The Pope?

[CARose]

ml1957:

…

ML has left the building

It is my hope ML, that you have not left the building, as I see you are still logged in. I’d like to engage in more discussion with you regarding all that Christ left to us so that we might better know and serve God.

As Catholics we understand that Jesus left us teachers, just as the Ethiopian Eunich who was reading scripture in the Chariot understood he needed a teacher when he met with Paul. Scripture is most definitely the inspired Word of God and we the baptised most definitely have within us the Holy Spirit, and yet our ability to know the correct meaning of scripture is not infallible.

But God promised that the Gates of Hell would not prevail against the Church he built on the Rock of Peter. He gave Peter the keys, just as the Head Steward of the household would hold the keys in the absence of the Master. Peter, the first pope, serves as head of household, but it is not his Household. Jesus is the Lord of the Kingdom of God and we await his return.

In the meantime, we have been assured that the Church is the Pillar and Foundation of the Truth, so we turn to this Church with produced the Bible when we have questions regarding its interpretation.

God Bless you brother for taking the time to come here and attempt to save us. This demonstrates your charity and love for our souls. I appreciate it, even as I know that it is due to you lack of full knowledge of All that Christ has intended for us. I will add you to my prayers.

Most sincerely,

CARose

 

[jimmy]

ml1957:

Yes Christ is the head of the Church ( my bad ). Please be patient with me. This is serious stuff. Christ Jesus came to earth as a man and died for the Church. The Gospels are the inspired word of God.
God left us with this inspired word.
We are not to follow any man on earth. We are not told to follow a man on earth. The Pope is a man I see on TV.

Actually that is false. Christ left the Church, and the Church wrote the gospels and the epistles. They came 15 to 50 years after the ressurection. The Church existed from Pentecost in 33AD. Since the Church wrote the books of the bible, it is the Church that has authority. The bible teaches us some of what was taught by the apostles. Paul says that the Church is “the pillar and ground of truth”, not scripture.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

ML, when you come back–and I hope you do–I also hope that you will accept my apology, not for any truth which I stated–there is no need to apologize for truth–but for any lack of charity or any meanness in the WAY I stated it. There is no excuse for a follower of Christ to lack charity, and I freely admit that I blew it, big time. I ask your forgiveness for my lack of charity, and hope that you can find it in you to forgive my love for the truth which led me to momentarily overlook my love for you as a fellow Christian being. God commanded us to love our neighbor as ourselves. God bless you.

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

ml1957:

Where do I begin? How can anyone who reads the Bible (Gods inspired word) come up with the Pope? Does the New Testament sound familiar?

I have a question for you, if you can answer it then I will answer your question.

How can anyone who reads the Bible (God’s inspired word) come up with which books should be in the Bible?

 

[Catholic_Girlie]

ml1957:

Actually I am teaching a Bible Class this evening to a group of 11th and 12th graders. I am gathering all of this info coming from you,and using it for our class.

So, you’re teaching others about Christianity, right? How do you know - with a reverent fear of the Lord - that you are teaching them correctly?

This is why Our Lord Jesus gave us a Pope, a Father to His (Jesus’) Church - so we would be correctly taught. It is honestly that simple for us.

 

[jimmy]

ml1957:

I was able to print 45 posts and discuss them with my high school bible class last night.

The first thing we agreed upon is that hostile or rude comments from loarrose and a few others should be ignored.
We searched a lot of scripture,and came to a few conclusions.
We began by searching for a Pope. We never found one.

We let the words of Jesus guide us unto salvation. Everything we need to know is written for us in the New Testament. You see after Christ died,he left us with the inspired words of God to accept him,or reject him.
We do not read of a Pope. We still can’t find him. Come to think of it,we can’t find the word Catholic in the Bible.

By adding to the word of God you are not pleasing to him. There is no place for a Pope on earth. The Pope is a man. A man on TV.

Also we learned that you become a Christian after you hear,beleive,repent,confess and are baptized. You are added to the Church. How can an infant hear and beleive?

The bible was not compiled until the fourth century by the Catholic Church. It was at the council of Hippo, Carthage, and Rome in the end of the fourth century that they first made a decision on what books were scripture and what was to be put into the bible.

I see that you are discussing this with your class. I would like to ask you and your class, where in the bible does it say what books are scripture? This is a very important question because, if you can’t tell me this, how can you say that the Catholic Church did not have authority in the begining, since it was the Catholic Church that said what was scripture?

