The Pope

[George2]

You rely on the Bible to tell you everything?

What did Christians do in the four hundred years before the Church assembled the Canon? Were they not Christians because they had no authority?

Have you not read Peter, Christ’s appointed leader of the first Christian community warning men not to interpret scripture apart from the community?

Have you heard the expression Biblioatry?

We were promised the Holy Spirit by Christ to be our advocate and to guide us personally and as a community. While he did not denigrate scripture, there is no record in scripture or tradition of him planning what protestantism proposes - scripture as a xian’s sole authority.

You are claiming something as your authority that the Church, which has all due authority in these matters assembled itself.

Don’t you see the illogicality of that?

In fact there is more scriptural evidence for the papacy - the Petrine nature of the Church, than for the atomistic one you propose.

Protestantism is wrong.

 

[jimmy]

Christ came as a servant therefore we should act as servants. The pope is called the servant of servants because that is what he is.

Christ was both the high priest and the humble servant. Therefore there is no reason why the Pope can not act as both the supreme pontif and the servant of servants of God.

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

George2:

You rely on the Bible to tell you everything?

What did Christians do in the four hundred years before the Church assembled the Canon? Were they not Christians because they had no authority?

Have you not read Peter, Christ’s appointed leader of the first Christian community warning men not to interpret scripture apart from the community?

Have you heard the expression Biblioatry?

We were promised the Holy Spirit by Christ to be our advocate and to guide us personally and as a community. While he did not denigrate scripture, there is no record in scripture or tradition of him planning what protestantism proposes - scripture as a xian’s sole authority.

You are claiming something as your authority that the Church, which has all due authority in these matters assembled itself.

Don’t you see the illogicality of that?

In fact there is more scriptural evidence for the papacy - the Petrine nature of the Church, than for the atomistic one you propose.

Protestantism is wrong.

Canonisation was ended some centuries after Pentecost - this is does not imply that there were no canonical books before the canonising of the NT was ended. Canonisation did not happen all in a day - it was a process lasting centuries. Most of the Bible had the status of Scripture quite early on: because most of the OT was recognised as Scripture in time for Our Lord to quote it. So the Church was never without a body of inspired books. That body was simply not as extensive as it became - that is the only difference between Our Lord, and St. Jerome, for example: the canon known to Our Lord and His disciples was smaller than that known to Jerome and Augustine.​

 

[RBushlow]

.
Before the Cannon was established, there was no coherent body of NT Scripture. What led the people of Christ at that time (as at the present) was the Magisterium in the form of General or Ecumenical Councils of the successors of the Apostles.

Go in peace to love and serve the Lord.

 

[joehar]

I am not bashing but take a look at this site. If this isn’t idolatry i don’t know what is.

daveandangel.com/CRN/Shame_Of_The_Popes.shtml

 

[ChrisR246]

joehar:

I am not bashing …

No, you are avoiding all the comments that refuted your earlier statement.

If this isn’t idolatry i don’t know what is.

You said it, I didn’t.

 

[Apologia100]

joehar:

I am not bashing but take a look at this site. If this isn’t idolatry i don’t know what is.

daveandangel.com/CRN/Shame_Of_The_Popes.shtml

You obviously don’t know what idolatry is.

 

[joehar]

yes i do, it is the infallible word of God… Dont you?

George2:

You rely on the Bible to tell you everything?

What did Christians do in the four hundred years before the Church assembled the Canon? Were they not Christians because they had no authority?

Have you not read Peter, Christ’s appointed leader of the first Christian community warning men not to interpret scripture apart from the community?

Have you heard the expression Biblioatry?

We were promised the Holy Spirit by Christ to be our advocate and to guide us personally and as a community. While he did not denigrate scripture, there is no record in scripture or tradition of him planning what protestantism proposes - scripture as a xian’s sole authority.

You are claiming something as your authority that the Church, which has all due authority in these matters assembled itself.

Don’t you see the illogicality of that?

