The Pope's big interview

[coachkfan1]

Could you identify a statement of Pope Francis’ that is against church teaching or approaching that status so that we might examine it?

As my dad used to say, “It’s not what you said, it’s how you said it.” Listen, I agree in principle with everything the Holy Father is saying. But in the world in which we live, he HAS to know how the enemies of the Church will take all of this. Modern people will twist so much of what he has said in this interview and previous ones as saying, “I’m okay, you’re okay” type of philosophy. Mercy is wonderful and we are ALL I need of it, but I fear that many will begin to think that sin is not that big a deal.

 

[clem456]

Just a piece from the section that seems to be causing the most discussion. Interesting to see his view on the moral foundation of the Church.

“The dogmatic and moral teachings of the church are not all equivalent. The church’s pastoral ministry cannot be obsessed with the transmission of a disjointed multitude of doctrines to be imposed insistently. Proclamation in a missionary style focuses on the essentials, on the necessary things: this is also what fascinates and attracts more, what makes the heart burn, as it did for the disciples at Emmaus. We have to find a new balance; otherwise even the moral edifice of the church is likely to fall like a house of cards, losing the freshness and fragrance of the Gospel. The proposal of the Gospel must be more simple, profound, radiant. It is from this proposition that the moral consequences then flow.

“I say this also thinking about the preaching and content of our preaching. A beautiful homily, a genuine sermon must begin with the first proclamation, with the proclamation of salvation. There is nothing more solid, deep and sure than this proclamation. Then you have to do catechesis. Then you can draw even a moral consequence. But the proclamation of the saving love of God comes before moral and religious imperatives. Today sometimes it seems that the opposite order is prevailing. The homily is the touchstone to measure the pastor’s proximity and ability to meet his people, because those who preach must recognize the heart of their community and must be able to see where the desire for God is lively and ardent. The message of the Gospel, therefore, is not to be reduced to some aspects that, although relevant, on their own do not show the heart of the message of Jesus Christ.”

 

[JPUSC]

Could you identify a statement of Pope Francis’ that is against church teaching or approaching that status so that we might examine it?

Humanae Vitae:

“18. It is to be anticipated that perhaps not everyone will easily accept this particular teaching. There is too much clamorous outcry against the voice of the Church, and this is intensified by modern means of communication. But it comes as no surprise to the Church that she, no less than her divine Founder, is destined to be a “sign of contradiction.” (22) She does not, because of this, evade the duty imposed on her of proclaiming humbly but firmly the entire moral law, both natural and evangelical.”

“The Church, in fact, cannot act differently toward men than did the Redeemer. She knows their weaknesses, she has compassion on the multitude, she welcomes sinners. But at the same time she cannot do otherwise than teach the law. For it is in fact the law of human life restored to its native truth and guided by the Spirit of God. (24) Observing the Divine Law.”

“28. And now, beloved sons, you who are priests, you who in virtue of your sacred office act as counselors and spiritual leaders both of individual men and women and of families—We turn to you filled with great confidence. For it is your principal duty—We are speaking especially to you who teach moral theology—to spell out clearly and completely the Church’s teaching on marriage.”

“We implore you, to give a lead to your priests who assist you in the sacred ministry, and to the faithful of your dioceses, and to devote yourselves with all zeal and without delay to safeguarding the holiness of marriage, in order to guide married life to its full human and Christian perfection. Consider this mission as one of your most urgent responsibilities at the present time. As you well know, it calls for concerted pastoral action in every field of human diligence, economic, cultural and social.”

…

Pope Francis:

“We cannot insist only on issues related to abortion, gay marriage and the use of contraceptive methods. This is not possible. I have not spoken much about these things, and I was reprimanded for that. But when we speak about these issues, we have to talk about them in a context. The teaching of the church, for that matter, is clear and I am a son of the church, but it is not necessary to talk about these issues all the time.

The dogmatic and moral teachings of the church are not all equivalent. The church’s pastoral ministry cannot be obsessed with the transmission of a disjointed multitude of doctrines to be imposed insistently."

 

[AndyP2010]

As my dad used to say, “It’s not what you said, it’s how you said it.” Listen, I agree in principle with everything the Holy Father is saying. But in the world in which we live, he HAS to know how the enemies of the Church will take all of this. Modern people will twist so much of what he has said in this interview and previous ones as saying, “I’m okay, you’re okay” type of philosophy. Mercy is wonderful and we are ALL I need of it, but I fear that many will begin to think that sin is not that big a deal.