Christ did not leave us the bible, he left the Church. It is the job of the Church to teach us what is truth and what is not. The Church wrote the books of the bible in the first century, so they give a very good idea of what we are to believe and what not to believe. But it does not contain everything. That was not the intent of it. The gospels were intended to give a short description of Christ’s life. Acts of the Apostles gave a short description of what Peter and Paul did. Pauls epistles were directed to specific communities to correct errors mainly. Revelation was a vision as well as a liturgical book. None of them were disigned to include everything.

 

[jimmy]

ml1957:

This is exactally the problem. I do not read of an office or a pope. We should reject false teachings. We are to accept Jesus,and his teachings via the written Gospels. The Apostles lived and died.
Where is the office?

Where does Christ teach that the bible alone is the authority? Where do any of his apostles teach that scripture is the sole authority? I will gaurantee that you will never find this.

 

[Ignatius]

ml1957:

This is exactally the problem. I do not read of an office or a pope. We should reject false teachings. We are to accept Jesus,and his teachings via the written Gospels.

As I pointed out in my previous post, you also do not find “Bible” in the scriputre. That doesn’t mean that it doesn’t exist. Neither do you find Trinity; you do believe in the Trinity don’t you?

So, you want to discuss the Bible? Ok; you must remember that it is the Catholic Church which delivered the Gospels and the whole New Testament to you. It is the Catholic Church with the guidance of the Holy Spirit which declared which books should be in the New Testament, gathered them together, and preserved them, undefiled, down through the ages. If it were not for the Catholic Church, you would not have the New Testament. If you are willing to do a little homework, you will find this out. You will need to start with prayer. Pray the Holy Spirit to guide you to the Pillar and Foundation of Truth.

Now, let’s start at the beginning. First Assignment: When, where and by whom was the content of the New Testament defined. Give locations and dates. (HINT: (search for New Testament Canon). Please cite your sources and references.

May the love of God, the peace of Christ, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you.

 

[jimmy]

ml1957:

I am not giving my opinion. My opinion has no merit. Jesus left specific instructions on becoming a member of the Church. The Church…his Church.

Man has added to his instructions,and the Catholic people have created a Pope. Please do not let a man called a Pope lead you.
Please use the inspired word of God,and the holy spirit to lead you to salvation.

We have a list of all the popes starting with Peter. We can give you a list of every single one if you want. Irenaeus in the 2nd century gives a list of the first 13 popes, starting from the apostles.

 

[jimmy]

ml1957:

The baby in the womb is a great example.

A baby cannot sin.
if a baby dies it goes to heaven.

Once the baby ( Boy) knows right from wrong he is accountable for his sins. All have sinned and come short of the glory of God.

The baby, now a boy must hear,beleive, repent,confess and be baptized to be added to the Church.

If we agree to accept the words of Jesus and his teachings we can begin to build a understanding for each other.

Is there a truly concerned loving Catholic on this message board that will agree to listen and discuss scripture with me?
If you are not,please discontinue posting to this topic,and allow me to be heard.

I think everyone on this thread is concerned and willing to discuss scripture, but it is you that is ignoring the authority of the Church. It is clear in the bible that the Church has authority. Look at Matt.16, Matt.18, look at the whole book of Acts of The Apostles. It is Paul that says that “the Church is the pillar and ground of truth”. It is Paul that says, to hold to the traditions whether by epistle or by word of mouth. You are ignoring scripture.

 

[StratusRose]

ml1957:

Thanks for all the information. I have learned or at least came away from this posting knowing I need to search further into my studies.

I see some of what your are saying. Jusus did tell Peter that he will build his church upon this rock…

I need to understand why Peter was more special that the other 11.
I beleive the bible tells a story where the Apostles were arguing who was the greatest,hours before Jesus was led to the cross.

At this point I do not beleive the Pope is anyone I need to listen to to be a saved. I also do not beleive that I am rejecting Christ or his teachings by rejecting the Pope as anyone other than a catholic.

I may be back later to discuss things further one day. Until then I leave you as a Christian…nothing more…nothing less.

ML has left the building

Peter was the most special because IN THE BIBLE he was the first one to proclaim that Jesus was God’s son. I can’t cite the exact place, but it’s there. I am surprised that a bible loving Christian as yourself has missed this.

You have freely and blindly dismissed everyone on this board has pointed out to you several times. I read through this whole thread and was pulling my hair out at you!

