The pope's power

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PNEUMA said:
Yes, they use the power in spiritual healing, why not use it in physical healing and other things, that the world need ?
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The Church can’t “turn on” physical miracles. The acting agent in a physical miracle is God. Periodically God will permit such reminders as signs of his power, and to fortify and help our faith to see the spiritual healing that the Church accomplishes.

Now, God allows suffering in this world for purposes we do not fully understand, but it would be related to the value of suffering he demonstrated on the Cross, and that this world is not the final end of the human condition. As well, God teaches that there is a real sense in which we should be more concerned with the spiritual body versus the physical body. *Matthew 10:28 Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.*Why would Jesus not be less concerned with physical wounds to the point of death? That is, as I said, the whole point of his physical healings, to point us to the more critical spiritual healings in which we are called to believe.
 
MarcoPolo said:
Current popes and even priests do these things in their more miraculous form. In the story of the healing of the paralytic, Jesus says to the paralytic that his sins are forgiven. To “show” that he had accomplished this, he said to the man, “rise and walk.” The lesser miracle here is the physical one. Jesus would only need to do this a few times at the beginning to establish the more important teaching of spiritual healing. From then on, when we hear him say that sins were “forgiven,” we would know that a spiritual miracle occurred. We don’t need the visible sign every time anymore.

In the same way, Popes and priests are “walking on water,” changing “water to wine,” and even “raising the dead” in the sacrament of confession with regularity. We have already been given an installment of miracles in the Apostolic age, as well as other miraculous reminders now and then, so that we will retain our belief that the Church continues to perform the most important of miracles with regularity.
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👍
 
PNEUMA said:
Yes, they use the power in spiritual healing, why not use it in physical healing and other things, that the world need ?
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I would suggest that physical healings are not what the world needs. Each of us is appointed to die once - and then judgement. So what is the benefit of a few physical healings when one is going to ultimately die anyway?

Yes it would be nice - especially in cases of children - but it could actually sidetrack many people from the real need in the world for healing.

Peace
James
 
MarcoPolo said:
The Church can’t “turn on” physical miracles. The acting agent in a physical miracle is God…
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Wait, you do believe the saints can do this today ? and you do believe the first century christians could do this ? with the help of God.
 
Hello Pneuma.
PNEUMA said:
Hi Glenda

No, I do not walk on water or multiply loaves and fishes 🙂

I do however believe Jesus when he says,

“He said to them, “Because of your little faith. For truly, I say to you, if you have faith as a grain of mustard seed, you will say to this mountain, ‘Move from hence to yonder place,’ and it will move; and nothing will be impossible to you.”

and

“And the Lord said, “If you had faith as a grain of mustard seed, you could say to this sycamine tree, ‘Be rooted up, and be planted in the sea,’ and it would obey you.”

and I am trying to figure out how to do this 🙂 I already have some clue, as I think Peter and the first century christians also had.
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Thank you for the reply as well.

I like the mustard seed analogy myself. It would come in handy during Spring weeding season: you could say to this dandelion “Be uprooted and planted in the ash can!” and it would obey! 😃

But seriously, our Holy Father DOES work miracles: He serves the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass each and every day and in it we have the re-creation in a bloodless way of the very same Sacrifice that Jesus made upon the Cross two thousand years ago and as the miracle of Transubstantiation occurs, He is fully Present on our Altars in the Eucharist! This isn’t just a matter of us believing Him there. He is there each and every time in each and every Host that is Consecrated and in every drop of the wine that is used, Body, Blood Soul and Divinity. Jesus fully and truly present in the Eucharist just as He said He would be.

Come to Mass soon and see for yourself. If you come during the Easter Season you’ll really get some treats if you observe the Triduum of Holy Thursday, Good Friday, and the Saturday night Easter Vigil. No one could resist Him after that! No one. You could find a Catholic Church near you by going to the website www.masstimes.org

Glenda
 
glendab said:
Hello Pneuma.
Thank you for the reply as well.

I like the mustard seed analogy myself. It would come in handy during Spring weeding season: you could say to this dandelion “Be uprooted and planted in the ash can!” and it would obey! 😃

But seriously, …
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I am serious Glenda, in Mass the priest speaks (Christ’s words) to the bread and wine, that’s the clue I mentioned. Jesus spoke to the storm, wind and fig tree, and told us to speak to the mountain and sycamine tree. The physical world listens to its Creator 🙂 it is possible to alter the physical world with Christ’s words.
 
PNEUMA said:
I am serious Glenda, in Mass the priest speaks (Christ’s words) to the bread and wine, that’s the clue I mentioned. Jesus spoke to the storm, wind and fig tree, and told us to speak to the mountain and sycamine tree. The physical world listens to its Creator 🙂 it is possible to alter the physical world with Christ’s words.
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But we must remember that it is not simply words.

