The Pope's Stand in Obama's Notre Dame Controversy

[katy]

Also, do not forget that Time, etc. would like nothing better than to foment division among Catholics by the way those media present issues. I think the way the article was presented was meant to widen any differences and to create them where they really don’t exist in the first place.

 

[Catholic_Johnny]

For those of you shrugging off Tap11’s thread starter and arguing that the Supreme Pontiff has bigger fish to fry, please consider that Obama is arguably the leader of the free world (at least his office is).

For a Catholic Institution to grant him both the platform to pontificate to ROMAN CATHOLICS about ‘being reasonable’ (the last refuge of the antichrist - always appeal to man’s reason and the Lord’s ‘unreasonableness’) is a direct affront to the Holy See. Obama isn’t just some politician. He is POTUS and as such wields considerable influence world-wide.

‘Father’ Jenkins and Notre Dame: “We have no King but Caesar (Obama)! Away with Messiah Jesus! Crucify Him!”

I am not going to directly criticize the Holy Father, but silence IS a response that many of us are discouraged by…

 

[stuartsfeather]

yes the church is behind on censure in many arenas, but the church is a huge organization. and over the years it has learned the hard way to not over react too soon. as we see with fr. jenkins, even clear guidelines can be misinterpretted, either due to misunderstanding or on purpose. how many people are good parents with bad kids? why don’t those good parents do a better job of censuring their bad children. if they did then the world would be a much better place. so now take the church and multiply by a million or two or three. i’m not trying to excuse the church hierarchy, but the church has been infiltrated over the years with bad shephards and it is going to take some time to either excommunicate them all or atleast wait for them to die off.

its a little of both, in this extremely secular society, most people get their current events of the church from time and cnn, who do their best to shoot down the church as this article shows. so all of these lukewarm catholics who are either catholic in name only or just go to church on sunday out of some sense of obligation, but are writing up their grocery list while they are there. and in the mean time, many pastors are just as ignorant. some “just” celebrate mass the same way some parishioners “just” go to mass. we have had 40+ years of the “spirit” of Vatican II, and Catholicism has been extremely watered down. there are many very good priests doing their best to get the message of the Church out to the people. but the problem is that most of the lukewarm Catholics have never even heard of fr. corapi and others.

it doesn’t get their attention because the lukewarms have been desensitized to it. TV has been slowly building the agenda of the left for decades. everyone doesn’t think abortion is a problem. they think babies in the womb are just a blob of tissue even tho there is plenty of information to the contrary. again, if you are immersed in the secular society like so many Catholics-in-name-only are, you don’t know that these things are a problem. sure we have EWTN as a TV source for the Catholic voice, but over here, the cable company stopped carrying EWTN, the Catholic voice was silenced. where are this poor secular Catholics going to learn about these atroscities??

Please tell me where “over here” is I would like to know what cable company has stopped carrying EWTN. Are you in the USA and if not then where, if you do not mind my asking?

 

[stuartsfeather]

“Who is going to save our Church? Not our bishops, not our priests and religious. It is up to you, the people. You have the minds, the eyes, and the ears to save the Church. Your mission is to see that your priests act like priests, your bishops act like bishops, and your religious act like religious.” - Servant of God Fulton J. Sheen

Thank you RLT for posting this statement by BIshop Sheen. I was beginning to wonder if anyother catholic felt as I do that NO ONE not even the pope is not to be held accountable by the people they are allowed to shepard. Even Saint Peter was instructed on his error by Paul and other church people regarding the gentiles conversions.

It really bothers me when I read posts that say the pope and the vatican in general have bigger issues to deal with than this, I can only surmise that they think the issue we are discussing is simply that pretentious feel goody jerk Jenkins. I do not call him father, the only thing he has ever fathered is discord and lies.

Through the action of ND, Obama was allowed yesterday to remind the world that THE CATHOLIC CHURCH, through it’s Chicago division, was quite instrumental in all of his political work which earned him that honorary degree from that grand CATHOLIC institution ND. If you recall we were told yesterday by that same Jerk from the ND platform that honorary degrees were awarded to those who had already performed works and deeds which have benefited mankind etc.etc.et nauseum. Thus when Obama told us he attributed very much of his ability to perform these wonderous works of his to THE CATHOLIC CHURCH he was laying right on our (THE CATHOLIC CHURCH) shoulders the mantle of joint responsibility for knowing his agenda and helping him obtain all he has and will. Thus you can bet that the hearts of anti catholics the world over jumped with joy to hear what they suspected all along (meaning their conspiracy fears) to be validated by Obama.

Now all that being shoved off my heart and mind have at me if you so desire. I am just like “grandma’s turnip patch” just jump right in and grab a handful but you better be able to chew it, swallow it, and keep it down.

Stuartsfeather,

 

[bkovacs]

Please don’t leave the one true Church. I can guarantee you that the pope is not the “first among equals”! Please read the following:

catholic.com/library/Peter_Primacy.asp

catholic.com/library/church_papacy.asp

scripturecatholic.com/primacy_of_peter.html

The one true church that is divided amongst itself!.