Come back when you’re ready to engage in an educated discussion instead of trying to bait us for responses so you can mislead children.

 

[jimmy]

ml1957:

I am not attacking anyones faith. I feel a responsibility to listen to the lost,and make an attempt to show you the truth.

All of the pub that the Pope has recieved,and the new “pope” ,taking his place is exposing people to thinking about God.
I only pray that they see the Pope for what his is,and not accept his traditions and his holiness.
If you are reading this post as a non catholic,please look ,read and study the New Testament. Learn of the first century church,and let them be your example. Be a Christian,a follower of Christ. the Pope and all his magesty is very upsetting to God.

We are lost? It is you that reject the teachings of the apostles and Christ’s Church.

 

[joehar]

Ignatius:

You are a protestant. There are three major groups of christians. Catholic (the Church which Jesus Christ founded). Orthodox, who have full, valid Apostolic Succession and Sacraments. And protestants, those who follow after the reformation in the 16th century.

Here’s some more info:
Do you have any idea when your faith was founded and by whom? You may find this enlightening:

If you are a member of the Jewish faith, your religion was founded by Abraham about 4,000 years ago.

If you are Roman Catholic, Jesus Christ founded your Church in the year A.D. 30.

If you are Islamic, Mohammed started your religion in what is now Saudi Arabia around A.D. 600.

If you are Eastern Orthodox, your sect separated from Roman Catholicism around the year 1054.

If you are Lutheran, your religion was founded by Martin Luther, an ex-monk in the Catholic Church, in 1517.

If you belong to the Church of England (Anglican), your religion was founded by King Henry VIII in the year 1534 because the pope would not grant him a divorce with the right to remarry.

If you are a Presbyterian, your religion was founded when John Knox brought the teachings of John Calvin to Scotland in the Year 1560.

If you are Unitarian, your group developed in Europe in the 1500s.

If you are a Congregationalist, your religion branched off Puritanism in the early 1600s in England.

If you are a Baptist, you owe the tenets of your religion to John Smyth, who launched it in Amsterdam in 1607.

If you are a Methodist, your religion was founded by John and Charles Wesley in England in 1744.

If you are an Episcopalian, your religion came from England to the American colonies. It formed a separate religion founded by Samuel Seabury in 1789.

If you are a Mormon (Latter-day Saints), Joseph Smith started your church in Palmyra, N.Y. in 1830.

If you worship with the Salvation Army, your sect began with William Booth in London in 1865.

If you are a Christian Scientist, you look to 1879 as the year your religion was founded by Mary Baker Eddy.

If you are a Jehovah’s Witness, your religion was founded by Charles Taze Russell in Pennsylvania in the 1870s.

If you are Pentecostal, your religion was started in the United States in 1901.

May the love of God, the peace of Jesus Christ and the Fellowship ofthe Holy Spirit lead you to the Pillar and Foundation of Truth!

God Bless

The church started with Jews in Israel, Speaking of that the Eunich in the book of Acts who was baptized by Philip must have been Catholic, what are yall kidding me. I believe when the catholic church started out it really was Christian then all pomp and circumstance changed it all around.

 

[jimmy]

joehar:

The church started with Jews in Israel, Speaking of that the Eunich in the book of Acts who was baptized by Philip must have been Catholic, what are yall kidding me.

Yes, he was Catholic. The Catholic Church began in 33AD. Ignatius uses the phrase “The Catholic Church” around 100AD. It is highly possible that the name was used previously to that. The Apostles were Catholic, even though they were Jewish. Catholicism is the fulfillment of Judaism. We are basically fulfilled Jews.

 

[netmender]

ML - some ideas:

**Acts 16:4 **Now while they were passing through the cities, they were delivering the decrees which had been decided upon by the apostles and elders who were in Jerusalem, for them to observe.
Note - Shows that the early congregations were not autonomous.They were willing to put themselves under the direction of an authority outside of their congregation. In this case it happened to be the council that had met in Jerusalem. Notice that Peter was present at that council.

2 Thessalonians 2:15 So then brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which youu were taught, whether by word of mouth or by letter
Note - Paul here lays out two modes of transmitting information - “word of mouth”, or “letter”.
Even if you can’t be convinced that the “office” of Pope is spelled out in the Bible (“by letter”), you must admit to the possibility that it was contained in the “word of mouth”, or verbal teaching. How could we check this out? See below:

2 Timothy 2:2 The things which you have heard from me in the presence of many witnesses, entrust these to faithful men who will be able to teach others also.
Note - Who were these “faithful men” that Timothy, and other students of the Apostles, entrusted their teaching to? Were they, or were they not, succesful in passing on this teaching?