Of course he knows, he just isn’t going to let the fear that he is going to be misunderstood, by some people or even many people, get in his way of preaching the Gospel. I think he clearly intends to keep pounding on the same themes until everyone gets it. I don’t think it is productive to worry about whether others get what he is teaching. The question we need to ask is “Do I understand what he is teaching?”.

On another note I love this:

“Because God is first; God is always first and makes the first move. God is a bit like the almond flower of your Sicily, Antonio, which always blooms first. We read it in the Prophets. God is encountered walking, along the path. At this juncture, someone might say that this is relativism. Is it relativism? Yes, if it is misunderstood as a kind of indistinct pantheism. It is not relativism if it is understood in the biblical sense, that God is always a surprise, so you never know where and how you will find him. You are not setting the time and place of the encounter with him. You must, therefore, discern the encounter. Discernment is essential.

“If the Christian is a restorationist, a legalist, if he wants everything clear and safe, then he will find nothing. Tradition and memory of the past must help us to have the courage to open up new areas to God. Those who today always look for disciplinarian solutions, those who long for an exaggerated doctrinal ‘security,’ those who stubbornly try to recover a past that no longer exists – they have a static and inward-directed view of things. In this way, faith becomes an ideology among other ideologies. I have a dogmatic certainty: God is in every person’s life. God is in everyone’s life. Even if the life of a person has been a disaster, even if it is destroyed by vices, drugs or anything else – God is in this person’s life. You can, you must try to seek God in every human life. Although the life of a person is a land full of thorns and weeds, there is always a space in which the good seed can grow. You have to trust God.”

 

[graciew]

But in the world in which we live, he HAS to know how the enemies of the Church will take all of this. .

He knows the world in which we live.

Do we know our own hearts?

What about the enemy within each one of us?

Can we hear the Voice within that leads us to a greater good?

 

[M-Dent]

As my dad used to say, “It’s not what you said, it’s how you said it.” Listen, I agree in principle with everything the Holy Father is saying. But in the world in which we live, he HAS to know how the enemies of the Church will take all of this. Modern people will twist so much of what he has said in this interview and previous ones as saying, “I’m okay, you’re okay” type of philosophy.

There’s little doubt about this. And why should one doubt the Pope isn’t well aware of this?

It’s not as if the history of the Church over the last 50+ years isn’t a indication? Pope John XXIII was serious about the “medicine of mercy” - and changing the authoritarian style of governance. About encouraging a focus on openness and hope. Yet, frankly, people screwed it up. So, I would expect something of the same contentious arguments to be hurled around. Rebellious attitudes. Stubborn posturing from all corners . And wounded people demanding attention.

The same problems that led Pope Paul VI to stun many with his statement about how through *"*some fissure the smoke of Satan has entered the temple of God."

I’m on the simple mindset - Pope Francis is following his conscience. What he is spiritually convinced God wants us to be aware of. We may not see any change in society in the least, I’d sincerely be shocked if we did.

But the Pope is the Pope for a reason and one needs to reflect on what he is really saying.

Mercy is wonderful and we are ALL I need of it, but I fear that many will begin to think that sin is not that big a deal.

Mercy is more than wonderful. Without a very Merciful God - many of us face a frightening eternity.

The bottom line really is the conversion of hearts and convincing of sin is accomplished by the Holy Spirit, not us. An issue many of us have is lack of understanding and trust in Divine Providence. I am tempted by this not infrequently.

The Truth of the Church remains. Praise God, grace is accessible for all.

 

[clem456]

The enemies of the Church will always be there and it doesn’t matter how the Pope speaks, his words will be used against him. It’s the nature of the business he’s in.

He follows his vocation faithfully, like all of us need to do, and to speak as he is called to do. It takes a certain amount of courage and trust to do that. He should not speak in fear of being misunderstood. It’s in the nature of the position he holds, starting with Peter, to be misunderstood. No matter how he speaks, the world will lie about him, take him out of context, ridicule him, criticize him, even his own people.

I am going to listen to him, pray, and trust God to sort out the impossible.