In fact there is more scriptural evidence for the papacy - the Petrine nature of the Church, than for the atomistic one you propose.

Protestantism is wrong.

 

[joehar]

Apologia100:

You obviously don’t know what idolatry is.

Yes i do, when you pray to graven images it is idolatry, When you pray to statues that is plain wrong. You can have a personal relationship with him, Call upon the name of the Lord and you shall be saved (really)…i dont have anything against anyone i am saying this in love .

To God be the glory forever and ever amen…

 

[Apologia100]

joehar:

Yes i do, when you pray to graven images it is idolatry, When you pray to statues that is plain wrong. You can have a personal relationship with him, Call upon the name of the Lord and you shall be saved (really)…i dont have anything against anyone i am saying this in love .

To God be the glory forever and ever amen…

Idolatry is the worship of idols, or any other false god. Catholics (Popes in particular) do not worship the statues, they worship what the statue represents. In the case of Mary and the saints, they are venerated, not worshipped. So, when I pray in from of a statue of Jesus, I am not worshipping the statue itself, but rather I am worshipping Jesus. Please don’t be obtuse on this issue.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

By your logic, Joehar, when you pray in front of your Bible, aren’t you worshipping your Bible?

Don’t you treat your Bible with a little extra care than you would an ordinary book?

If someone were to try to tear a page, or throw dirt on it, wouldn’t you try to protect it just a little more than you would if you were reading a comic book?

But nobody says that because you treasure THE WORDS PRINTED ON A PIECE OF PAPER that you “IDOLIZE” the print, or the paper.

Neither does a Catholic, praying to God while READING THE WORDS PRINTED ON A PIECE OF PAPER, or praying to God while SEEING A STATUE OF JESUS, “idolize” the paper, or the statue.

 

[FightingFat]

joehar:

I am not bashing but take a look at this site. If this isn’t idolatry i don’t know what is.

daveandangel.com/CRN/Shame_Of_The_Popes.shtml

I have to say, I thought that page was quite funny! Especially this bit-

The brazen Holy Father demonstrates just how seared his conscience is, as he attempts to communicate with dead Wood Gods.

It just demonstrates a lack of understanding- I don’t mean that in a derogatory way, just it’s like so ridiculous!

 

[RNRobert]

joehar:

I am not bashing but take a look at this site. If this isn’t idolatry i don’t know what is.

daveandangel.com/CRN/Shame_Of_The_Popes.shtml

So, I guess by your standards, King David was committing idolatry when he danced before the ark (2 Samuel 6:14).

 

[John_of_Woking]

RNRobert:

So, I guess by your standards, King David was committing idolatry when he danced before the ark (2 Samuel 6:14).

Good shout. I hadn’t thought of that citation. No Catholic has ever claimed that one worships the material of a statue or the statue. One venerates the saint it represents. Just like someone might hang a picture of the wife on their mantelpiece it doesn’t mean their idolatrous!

 

[Fidelis]

joehar:

I am not bashing but take a look at this site. If this isn’t idolatry i don’t know what is.

daveandangel.com/CRN/Shame_Of_The_Popes.shtml

With all due respect:

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!

That is the most juvenile attempt at anti-Catholicism I have seen in years–almost as bad as Jack Chick and some of the Iglesia Ni Cristi stuff ("Our name means Church of Christ, so we must be the church Christ founded :whacky: ")

Thanks for the laugh. Now do us all a favor and go read Catholicism and Fundamentalism
shop.catholic.com/cgi-local/SoftCart.exe/online-store/scstore/p-B0121.html?L+scstore+flpc4546ff25d825+1112566078

or click here
catholic.com/library/anti_catholicism.asp

 

[HagiaSophia]

joehar:

i dont have anything against anyone i am saying this in love .