I’ve already mentioned a link to the book “The Four Witnesses”. You will find the answer in there. Also, I will encourage you to look into all of the early Church fathers. The Catholic Answers website, where you are, has a lot of good information. The early Fathers were much closer to the apostles than we are now. They were closer to the Apostles methods of interpreting the Bible than we are. They were in the generations that were thrown to the lions. You will find the authority of the Bishop of Rome, and many other matters, discussed by them. I have confidence that, if you really check them out, you will discover the same things that I have.

Hope this helps - netmender

 

[CARose]

jimmy:

Yes, he was Catholic. The Catholic Church began in 33AD. Ignatius uses the phrase “The Catholic Church” around 100AD. It is highly possible that the name was used previously to that. The Apostles were Catholic, even though they were Jewish. Catholicism is the fulfillment of Judaism. We are basically fulfilled Jews.

Well said Jimmy, you are quite correct!

(oh and did I get it wrong, was it Phillip, not Paul whom he met up with?)

Anyways, yes, this is the same Catholic Church, we’re just the grown-up version, just as an acorn is the babe and the oak tree is the same thing, just looking a whole lot bigger and more complex. That’s what happens over time.

But it has been divinely guided, as promised by Christ to Peter and it retains the fullness of the Truth. When we have disagreements about the interpretation of scripture, we don’t split into two groups, (although there have been occations where someone leaves the Church, hence the Protestants), instead we defer to authority, our teachers to assist in clarifying the true meaning of Scripture and the Sacred Tradition (rather than Traditions of Men). Ultimately, when an issue gets big enough to require a definitive answer, typically the Bishops are called together in a Council (the first can be found in the Acts of the Apostles) where the Pope presides, just as Peter made the final call in Jerusalem regarding circumcision for Gentile converts. If a council proposes something and it is not in accord with the Pope, it does not become the teaching of the Church, for it is the Head Teacher who has been given the Charism of Infallibility in matters of Faith and Morals. This does not mean he can’t sin, it merely protects him from teaching error. It also doesn’t mean he will step up and teach when he should, that requires his cooperation, his free will.

I hope this helps,

CARose

 

[ml1957]

I can’t get past the whole Pope thing. The Pope is not Peter. Who told Peter to appoint another Peter when Peter died?
A conclave? Cardinals?

Before Jesus left earth he did not establish an earthly Kingdom. Jesus left earth to make ready a kingdom in heaven. Even the Jews thought his Kingdon would be on earth. When they found out otherwise and that the Gentiles could also be a part of the Kingdon in Heaven they crucified him. He left us with the apostles which all lived and died…and from them he left diciples…that lived and died.
I consider myself a diciple of Christ. I will also live and die.

Why can’t the Pope work miracles? Peter and the Apostles performed them. Jesus also performed miracles,so that all might know that he is the Son of God.
The only reason I can find for Catholics needing a Pope is that their faith is not strong enough to beleive in Jesus,and trust Jesus.

 

[jimmy]

ml1957:

I can’t get past the whole Pope thing. The Pope is not Peter. Who told Peter to appoint another Peter when Peter died?
A conclave? Cardinals?

Christ established the apostles as authority over the Church with Peter at the head of them. He gave them the authority to lead the Church. Peter and the apostles decided to appoint successors, and those successors decided to appoint successors and so on.

Before Jesus left earth he did not establish an earthly Kingdom. Jesus left earth to make ready a kingdom in heaven. Even the Jews thought his Kingdon would be on earth. When they found out otherwise and that the Gentiles could also be a part of the Kingdon in Heaven they crucified him. He left us with the apostles which all lived and died…and from them he left diciples…that lived and died.
I consider myself a diciple of Christ. I will also live and die.

He established a Church. The Church is both on earth and in heaven. Christ established a leader of the Church on earth to lead them to Christ and to keep unity in the one Church which Christ had founded.

Why can’t the Pope work miracles? Peter and the Apostles performed them. Jesus also performed miracles,so that all might know that he is the Son of God.
The only reason I can find for Catholics needing a Pope is that their faith is not strong enough to beleive in Jesus,and trust Jesus.