Faith the size of a mustard seed is what is truly required to alter the physical world.

In fact, one could make the case that our physical world IS altered daily by our faith.

The question then is - what is it that we have faith in?

And another fundamental question in all of this is…Just what IS this faith that Jesus speaks of?

Peace
James
 
PNEUMA said:
“Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes in me will also do the works that I do;
and greater works than these will he do, because I go to the Father” John 14:12 RSVCE

And that is what Peter did, because Jesus left.
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Matthew 12:39
Who answering said to them: An evil and adulterous generation seeketh a sign: and a sign shall not be given it, but the sign of Jonas the prophet.
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It seems that there is a way of pleasing God that involves more than giving visible signs.
 
Didn’t Peter walk on water in the presence of Jesus rather than his own power?

I accept that God has done extraordinary miracles throughout the centuries such as Fatima etc. It is always God’s choice rather than ours.

So the question becomes why did God choose Peter in the first century and Lucia in the 20th century?

Perhaps it was needed in the 1st century to found Christianity and Peter as the leader. Perhaps it was done in the 20th century to oppose the coming Godless atheism.

It could be that the first century was a show of support for the new Covenant ‘holder of the keys’.; and the 20th century to show that the message of a 10 year old girl was superior to the might of intellectual, progressive atheist Portugal.

I think the question of why Pope Francis doesn’t walk on water is close to treating God as a power to be harnessed rather than an intellectual Being with purpose.
 
JRKH said:
But we must remember that it is not simply words.

Faith the size of a mustard seed is what is truly required to alter the physical world.

In fact, one could make the case that our physical world IS altered daily by our faith.

The question then is - what is it that we have faith in?

And another fundamental question in all of this is…Just what IS this faith that Jesus speaks of?

Peace
James
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it’s a combination of words, faith and authority

Jesus never said “faith the size of a mustad seed” or “faith as small as a mustard seed”

He said

“if you have faith as a grain of mustard”

biblehub.com/interlinear/luke/17-6.htm

and

“if you have faith as a seed of mustard”

biblehub.com/interlinear/matthew/17-20.htm

A mustard seed has no doubt in God, that’s the point, not the size.

“. Truly, I say to you, whoever says to this mountain, ‘Be taken up and cast into the sea,’ and does not doubt in his heart, but believes that what he says will come to pass, it will be done for him.Have faith in God”

It is God that develops the seed into a gigantic tree, it is God that moves the mountain or sycamine tree, into the sea. You (Jesus) just have to say the right words

🙂

" abide in you, ask whatever you will, and it shall be done for you.my words"

 
Pneuma, it is okay to use God’s help, but we are weak and fallen creatures. God is very cautious about what He allows us to see, because He knows we will blow it out of proportion - or worse, we will worship the signs and miracles, and not the Giver of the miracles.

More importantly, about the hardness of heart. It isn’t just something that happens today; those in Christ’s time, too, asked for miracles because they were a wicked generation (Luke 11:29). They put the Lord their God to the test (Deuteronomy 6:16). Even when the people of Israel saw all the miracles in the desert, they still grumbled at Meribah and Massah (Exodus 7:17). The most important reference here is in Matthew 12:39 and 16:4, as well as Luke 11:29. The people who ask for a sign will only receive one sign, that of the Prophet Jonah. What happened to Jonah? Three days and three nights in the belly of a whale. How did Christ repeat this sign? His holy passion and glorious resurrection for our sake on the third day. What more do we need after this? 🙂

We ask for miracles because we do not believe. In all reality, they are not even necessary. Try to think of it from another angle: the signs and miracles Christ did on Earth were only done while He was on Earth so that people who saw Him could believe in Him. The Apostles were the only ones that Christ promised miracles to. It was the founding of His Church that was at stake. We can see the seeds of what is truly required of Christians after the Apostles, however, in John 20:29: blessed are those who have not seen, yet believe. Seeing something is a negation of faith in the thing. Faith is seeing what is unseen. Should we believe in God or the Pope because we see constantly what God is capable of doing in him (i.e. via miracles), or should we believe the Pope’s authority because Christ instituted his office? Man lives on every word that comes from the mouth of God, and that alone is the basis for our life (Luke 4:4).
 
Basilian said:
…We ask for miracles because we do not believe…
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No, I believe, for God all things are possible, that’s why I believe these things are possible to do. But yes, Gods word is spirit and life for us
 
PNEUMA said:
Wait, you do believe the saints can do this today ? and you do believe the first century christians could do this ? with the help of God.
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Evidence attests that miracles have occurred in the early Church as well as today, yes.
 