 

[CatholicFireman]

I posted this link in the other thread: catholicvote.org/old-good-news/

 

[KrazyKat]

The enemies of the Church will always be there and it doesn’t matter how the Pope speaks, his words will be used against him. It’s the nature of the business he’s in.

He follows his vocation faithfully, like all of us need to do, and to speak as he is called to do. It takes a certain amount of courage and trust to do that. He should not speak in fear of being misunderstood. It’s in the nature of the position he holds, starting with Peter, to be misunderstood. No matter how he speaks, the world will lie about him, take him out of context, ridicule him, criticize him, even his own people.

I am going to listen to him, pray, and trust God to sort out the impossible.

As will I.

 

[johnlal]

The Pope hasn’t changed the church’s teachings on any of these issues. I don’t think we’ll be seeing the American Cardinals lining up to give tearful apologies for their positions on these issues any time soon.

 

[MarcoPolo]

Humanae Vitae:

“18. It is to be anticipated that perhaps not everyone will easily accept this particular teaching. There is too much clamorous outcry against the voice of the Church, and this is intensified by modern means of communication. But it comes as no surprise to the Church that she, no less than her divine Founder, is destined to be a “sign of contradiction.” (22) She does not, because of this, evade the duty imposed on her of proclaiming humbly but firmly the entire moral law, both natural and evangelical.”

“The Church, in fact, cannot act differently toward men than did the Redeemer. She knows their weaknesses, she has compassion on the multitude, she welcomes sinners. But at the same time she cannot do otherwise than teach the law. For it is in fact the law of human life restored to its native truth and guided by the Spirit of God. (24) Observing the Divine Law.”

“28. And now, beloved sons, you who are priests, you who in virtue of your sacred office act as counselors and spiritual leaders both of individual men and women and of families—We turn to you filled with great confidence. For it is your principal duty—We are speaking especially to you who teach moral theology—to spell out clearly and completely the Church’s teaching on marriage.”

“We implore you, to give a lead to your priests who assist you in the sacred ministry, and to the faithful of your dioceses, and to devote yourselves with all zeal and without delay to safeguarding the holiness of marriage, in order to guide married life to its full human and Christian perfection. Consider this mission as one of your most urgent responsibilities at the present time. As you well know, it calls for concerted pastoral action in every field of human diligence, economic, cultural and social.”

…

Pope Francis:

“We cannot insist only on issues related to abortion, gay marriage and the use of contraceptive methods. This is not possible. I have not spoken much about these things, and I was reprimanded for that. But when we speak about these issues, we have to talk about them in a context. The teaching of the church, for that matter, is clear and I am a son of the church, but it is not necessary to talk about these issues all the time.

The dogmatic and moral teachings of the church are not all equivalent. The church’s pastoral ministry cannot be obsessed with the transmission of a disjointed multitude of doctrines to be imposed insistently."

Could you break down which parts are heretical?

 

[MarcoPolo]

As my dad used to say, “It’s not what you said, it’s how you said it.” Listen, I agree in principle with everything the Holy Father is saying. But in the world in which we live, he HAS to know how the enemies of the Church will take all of this. Modern people will twist so much of what he has said in this interview and previous ones as saying, “I’m okay, you’re okay” type of philosophy. Mercy is wonderful and we are ALL I need of it, but I fear that many will begin to think that sin is not that big a deal.

Would you say, based on this latest interview, that Pope Francis thinks preaching on certain issues are ineffective unless there is a focus primarily on the core Gospel message of Christ raising up sinners?

 

[JustPink]

And even that focus hasn’t really changed. The ‘rules’ remain the same, and for those who violate them, God’s Mercy is available for those who ask for it.

That has been the case under every single Pope since Peter

Right, but what I meant is, instead of talking about the rules all the time, he’s talking about the “mercy/person” aspect of it more. That’s why some people are upset. But yeah, it’s ridiculous.

 

[coachkfan1]

Would you say, based on this latest interview, that Pope Francis thinks preaching on certain issues are ineffective unless there is a focus primarily on the core Gospel message of Christ raising up sinners?

Yes, I can agree with that. Right now I don’t know how to feel about all this. I just hope that this doesn’t go way off the tracks. Yes, the mercy of God is bottomless, but Christ is also known as the Just Judge, and some of the statements about aetheists and gays could lead those people to believe that it is ok to stay in that state of being and still be in right relationship with God. As I said, I’m not sure what to think at this point.