Well let me return some of it then by offering some simple advice, you don’t want to be posting stuff like this, since it marks people who read this kind of stuff as uninformed, rather ignorant and not quite “with it” who lack verbal skills. When you want to make inquiries into someone else’s beliefs that you don’t share, the “lovingest” way to do that is to ask a simple question. You become informed about beliefs you don’t share, but in how you do things, you indicate that you are yourself, an educated person who is simply seeking to “understand” rather than promote the kinds of stuff that come out in mimeographed tracts from kooks.

joehar:

To God be the glory forever and ever amen…

Amen.

 

[RBushlow]

joehar:

I am not bashing

You are being intellectually dishonest. Bashing is precisely what you are doing.

this isn’t idolatry i don’t know what is.

Clearly, you don’t know what idolatry is.

May the Holy Spirit remove the scales from your eyes and guide you to the Truth and the Church which Jesus Christ established for His people.

 

[mercygate]

Joehar, lemme give ya a hug.

The daveandangel link is downright laughable – except that people (like you?) actually believe stuff like this. C’mon. You can’t possibly believe that this kind of thing in ANY way expresses or interprets real Catholic teaching.

The Catechism of the Catholic Church is always a good place to start when you are looking (seriously looking) for a true Catholic answer to your questions. Here is a link to the *Catechism: *scborromeo.org/ccc.htm

Here is a quote from the CCC on the use of images (the numbers refer to footnotes cited in the CCC:

[*](javascriptpenWindow(‘cr/1159a.htm’) Holy images

1159 The sacred image, the liturgical icon, principally represents Christ. It cannot represent the invisible and incomprehensible God, but the incarnation of the Son of God has ushered in a new “economy” of images:

Previously God, who has neither a body nor a face, absolutely could not be represented by an image. But now that he has made himself visible in the flesh and has lived with men, I can make an image of what I have seen of God . . . and contemplate the glory of the Lord, his face unveiled.27

1160 Christian iconography expresses in images the same Gospel message that Scripture communicates by words. Image and word illuminate each other:

We declare that we preserve intact all the written and unwritten traditions of the Church which have been entrusted to us. One of these traditions consists in the production of representational artwork, which accords with the history of the preaching of the Gospel. For it confirms that the incarnation of the Word of God was real and not imaginary, and to our benefit as well, for realities that illustrate each other undoubtedly reflect each other’s meaning.28

1161 All the signs in the liturgical celebrations are related to Christ: as are sacred images of the holy Mother of God and of the saints as well. They truly signify Christ, who is glorified in them. They make manifest the "cloud of witnesses"29 who continue to participate in the salvation of the world and to whom we are united, above all in sacramental celebrations. Through their icons, it is man “in the image of God,” finally transfigured "into his likeness,"30 who is revealed to our faith. So too are the angels, who also are recapitulated in Christ:

Following the divinely inspired teaching of our holy Fathers and the tradition of the Catholic Church (for we know that this tradition comes from the Holy Spirit who dwells in her) we rightly define with full certainty and correctness that, like the figure of the precious and life-giving cross, venerable and holy images of our Lord and God and Savior, Jesus Christ, our inviolate Lady, the holy Mother of God, and the venerated angels, all the saints and the just, whether painted or made of mosaic or another suitable material, are to be exhibited in the holy churches of God, on sacred vessels and vestments, walls and panels, in houses and on streets.31 [1162](javascriptpenWindow(‘cr/1162.htm’) "The beauty of the images moves me to contemplation, as a meadow delights the eyes and subtly infuses the soul with the glory of God."32 Similarly, the contemplation of sacred icons, united with meditation on the Word of God and the singing of liturgical hymns, enters into the harmony of the signs of celebration so that the mystery celebrated is imprinted in the heart’s memory and is then expressed in the new life of the faithful.

 

[Dunmoose]

You are right.

You don’t know what idolatry is

 

[Fergal]

There are not 100 people in the world who hate the Holy Roman Catholic Church.

There are many 1000’s of people in the world who hate what they mistakingly think is the Catholic Church.

We have met one of the latter.