize that it is to a council (or councils) of the R.C. Church that we owe the collection of the separate books into our present Canon of the New Testament, and that to the loving care and devoted labor of the monks and scholars of that Church all through the ages we are indebted, not only for the multiplication and distribution of the sacred volume among the faithful when as yet no printing press existed, but even for the preservation of the Book from corruption and destruction. It is, then, undoubtedly true to say that, in the present order of Providence, it is owing to the Roman Catholic Church that we have a Bible at all. And no one will be a bit the worse Christian and Bible-lover if he remembers, this notable year, that it is to the Mother Church of Christendom he must look if he would behold the real preserver, defender, and transmitter of the “Word that endureth for ever.”
- HENRY GREY GRAHAM
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ml1957
Guest
I am not attacking anyones faith. I feel a responsibility to listen to the lost,and make an attempt to show you the truth.
All of the pub that the Pope has recieved,and the new “pope” ,taking his place is exposing people to thinking about God.
I only pray that they see the Pope for what his is,and not accept his traditions and his holiness.
If you are reading this post as a non catholic,please look ,read and study the New Testament. Learn of the first century church,and let them be your example. Be a Christian,a follower of Christ. the Pope and all his magesty is very upsetting to God.
All of the pub that the Pope has recieved,and the new “pope” ,taking his place is exposing people to thinking about God.
I only pray that they see the Pope for what his is,and not accept his traditions and his holiness.
If you are reading this post as a non catholic,please look ,read and study the New Testament. Learn of the first century church,and let them be your example. Be a Christian,a follower of Christ. the Pope and all his magesty is very upsetting to God.
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mercygate
Guest
Not accept his holiness? Should holiness ever be rejected in a brother? Get a grip, man!
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rayne89
Guest
By what authority do you make this statement?
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midwest_mom
Guest
ml1957
I have yet to see where you have quoted scripture. I have seen you repeat your version of scripture. I am a convert to Catholism. I have heard your arguement for many years. You do not truely want to learn about the Catholic faith. You want to evangelize to us. I’m sure you are sincere, but it is a misguided task. I truely believe that “your relationship with Christ is only between you and him” is an excuse to pick and choose what you believe. Jesus built ONE church. A church who does not change as society changes, or to fit what someone wants it to be. As Peter led Christ’s sheep, the Pope continues to lead his sheep. At the request of Jesus.
To use this forum to “show” children how we are wrong is very unchristian. We were trying to answer you very sincerely. I believe there is a special place for those who lead the children astray. To teach the children is one of our most important jobs on earth.
I have yet to see where you have quoted scripture. I have seen you repeat your version of scripture. I am a convert to Catholism. I have heard your arguement for many years. You do not truely want to learn about the Catholic faith. You want to evangelize to us. I’m sure you are sincere, but it is a misguided task. I truely believe that “your relationship with Christ is only between you and him” is an excuse to pick and choose what you believe. Jesus built ONE church. A church who does not change as society changes, or to fit what someone wants it to be. As Peter led Christ’s sheep, the Pope continues to lead his sheep. At the request of Jesus.
To use this forum to “show” children how we are wrong is very unchristian. We were trying to answer you very sincerely. I believe there is a special place for those who lead the children astray. To teach the children is one of our most important jobs on earth.
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Tantum_ergo
Guest
ML, we aren’t lost. We are His sheep and we listen to His Voice. The Good Shepherd would not have left His sheep alone. . .indeed, He told Peter three separate times to feed his sheep and tend his lambs.
Catholics are not “lost sheep” and we don’t need to be “ministered to” and “shown the error of our ways”.
I find it remarkably telling that the majority of Catholics tend to focus on the “similarities” of ALL Christians and to accept that those non Catholic Christians are brothers and sisters. . .
Yet a certain vocal minority of non Catholic Christians cannot seem to return the favor–cannot emulate the Christ-like behavior of the majority of their Catholic brothers and sisters–and instead, see those Catholics as at best deluded and at worst da-ned.
If “by their fruits ye shall know them” was articulated by Christ, I think that one group stands out as more authentically Christian in behavior and practice, don’t you?
Catholics are not “lost sheep” and we don’t need to be “ministered to” and “shown the error of our ways”.
I find it remarkably telling that the majority of Catholics tend to focus on the “similarities” of ALL Christians and to accept that those non Catholic Christians are brothers and sisters. . .
Yet a certain vocal minority of non Catholic Christians cannot seem to return the favor–cannot emulate the Christ-like behavior of the majority of their Catholic brothers and sisters–and instead, see those Catholics as at best deluded and at worst da-ned.
If “by their fruits ye shall know them” was articulated by Christ, I think that one group stands out as more authentically Christian in behavior and practice, don’t you?
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ml1957
Guest
MIDWESTMOM,
Thank you for your message. I sincerely understood what you said,an the way you said it.