 

[clem456]

Yes, I can agree with that. Right now I don’t know how to feel about all this. I just hope that this doesn’t go way off the tracks. Yes, the mercy of God is bottomless, but Christ is also known as the Just Judge, and some of the statements about aetheists and gays could lead those people to believe that it is ok to stay in that state of being and still be in right relationship with God. As I said, I’m not sure what to think at this point.

I think the Pope is addressing pastoral approach, rather than emphasizing doctrine and morality. Still, he is not compromising or de-emphasizing anything.
He sees, as we all do, that we need to speak to and minister to people right where they are. The Church’s teachings do not make sense to many people, but we still have a mission among them.
We need to trust that God is in charge of justice and mercy, and that trust can free us to follow our calling. I think Bro JR’s posts reflect this. We (I) are not theologians or philosophers, so I do the things I am called to do and trust the rest to God.

 

[TerryOfromCA]

americamagazine.org/pope-interview

There is much to think about here and it should be read in full. Also I think we need to remember that this is a Jesuit speaking to another Jesuit. There is stuff here that might not be understandable to someone who isn’t a religious and some it only by Jesuits. I will quote a bit about how this came to be.

Editor’s Note: This interview with Pope Francis took place over the course of three meetings during August 2013 in Rome. The interview was conducted in person by Antonio Spadaro, S.J., editor in chief of La Civiltà Cattolica, the Italian Jesuit journal. Father Spadaro conducted the interview on behalf of La Civiltà Cattolica, America and several other major Jesuit journals around the world. The editorial teams at each of the journals prepared questions and sent them to Father Spadaro, who then consolidated and organized them. The interview was conducted in Italian. After the Italian text was officially approved, America commissioned a team of five independent experts to translate it into English. America is solely responsible for the accuracy of this translation. This interview is copyrighted by America Press and cannot be used, except for brief quotations, without written permission.

I view anything that America magazine prints with skepticism.
I would have felt better if he had interviewed with Raymond Arroyo

 

[graciew]

Yes, I can agree with that. Right now I don’t know how to feel about all this. I just hope that this doesn’t go way off the tracks. Yes, the mercy of God is bottomless, but Christ is also known as the Just Judge, and some of the statements about aetheists and gays could lead those people to believe that it is ok to stay in that state of being and still be in right relationship with God. As I said, I’m not sure what to think at this point.

You reminded me of one of his homilies in which he calls Jesus our Advocate. I liked it a lot . The idea of having an advocate made me reflect. If you are interested I can look it up for you.
We are " those people" coming from different sins.
He answered the question " who am I?" By stating " I am a sinner"
I would have grabbed a degree or a certificate or a job so as to answer…so you know, I think there is plenty to look into our own relationship with God there.
Just a thought. Peace.

 

[Tarpeian_Rock]

I view anything that America magazine prints with skepticism.
I would have felt better if he had interviewed with Raymond Arroyo

So you think America magazine made up material that they then attributed to the Pope, or censored some things he did say?

 

[TerryOfromCA]

I view anything that America magazine prints with skepticism.
I would have felt better if he had interviewed with Raymond Arroyo

So you think America magazine made up material that they then attributed to the Pope, or censored some things he did say?

Did I say that? No, I did not.

But they can ask leading questions. Interviewers do it all the time. And they can edit his responses and the overall interview in a way they see fit.

Much can be in an editing room done to spin an interview.

That magazine is a rag, not fit for the bottom of a bird cage

 

[dans0622]

Right, but what I meant is, instead of talking about the rules all the time, he’s talking about the “mercy/person” aspect of it more. That’s why some people are upset. But yeah, it’s ridiculous.

Hello,

The question (not just for you but for any reader) is: who ever talks about the rules all the time?

Who “insists only on issues related to abortion, gay marriage and the use of contraceptive methods”?

Who is “obsessed with the transmission of a disjointed multitude of doctrines to be imposed insistently”?

When, and who was/is responsible for this: “The church sometimes has locked itself up in small things, in small-minded rules.”?

In other words, who is the Pope talking about in these comments? Internet bloggers? Would he bother to address them? If so, why not say so. I have no idea who he is talking about and I doubt anyone here has any idea. So, perhaps these are rhetorical questions.

Dan