The popes on music

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I don’t think music that causes our bodies to move is bad. Nor, surely, would any Catholic say that repetition is bad!

Edwin
All music will involuntarily cause one’s body to move. As a classical musician, I will inadvertently move with the music I am either performing or listening to. It is an involuntary action I do not plan. Almost all musicians do it and I know that most people who enjoy music do it as well. That includes “intellectual” music or “non-thinking” music. Although, I can be in a state of ecstasy while listening to or performing music without moving my body all over the place.

And you are right… as I stated in my other post, there is a lot of appropriate music for liturgy which include repetition, so repetition, in it of itself, is not bad at all.
 
We were on this subject after Life in The Spirit seminar last week. (In case I didn’t mention this already). One fellow said that the priest at one church does a “grab bag” question and answer on Tuesday nights. One night the question of rock music came up and asked if it was bad. The priest said it was bad because of the backbeat (he described basically the same as the author as I posted previously). Anyway, it was interesting that here I’m reading a “protestant” book (as someone referred to it) on the subject and a Catholic priest (traditional Latin mass church) basically says the same thing.

My interest in the subject is that we are trying to get a fresh, new youth group going at our church. It was suggested that we sponsor a trip for the teens to a Power of One concert in the fall. I fail to see how this has anything to do with deepening one’s faith.

I hope you read the book because I truly do want to hear what others think of the subject matter AFTER reading this book. Without being on the same page it’s difficult at best to agree or disagree (or agree TO disagree). Their research and arguments seem very exhaustive.

In joy,

Laura J
 
One more interesting thought:

I emailed a girlfriend and told her I was almost finished with a book called, (blah-blah-blah) and a back-up book, (blah-blah-blah) and how interesting the subject matter was.

She replied back in an email:

i loathe the christian rock station…rubs me wrong but never knew any controversy about it…just seems like the songs take on the same sensual/sexual inuendos that other rock songs do, but put Gods name in there instead…weird…

I was shocked to hear her reply when I told her NOTHING of what I read. But she nailed it. I was impressed. She is a very devout Catholic of whom I am grateful to have befriended. She’s a gift.

In joy,

Laura J
 
One more interesting thought:

I emailed a girlfriend and told her I was almost finished with a book called, (blah-blah-blah) and a back-up book, (blah-blah-blah) and how interesting the subject matter was.

She replied back in an email:

i loathe the christian rock station…rubs me wrong but never knew any controversy about it…just seems like the songs take on the same sensual/sexual inuendos that other rock songs do, but put Gods name in there instead…weird…

I was shocked to hear her reply when I told her NOTHING of what I read. But she nailed it. I was impressed. She is a very devout Catholic of whom I am grateful to have befriended. She’s a gift.
This is totally different than the basic components of the music. What is described here is the rendering of the music - stylistically - not the actual use of the western music scale and all of its components. I agree with your friend. I always found Christian rock music laughable - even from the time I was a child and my born-again Christian cousins listened to that stuff. It always either sounded like substandard versions of rock music or love songs that substituted God or Lord in them. There is even a South Park episode that lampoons this.
 
Ljsedivy, would you want to read Kerry Livgren’s Seeds of Change? Might change your perspective on rock music. 🤷

And do you even understand the musical terms you’re using? “Backbeat”. Used somewhere in pretty much every genre of music. Including classical (in the broad sense). So what other forms of art would you like to condemn? Country? Jazz? Reggae? And how is rock evolving from the blues so bad? Have you ever even listened to any early blues artists? Usually just vocals and guitar. You don’t really get a backbeat from that.
 
We were on this subject after Life in The Spirit seminar last week. (In case I didn’t mention this already). One fellow said that the priest at one church does a “grab bag” question and answer on Tuesday nights. One night the question of rock music came up and asked if it was bad. The priest said it was bad because of the backbeat (he described basically the same as the author as I posted previously). Anyway, it was interesting that here I’m reading a “protestant” book (as someone referred to it) on the subject and a Catholic priest (traditional Latin mass church) basically says the same thing.
Again, there are many sacred compositions which uses backbeat. I don’t know if the priest is a musician, but for me, as a classical musician and a Catholic, I would need more than what the priest and the author described for their reasoning.