PNEUMA said:
Do you think there would be more miracles, if the belivers had greater belief in God’s ability to do this ?
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I believe that there would be more miracles if there was more Love (Agape)

Paul tells us that Faith is of no use without Love (1 Cor 13:1-13) and Jesus tells us that we must be perfect in Love (Mt 5:48)

Peace
James
 
JRKH said:
I believe that there would be more miracles if there was more Love (Agape)

Paul tells us that Faith is of no use without Love (1 Cor 13:1-13) and Jesus tells us that we must be perfect in Love (Mt 5:48)

Peace
James
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There is love in abundance in Christ, there’s also power in abundance in Christ, the problem is lack of faith in Christ’s power and love.

"And he could do no deed of power there, except that he laid his hands on a few sick people and cured them. And he was amazed at their unbelief."
 
PNEUMA
You have failed to understand the power which Christ gave to His chosen St Peter as the Rock upon which he built His Church.

Go back to the Bible and learn. The first error is in disregarding the mandate of Jesus, the Son of God, in installing Peter as His Supreme Vicar:
All four promises to Peter alone:
“You are Peter and on this rock I will build My Church.” (Mt 16:18)
“The gates of hell will not prevail against it.”(Mt 16:18)
“I will give you the keys of the Kingdom of heaven." ( Mt 16:19)
“Whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven.” (Mt 16:19)

Sole authority:
“Strengthen your brethren.” (Lk 22:32)
“Feed My sheep.”(Jn 21:17).

His prime function was to TEACH truth and expose error, RULE and SANCTIFY.

Already, Peter had exercised his supreme authority in the upper room before Pentecost to have Judas’ place filled.

To establish Peter’s authority and to strengthen the brethren he was to have the prime role as the Bible shows that Peter is conspicuously involved in all the Church’s important “firsts.” Peter initiated the election of the first successor to an Apostle ( Acts 1:13-26). Peter preached the first sermon at Pentecost (Acts 2:14), and received the first converts (Acts 2:4 1). Peter performed the first miracle after Pentecost (Acts 3:6-7), inflicted the first punishment upon Ananias and Saphira (Acts 5:1-11), and excommunicated the first heretic Simon the magician (Acts 8:2 1).

Peter is the first Apostle to raise a person from the dead (Acts 9:36-4 1). Peter first received the revelation to admit Gentiles into the Church (Acts 10:9-16), and commanded that the first Gentile converts be baptized (Acts 10:44-48).

At the first Apostolic Council of Jerusalem Peter settled the heated discussion over circumcising the gentiles and “the whole assembly fell silent” (Acts 15:7-12). Paul made sure that his ministry to the gentiles was recognised by Peter (Gal 1:I8).
 
So you don’t think Peter’s lack of faith, and subsequently the pope’s lack of faith is the reason ?
 
Pneuma,
I sense frustration with you. Im not accusing wheather it is bad frustration or honest. What is not good is to test the Lord our God.

I agree in part that the question regarding why there ‘seem’ to be little miracles performed these days, as opposed to the days of the apostles. But it is truly not a simple matter! Sacred Scripture also reveals that many false teachers and “wolves” will work signs and lead many astray! Jesus Himself warns that some will do miraculous things yet still Jesus will tell them that He does not know them!

What I take away with this matter is that Jesus, by the Holy Spirit, did and still does provide physical miracles when it is in accordance to the Father’s will. The early Church had, in a true sense, a task greater than any other to come. They revealed a new and unheard Revelation to the world which had no foundation yet (and i do not mean, they didnt have the foundation of the gospel, but the established foundation as witnessed and received by the community). The Apostles were establishing the foundation of the New Covanent with much resistance and debate. There were false prophets and messiahs all about. Our Father gave us the grace of miracles to Confirm those who had “faith such as a mustard seed” in order to feed the faith from the source of the faith… Jesus Christ! This ministry is now, and has been established for many centuries. God’s forgivenes of sinners and their reconciliation to their creator through Jesus who was cruxified and rose from death is a living ministry which has grown and produced fruit ever since.

Remember, St Thomas doubted in the resurrection and was shown by the Lord His wounds. Jesus told them, “Blessed are those who do not see, yet believe.” Faith is enough to see the action of the Lord in our lives. Faith reveals the work which the Father desires. It is corporal works of mercy and spiritual works of love toward our brother’s and sisters. When we seek and do what is pleasing to our God, He will show us the miracles He has fashioned into our lives. But He will also show us the trials of our faith, which we must overcome through keeping His commandments.

Pope Fransis’ ministry is now a cloud of witness and miracles provided from Peter and the Apostles all through the centuries. The Rock established by Jesus was instituted long ago, and has been fixed ever since. The Church is not a factory of ‘bread miracles’. It is a hospitol for the sick.

Peace with you,
Michael
 
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