The one thing we can count on is God. He is the same yesterday as today. If we allow the words and teachings of man guide us and make changes to gods commandments we are not pleasing to him.
The plan of salvation is the same today as if was 2,000 years ago.
I honestly do not understand all the the pomp and traditions, the ring kissing,the smoke and mirrors, the calling a man on earth holy,the outfit, purgatory,the popemobile, and the entire catholic system.
Since you come from outside the catholic church you may understand where I am coming from.
Do you think that me as a christian,a non catholic is saved?
Thank you for your message. I sincerely understood what you said,an the way you said it.
The one thing we can count on is God. He is the same yesterday as today. If we allow the words and teachings of man guide us and make changes to gods commandments we are not pleasing to him.
The plan of salvation is the same today as if was 2,000 years ago.
I honestly do not understand all the the pomp and traditions, the ring kissing,the smoke and mirrors, the calling a man on earth holy,the outfit, purgatory,the popemobile, and the entire catholic system.
Since you come from outside the catholic church you may understand where I am coming from.
Do you think that me as a christian,a non catholic is saved?
C
Cairisti
Guest
Well, I’m not a Catholic yet - was raised Southern Baptist. I have read and learned of the first century church and the early Church fathers (those guys who learned from the Apostles themselves) and guess what - the Catholic Church *is *the Church of the first century. True, it doesn’t exactly like it did 2000 years ago, but then I’m sure no one here looks like they did when they were an infant.
The Catholic Church is a follower of Christ. Please listen to the others on this board. You might want to try reading books of their ( the early Church fathers, not posters ) writtings. The Four Witnesses is a nice start.Gotta go to work now.
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Karen1996
Guest
Welcome to the forums and peace be with you.
If you are looking for the exact word “pope” in the Bible, which is what you are doing, you will not find it. Similarly, you will not find the exact word “Daddy” in the Bible either. However, this is what I call my father out of *love, affection, and respect and because he is the head of my family. *This does not diminish or take away from my love and worship of God. In fact, it reinforces it.
As Catholics, we call the Bishop of Rome (the pope’s official title) pope (i.e. papa) out of *love, affection, and respect, and because he is the head of the whole Christian family on Earth, just as you would say your pastor is the head of your own church. *
God entrusted my care to my father the same way, through Jesus Christ, He entrusted everyone’s earthly care (even yours) to Peter with the help of the other apostles, the early church fathers (men) and their line of successors has never been and never will be broken. And they have shepherded us and will continue to, as any father would his children, with the guidance of the Holy Spirit, because this is what Jesus told them to do, IN THE BIBLE.
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mommy
Guest
You can’t find the word Catholic in the Bible - you dont’ find the word Bible in the Bible either. Catholic means “universal” mean the one universal chuch. I don’t recall Jesus saying “You are the rock I’ll build my churches on”
As far as a Pope:
So what did Jesus mean when he said: *“You are Peter, and on this rock I will build my Church, and the gates of hell will not prevail against it” (Matt. 16:18). *
And it sounds as if Jesus was leaving us someone to guide us after Jesus ascended to Heaven
*'When they had finished breakfast, Jesus said to Simon Peter, ‘Simon, son of John, do you love me more than these?’ He said to him, ‘Yes, Lord; you know that I love you.’ He said to him, ‘Feed my lambs.’ A second time he said to him, ‘Simon, son of John, do you love me?’ He said to him, ‘Yes, Lord; you know that I love you.’ He said to him, ‘Tend my sheep.’ He said to him the third time, ‘Simon, son of John, do you love me?’ Peter was grieved because he said to him the third time, ‘Do you love me?’ And he said to him, ‘Lord, you know that I love you.’ Jesus said to him, ‘Feed my sheep’" (John 21:15-17).
*
There’s a lot more on the apostolic succession, but I can’t post the whole NT here.
As far as “adding to the word of God” The Bible states that not everything is in the bible:
- "Now Jesus did many other signs in the presence of the disciples, which are not written in this book; JN 20:30
“So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by letter.” (2 Thess. 2:15)
“Though I have much to write to you, I would rather not use paper and ink, but I hope to come to see you and talk with you face to face, so that our joy may be complete” (2 John 12)."
*
Sounds like the Bible says that there was a lot more than what was written. This is what we call tradition.
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mercygate
Guest
The Pope does not sit around in the Vatican “making changes to God’s Commandments.” Nor is what he teaches, in his capacity as Pope (and not as a private theologian), “the teachings of man.” The Pope, as Vicar of Christ, is entrusted with preserving the Church of Christ, and** teaching the Word of God. **
Agreed.
You are confusing form with substance. When you’ve been in continuous operation for 2000 years, you accrue traditions – the kind that keep you linked to your forbears in faith. Actually, like you, I used to abhor the pomp, but then I realized that if the papacy had not acquired the power it once held, we would all probably be Moslems today. Now, that might not bother you, but I’ll put up with a little gaudy real estate and a few “pompous” customs in exchange for the Christian faith!