I do hope to read the book, because I would like to see what kind of arguments they use in a musical sense. Again, I am against rock music in liturgy because of the stylistic rendering of the music, so please know that I am not arguing for the use of it.
 
so for music to be justifyed by the pope
if the drums were removed and the lyrics were moral, then its cool?

or is the guitar frowned upon too

like is it okay to listen to folk music that doesnt have clapping or anything keeping rhythm in the background

i love rock music
im just too afraid that the pope is right and that when i die God will ask why i didnt listen to the pope, and i will go to hell

the pope makes no sense in his reasoning either
its just the fact that his statement was so bold and general
 
All music will involuntarily cause one’s body to move. As a classical musician, I will inadvertently move with the music I am either performing or listening to. It is an involuntary action I do not plan. Almost all musicians do it and I know that most people who enjoy music do it as well. That includes “intellectual” music or “non-thinking” music. Although, I can be in a state of ecstasy while listening to or performing music without moving my body all over the place.
Agreed on all points. I was addressing the criticisms made of rock music, not implying that classical music doesn’t affect the body or that bodily movement and ecstasy necessarily go together.

Edwin
 
so for music to be justifyed by the pope
if the drums were removed and the lyrics were moral, then its cool?

or is the guitar frowned upon too

like is it okay to listen to folk music that doesnt have clapping or anything keeping rhythm in the background

i love rock music
im just too afraid that the pope is right and that when i die God will ask why i didnt listen to the pope, and i will go to hell

the pope makes no sense in his reasoning either
its just the fact that his statement was so bold and general
There aren’t any simple answers, as much as we would all like it to be. If there were, there wouldn’t be so many centuries of this kind of debate with liturgical music. As you can see, there is A LOT that goes into what is appropriate and what is not for liturgy. It’s not just so simple as taking out the drums or the guitar. It also has nothing to do with “keeping rhythm in the background” because as I noted in my previous posts, Palestrina, Tallis and various other composers whose compositions are used in liturgy have had very complex rhythms and extreme textures in their works - much more so than what you would hear in rock or folk music. Listen to this piece by Tallis - “Spem in Alium” (perhaps my favorite motet). It’s a piece of 40 voices - meaning each voice has its own separate part. In layman’s terms - there is A LOT going on in this music (much more than what you’d hear in rock music) that it is completely overwhelming. There are so many textures, harmonies, different rhythms, etc. all voices - no accompaniment. But it is still appropriate for liturgy.

youtube.com/watch?v=aMz7ufLN-L4&feature=related

And there is this more simple motet by Tallis “If ye love me” (we actually used this for our wedding during the Offertory. It’s another one of my favorite motets) This has the music, so you can follow along and see how the voices correspond and intertwine with each other. In terms of beat, like in all music, there is a constant beat which is felt and can be seen in the music itself. It’s fairly simple. But even this has more going on than in some rock songs.
youtube.com/watch?v=mvu0lrliPW0&feature=related

So, it has more to do with the rendering of the work and how the instruments are used, rather than the components of the music and the instruments themselves. I know that someone could take “If ye love me” and “rock” it up. At that point, because of the way it is rendered, it would sound too secular and thus not appropriate. Sort of like how very early forms of polyphony were used at mass. It still had a secular sound and thus inappropriate for mass and is why it was banned.

A good and complete understanding of music and its history as well as the Church’s history with liturgical music is important. This pope, in particular, is a musician, so his understanding of music is a bit deeper and, in many ways, different from how other popes or people look at liturgical music and secular music. There is truth with how another poster stated that he “understands Beethoven” and music in general. It doesn’t make him or any person who is a properly trained musician better than anyone else. But it does give them an advantage.