There are divisions amongst the Orthodox, but it’s not in regards to the faith, mainly just jurisdictions. Speaking of just Eastern Orthodox, not Oriental.

On the other hand the one true church is divided in regards to it’s faith. And allows certain priests to get away with it, thanks to the laws brought about by Vatican 2. Those 70 Bishops who opposed the honor for Obama can’t touch Fr Jenkins. thanks to “Canon” laws, brought about after 1967.

 

[turtle18]

It is true that the Church has many other battles in other parts of the world. And we do have the freedom in America to protest, which we all need to thank God for–because we know in other parts of the world we would have lost our lives protesting this.

BUT abortion is the issue of our time. It is the number one moral issue facing America where there are over 60 million Catholics. So I do think there should be some sort of response from the Vatican on this issue. I don’t understand why Pope Benedict could have released a statement–how long would that take? Really, he wouldn’t even write it, he would just need to approve it. It wouldn’t have to even mention Barack Obama by name, it could just be generic such as, “in general it is morally irresponsible for Catholic institutions/univerisities to promote grave evil by bringing in speakers who do not support our religious beliefs.”

I mean think about it, what has Barack Obama said? He wants “dialogue.” (not true but let’s assume for a minute it is). What is the “dialgoue” about? It is whether abortion (a mortal sin) should be legal or not. Suppose this “dialogue” causes some of our Catholic brothers and sisters to accept abortion and even worse, promote abortion. What has Barack Obama and Fr. Jenkins accomplished by their dialogue? They have, in fact, caused Catholics to reject the truth, to turn away from God.

So should the Church ever promote “dialogue” that would could lead its breathern into sin and rejecting the truth of God? The answer should always be NO. A Catholic University should promote Catholic values. Now if Barack Obama gave a speech about how prostitution or drugs should be made legal–what would the majority of Catholics say–they would think that is crazy and they would say, “prositution is wrong or drugs are wrong”–but when it comes to flat out murder you get this “oh we need to dialogue” bit.

It’s not being focused on America, either. Abortion is a global problem. Look what has happened in Russia, abortions out number live births. Is this what the Blessed Mother meant when she asked us to pray for the conversion of Russia?

 

[Catholic20064]

Please tell me where “over here” is I would like to know what cable company has stopped carrying EWTN. Are you in the USA and if not then where, if you do not mind my asking?

The local cable company did not get rid of EWTN, but placed it on a service which cost more money to subscribe to. You have to have a special box to get it because they moved it above channel 99. I switched to Dish Network because of it. And I hate to advertise for Dish Network, but I’m much more satisfied with their service than I was with Comcast because I can get EWTN so easily now.

 

[Mary_Gail_36]

As my European husband likes to remind me, we have it pretty darn good here in North America and the pope honestly has bigger issues elsewhere. We are not being burned for our Faith, having to hold Mass secretly in underground bunkers, our priests and nuns are not being beheaded, and we are not being physically persecuted for our beliefs as in other parts of the world.

Don’t get me wrong, I’ve been one of the most vocal about the whole Notre Dame thing, but honestly when you think about it, I would much prefer that the Holy Father and the Vatican as a whole focus on REALLY serious issues in the world right now and deal with this when he can.

If it comes down to the pope having to decide which issue he’s going to tackle today - the Church in China, or a scandal at Notre Dame, I really would prefer that he address the issues in China first.

This is far from me being indifferent - this is just putting things into perspective. And hardly anything to leave the Church over. sheesh.

EDIT TO ADD:

The article says:
This is so far from the truth, and in the very first paragraph!! I stopped reading any further, if they can’t get THIS right the rest is going to be garbage. Archbishop Raymond Burke is about as high ranking in the Vatican as you can get for cryin’ out loud!! Did Time not read his remarks on the issue?

What garbage.

~Liza

Thank you Liza.

 

[dixieagle]

As my European husband likes to remind me, we have it pretty darn good here in North America and the pope honestly has bigger issues elsewhere. We are not being burned for our Faith, having to hold Mass secretly in underground bunkers, our priests and nuns are not being beheaded, and we are not being physically persecuted for our beliefs as in other parts of the world.

Don’t get me wrong, I’ve been one of the most vocal about the whole Notre Dame thing, but honestly when you think about it, I would much prefer that the Holy Father and the Vatican as a whole focus on REALLY serious issues in the world right now and deal with this when he can.

If it comes down to the pope having to decide which issue he’s going to tackle today - the Church in China, or a scandal at Notre Dame, I really would prefer that he address the issues in China first.

This is far from me being indifferent - this is just putting things into perspective. And hardly anything to leave the Church over. sheesh.

EDIT TO ADD:

The article says:
This is so far from the truth, and in the very first paragraph!! I stopped reading any further, if they can’t get THIS right the rest is going to be garbage. Archbishop Raymond Burke is about as high ranking in the Vatican as you can get for cryin’ out loud!! Did Time not read his remarks on the issue?

What garbage.

~Liza

This is an excellent summation of the situation, I think. The Pope needs to maintain cordial relations with Obama, and thus Abp. Burke was the go-to person on this issue.