Ring kissing is a feudal custom signifying loyalty.
Smoke? If you mean incense, it comes from the Temple in Jerusalem – Christ himself the great high priest. If you mean how they announce we have a Pope – they didn’t have CNN when papal elections were first determined in conclave.
Mirrors? What mirrors?
Calling a man holy? St. Paul called everybody in the whole Church holy. “Hagioi” that’s the Greek word usually translated as “saints” in Scripture. Should the Pope be thought less holy than the rest of us “saints?”
The outfit: Most liturgical garments derive in style from biblical times. The “outfits” worn in church were “Sunday best.” Since they didn’t get much wear, they lasted longer than street clothes, and when street clothes changed in style, “church clothes” did not. It’s as simple as that.
Purgatory? 'nother thread. Go back to CA home page and click on the the list of tracts for an introduction. It actually IS Scriptural.
Popemobile? Like, Jesus didn’t drive a car, so the Pope shouldn’t ride in one? The popemobile was developed for protection after somebody shot a bullet through the last Pope. Cut us a little slack here, will ya?
Entire Catholic system. Why should you get it? You don’t even seem to want to UNDERSTAND it, much less respect it.
A Catholic would not presume to second-guess the state of your salvation.
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ml1957
Guest
Thanks for all the information. I have learned or at least came away from this posting knowing I need to search further into my studies.
I see some of what your are saying. Jusus did tell Peter that he will build his church upon this rock…
I need to understand why Peter was more special that the other 11.
I beleive the bible tells a story where the Apostles were arguing who was the greatest,hours before Jesus was led to the cross.
At this point I do not beleive the Pope is anyone I need to listen to to be a saved. I also do not beleive that I am rejecting Christ or his teachings by rejecting the Pope as anyone other than a catholic.
I may be back later to discuss things further one day. Until then I leave you as a Christian…nothing more…nothing less.
ML has left the building
I see some of what your are saying. Jusus did tell Peter that he will build his church upon this rock…
I need to understand why Peter was more special that the other 11.
I beleive the bible tells a story where the Apostles were arguing who was the greatest,hours before Jesus was led to the cross.
At this point I do not beleive the Pope is anyone I need to listen to to be a saved. I also do not beleive that I am rejecting Christ or his teachings by rejecting the Pope as anyone other than a catholic.
I may be back later to discuss things further one day. Until then I leave you as a Christian…nothing more…nothing less.
ML has left the building
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SusanL
Guest
I am a convert to Catholicism. It is possible that you will go to heaven one day. That is up to God and not for us to judge.
I am glad that you admit not understanding all of the “pomp and traditions, etc.” If you are a sincere follower of Christ, then please do your homework honestly before you try to ''save" us.
If you didn’t even understand the word “protestant” then you need to do a **lot **more research.
The very least you can do is answer the scriptures quoted to you in regards to your posts. To ignore them and talk around them as if they weren’t there is not **honest **but hurtful. You want to be listened to and we are very ready to listen to people when they are really willing to discuss. Your responsibility in those discussions is to listen with an open heart.
Otherwise, you are using us.
:tsktsk:
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mercygate
Guest
YOu figure that out and come back and tell US! This is one of the great enigmas of the faith. Why Peter, with all his faults? My guess is that it is because of his spontaneous faith: he stepped out of the boat because Jesus bade him come to him on the water. He dropped his nets without thinking . . . “You know I love you.” But the guy who denied him 3 times? The guy Jesus calls “satan?” Go figure. It’s Jesus’ call. Not ours.
You say you “need to understand why Peter.” We don’t. We accept it in faith.
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netmender
Guest
This book - “The Four Witnesses” by Rod Bennett
amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0898708478/qid=1114103722/sr=8-1/ref=sr_8_xs_ap_i1_xgl14/104-7046407-3719956?v=glance&s=books&n=507846
helped me to see that the early, pre-Nicene Christians recognized the authority of the Bishop of Rome.
Question is - what are we going to do? Are we going to say “I don’t see ‘Pope’ in the Bible - end of discussion”, or are we going to do some searching and find out what the first generations of Christians after the Apostles believed/practiced?
amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0898708478/qid=1114103722/sr=8-1/ref=sr_8_xs_ap_i1_xgl14/104-7046407-3719956?v=glance&s=books&n=507846
helped me to see that the early, pre-Nicene Christians recognized the authority of the Bishop of Rome.
Question is - what are we going to do? Are we going to say “I don’t see ‘Pope’ in the Bible - end of discussion”, or are we going to do some searching and find out what the first generations of Christians after the Apostles believed/practiced?
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MariaG
Guest
Excellent suggestion!!!
May I suggest you start here?
catholic.com/library/Authority_of_the_Pope_Part_1.asp
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