Where is the entire speech or talk that he made which made this “bold” statement? Can you link it?
 
Agreed on all points. I was addressing the criticisms made of rock music, not implying that classical music doesn’t affect the body or that bodily movement and ecstasy necessarily go together.

Edwin
I wasn’t making myself clear. :o I didn’t think you were implying that. I was just adding that no matter what style of music, it will affect us bodily, spiritually, emotionally, etc. I also agree that to critique rock music for that reason would not make sense because of how the effect of music is pretty much universal. It is a bit different when you are dealing with only rhythms and no actual music at all, (and I have had many students who didn’t know how to sing a simple melody because all they listened to were rhythmic works with no actual music. It took a while to teach them a simple melody because of that - at least that was from my own observation, but I also heard that from other colleagues who taught the same ages.) but that is a totally different thread.
 
so for music to be justifyed by the pope
if the drums were removed and the lyrics were moral, then its cool?

or is the guitar frowned upon too

like is it okay to listen to folk music that doesnt have clapping or anything keeping rhythm in the background

i love rock music
im just too afraid that the pope is right and that when i die God will ask why i didnt listen to the pope, and i will go to hell
These are questions I have, too. I am a huge music lover, rock music especially. When I read what some of these rock artists stand for it makes me cringe.

And by the way, yes, all music is going to evoke an emotional response – that’s what art does. But it’s the particular emotional response that some forms evoke that raise questions/concerns.

I don’t think there’s any comparison between an orchestra/opera experience and that of a rock concert.

Again, my question/concern is that of our youth group’s involvement in a Christian Rock concert. I thinks I should start a thread on that but I was hoping this thread would have answered it for me.
 
I don’t think there’s any comparison between an orchestra/opera experience and that of a rock concert.
Two words: Moody Blues. 😛

And concerning orchestral/opera experiences, the one I went to yesterday was a real disappointment. Zimmerman’s Canto di speranza literally sounded like he randomly pointed on staff paper and made dots. It was kind of like the rumble from West Side Story except ten times less coherent, and there wasn’t a gang fight.
 
These are questions I have, too. I am a huge music lover, rock music especially. **When I read what some of these rock artists stand for it makes me cringe. **
What I bolded is important for you and for anyone. If some of these rock artists stand for something bad and create their music to promote immoral activity, then that would be something to really think about it. But that doesn’t mean that all rock musicians are like that. It is the same with the creators of any kind of music. There have been many composers who stood for things that would make people cringe, yet their music spoke something totally different. What has to be discerned is whether or not the composer or song writer is truly putting his/her own personal beliefs into their music OR if they placed music first before their personal beliefs. And when spiritual beliefs intertwine with spirituality in music, then that is something special.
And by the way, yes, all music is going to evoke an emotional response – that’s what art does. But it’s the particular emotional response that some forms evoke that raise questions/concerns.

I don’t think there’s any comparison between an orchestra/opera experience and that of a rock concert.
One thing to remember is that there have been people who believed that any kind of secular music was immoral to listen to or to perform.

One of the most well-known was the 1913 premiere of Stravinsky’s “The Rite of Spring”. The music and the ballet caused such an uproar, that the people rioted in the concert hall. Chaos erupted, fights ensued. It was so new, the music so complex, that people thought it evoked too much sexuality and paganistic barbarism. When you listen to the music now, it’s hard to believe that it actually incited that much hatred and intense feelings of sexuality at the premiere.

And again, this was also thought of in secular polyphony. People actually believed that it incited sexual desires and caused immoral sexual actions.