Can you work miracles? How do you know the pope can’t? I would actually say that to confect the Eucharist is a miracle. If you are speaking about healing people who says he can’t. Even if he can’t, that doesn’t mean anything. Not all of the disciples of Christ are able to do miracles. In fact, very small minority can heal people.

By the way, a miracle is done by God. It would be more proper to say that it is done through the pope.

 

[CARose]

ml1957:

I can’t get past the whole Pope thing. The Pope is not Peter. Who told Peter to appoint another Peter when Peter died?

The first example of replacing the office of the apostles is seen when they replace Judas’s office with Barnabus. This is where we can see in the bible the concept that there are offices which are passed on to others. This was after Christ died and yet he approved this, and sacred scripture confirms that this was the correct approach to take.

A conclave? Cardinals?

They’re simply a human mechanism by which we select the Pope. This could be changed, but it has been handed down as tradition because it works

Before Jesus left earth he did not establish an earthly Kingdom.

He did leave a Church, he built it upon the Rock, Peter (he changed Simons name to Peter to signify how he, Christ, would ensure that Simon, now the Rock would have a strength unlike his nature before the decent of the Holy Spirit whom Jesus sent to his church.

I consider myself a diciple of Christ. I will also live and die.

Excellent, so do I!

Why can’t the Pope work miracles?

Who says he can’t. Are you tempting God, dependant upon signs for your faith? I accept what Grace God determines is necessary for my salvation and hope to have the Faith necessary to see me through.

The only reason I can find for Catholics needing a Pope is that their faith is not strong enough to beleive in Jesus,and trust Jesus.

This is rude and beneath you. Please try to be more civil! We love God, the Bible and live our lives as Christ himself asked, following the Truth of the Church, as we’ve shared here many times.

I need to go, I hope to see you here again tomorrow.

CARose

 

[Osage_Orange]

from ml:

We let the words of Jesus guide us unto salvation. Everything we need to know is written for us in the New Testament.

So does this mean the Bible is now composed of only 27 books!?? Whatever happened to the Old Testament? If EVERYTHING you need to know is only in the last 27 books of the BIBLE, then you are neglecting the Word of God

Man has added to his instructions,and the Catholic people have created a Pope. Please do not let a man called a Pope lead you.
Please use the inspired word of God,and the holy spirit to lead you to salvation.

But you are neglecting the inspired word of God by picking through the Bible and using only a part of it to “lead you to salvation.” The Catholic Church has NOT “added to [Jesus’] instructions…” Catholics have FOLLOWED those instructions for two millenia; it is the ones who broke from the Catholic Church that have added/subtracted from His instructions.

If we agree to accept the words of Jesus and his teachings we can begin to build a understanding for each other.

How can we come to agree *what *Jesus taught? People who interpret Scripture for themselves claim that they are being led by the Holy Spirit. If that is true, then why are there thousands of differing beliefs that contradict eachother? Does God contradict himelf? Can contradiction come from the Holy Spirit? *T**his is why Jesus founded the Catholic Church, to guide us to the Truth and away from exponentially growing contradictions!!

Is there a truly concerned loving Catholic on this message board that will agree to listen and discuss scripture with me?
If you are not,please discontinue posting to this topic,and allow me to be heard.

allow me to be heard." To get respect you have to give respect; why don’t you allow everybody with differing opinions from yours be heard in turn?

I am not attacking anyones faith. I feel a responsibility to listen to the lost,and make an attempt to show you the truth.

This seems like a blatant contradiction to me. I thought you came here to learn why we believe the Pope is biblical, not trying to “show [us] the truth.” Don’t get me wrong, it is good to try to spread the Truth, but God gave you two ears and only one mouth. The least you could do would be to LISTEN to some of these great posts and stop ignoring everything and just regurgitating these “Catholics have invented this or that and don’t follow Christ” accusations.

If you are reading this post as a non catholic,please look ,read and study the New Testament. Learn of the first century church,and let them be your example.

I’ll add one thing to the above quote, then I’ll agree with it COMPLETELY!! Study the Old Testament as well as the New Testament!

I honestly am not trying to be rude or anything with this post but I can’t help but point out a few glaring holes in logical argument. I hope I haven’t come off that you, but I’m only human I sincerely hope we can ALL have the Truth. I’m a firm believer in God’s superfluous mercy that extends to all people!