There have also been other experiences in opera, in which certain operatic stories caused a lot of scandal. For many years, female opera singers were condescended upon because it was believed that to be a woman who sang on the stage was so immoral that they treated these women like they were prostitutes. This was especially true in the 1600s. The castrati were looked at like rock stars during the 18th century at the height of their power. And for some, they were very desirable to lusty women because they couldn’t get pregnant. Their voices were apparently so penetrating, that it made women absolutely swoon. Their voices were described as being incredibly angelic, but at the same time so earthy and sensual, having the chest power of a man, but the virtuosity and range of a woman. It created an incredible, sexual stir in women when these castrati were heard. Although the Church never actually condoned the practice, it was welcoming to them because women at one point were still not permitted to sing in church. They finally officially banned it in the early 1900s because it really was mutilation and not fair to the boys. But by that point people were no longer doing it to their children, thank God.
Again, my question/concern is that of our youth group’s involvement in a Christian Rock concert. I thinks I should start a thread on that but I was hoping this thread would have answered it for me.
What are the opinions of the other people involved in running this concert? What about that of the pastor? Have you listened to any of the music by the Christian rock groups? Have you heard anything that might incite something immoral? Do you know anything about their backgrounds? These are things to consider.
 
Two words: Moody Blues. 😛
hahahaha! Oh, my! My dad used to have a Moody Blues record and I loved listening to it as a kid.
And concerning orchestral/opera experiences, the one I went to yesterday was a real disappointment. Zimmerman’s Canto di speranza literally sounded like he randomly pointed on staff paper and made dots. It was kind of like the rumble from West Side Story except ten times less coherent, and there wasn’t a gang fight.
Oh, yuck. Sort of like Schoenberg’s Pierrot Lunaire? Have you ever seen the sheet music for that? As much as I have tried to appreciate his music (although I have liked his some of his early works), I really can’t stand it.
 
One more interesting thought:

I emailed a girlfriend and told her I was almost finished with a book called, (blah-blah-blah) and a back-up book, (blah-blah-blah) and how interesting the subject matter was.

She replied back in an email:

i loathe the christian rock station…rubs me wrong but never knew any controversy about it…just seems like the songs take on the same sensual/sexual inuendos that other rock songs do, but put Gods name in there instead…weird…

I was shocked to hear her reply when I told her NOTHING of what I read. But she nailed it. I was impressed. She is a very devout Catholic of whom I am grateful to have befriended. She’s a gift.

In joy,

Laura J
Not that I condone South Park, but your friend’s email reminded me of the premise of one of their shows. Cartman and company formed a Christian rock band. They substituted secular love songs with the name Jesus. When they peformed them, the songs sounded eerily like a lot of CCM. I thought that it was funny, as did a priest friend of mine.
 
I hate to say this, but I truly hope the pope is wrong with thinking that rock music is the work of the devil. Because if he’s right, then most of my friends, family, and basically most people I know are going to the bad place. Oh and yes if he’s right, I’ll be with them as well. :crying:

This also call the whole question of popal infallibility.

But, listen to the Rock Band (RED). Basically the best christian music I have ever heard.
 
I hate to say this, but I truly hope the pope is wrong with thinking that rock music is the work of the devil. Because if he’s right, then most of my friends, family, and basically most people I know are going to the bad place. Oh and yes if he’s right, I’ll be with them as well. :crying:

This also call the whole question of popal infallibility.
Not sure if you read the entire thread, but the Pope’s opinion/belief on rock music is not a part of papal infallibility. If he decides to place an official ban on the music altogether, then those of us who listen to it would be in a bit of trouble. But in the past popes have banned music and then lifted the bans. The same could be done if the Pope does decide to ban the music and the next one decides to lift it.
 
Not sure if you read the entire thread, but the Pope’s opinion/belief on rock music is not a part of papal infallibility. If he decides to place an official ban on the music altogether, then those of us who listen to it would be in a bit of trouble. But in the past popes have banned music and then lifted the bans. The same could be done if the Pope does decide to ban the music and the next one decides to lift it.
That’s true. Even if the pope were to ban rock music, we would be free to criticize the decision and argue for its reversal (although we would still be bound by it, and be required to obey).
 
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