I’ve long since stopped paying attention to what most of the mainstream media say about Catholic issues, as they so rarely get it right.

 

[7_Sorrows]

i did not watch the commencement at Notre Dame yesterday. i could not force myself to watch the smug look on Obama’s face as he stood on the grounds of one of the most prestigious Catholic universities in our country and accepted an honorary degree and delivered the address. obviously, there were many Catholics who were delighted to have him there and saw nothing wrong with it. for me, it was another opportunity for Obama to say, as he did after the election “I won”.

i think he must really find it amusing how he can cause so much divide, but in the end, he always comes out the winner.

perhaps the Pope is a little confused about his popularity also. yes, it would have been nice for the Pope to have come out and said something, but i don’t know that he could have said anything different than what the priests and bishops said and to the Catholics who supported Obama being there, i don’t think the Pope making his commentary on the matter would have changed their minds.

 

[ChristinaM]

The local cable company did not get rid of EWTN, but placed it on a service which cost more money to subscribe to. You have to have a special box to get it because they moved it above channel 99. I switched to Dish Network because of it. And I hate to advertise for Dish Network, but I’m much more satisfied with their service than I was with Comcast because I can get EWTN so easily now.

We are switching from Comcast to the new AT&T cable - my husband is dissatisfied with Comcast’s service, and I’m unhappy that they will not carry EWTN. AT&T, on the other hand, does. Comcast has a monopoly in so many areas and it’s sad that the message of EWTN is not able to get out there as much as it should.

This situation with Notre Dame is so tough. I think in a way it gives scandal to non-Catholics. This is a major stumbling block for my non-Catholic husband. He doesn’t understand why priests like McBrien are allowed to go around preaching things that contradict Catholic doctrine. He doesn’t understand why the bishops and Pope don’t do anything about ND. I admit it is trying my faith.

“Who is going to save our Church? Not our bishops, not our priests and religious. It is up to you, the people. You have the minds, the eyes, and the ears to save the Church. Your mission is to see that your priests act like priests, your bishops act like bishops, and your religious act like religious.” - Servant of God Fulton J. Sheen

Great quote! I pray that the Holy Spirit gives our shepherds the courage to do what is right. God bless them.

 

[chewchoo]

Please tell me where “over here” is I would like to know what cable company has stopped carrying EWTN. Are you in the USA and if not then where, if you do not mind my asking?

michigan. and i guess to clarify, they haven’t stopped carrying EWTN completely, but they bumped it to the higher cost package. so a lot of people lost their ability to watch EWTN. its not my life goal to keep cable companies in business ( i don’t even have cable), but anything over $50 is way to much to pay a month for cable and the $50 package no longer carries EWTN. (in my neighborhood anyways)

 

[SIb4G]

i did not watch the commencement at Notre Dame yesterday. i could not force myself to watch the smug look on Obama’s face as he stood on the grounds of one of the most prestigious Catholic universities in our country and accepted an honorary degree and delivered the address. obviously, there were many Catholics who were delighted to have him there and saw nothing wrong with it. for me, it was another opportunity for Obama to say, as he did after the election “I won”.

i think he must really find it amusing how he can cause so much divide, but in the end, he always comes out the winner.

perhaps the Pope is a little confused about his popularity also. yes, it would have been nice for the Pope to have come out and said something, but i don’t know that he could have said anything different than what the priests and bishops said and to the Catholics who supported Obama being there, i don’t think the Pope making his commentary on the matter would have changed their minds.

“And he called them to him, and said to them in parables, ‘How can Satan cast out Satan? If a kingdom is divided against itself, that kingdom cannot stand. And if a house is divided against itself, that house will not be able to stand. And if Satan has risen up against himself and is divided, he cannot stand, but is coming to an end.’” (Mk 3:23-26)

 

[Melvin]

If the Vatican is abivalent, or simply could not care less, does this mean I should I not care? Where is our German Shepard? If the vatican does not take a stand on this I will hearby assume this matter (abortion) to be an overblown issue of the overly pious.
It is either the strong issue we make it to be, or I’ve been a fool.

Yes, this is “Time”, but regardless this issue is well taken here. The vatican, our vatican of which we so strongly profess and submit ourselve to before our brothers and sisters in Christ is SILENT. If they remain so, I see no reason to continue in my fight.

time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,1898756,00.html?cnn=yes

I found the article condescending and arrogant in tone. It’s classification of the Bishops and faithful who opposed this invite as being “conservative,” as if this is all just a “political” disagreement, shows that Time has little if any understanding of the nature of the Church or its mission.

One paragraph did catch my attention, though…in which it is alleged that both John Paul II and Pope Benedict XVI have given communion to pro-choice politicians. Interestingly, it did not mention whether either Pope was aware of the position of the “pro-choice” politician at the time.

Can anyone confirm the allegation or provide a source?

Melvin

 

[NewEnglandPriest]

I think we all need to remember that the USA is not the center of the world. The Holy Father is dealing with literally hundreds of issues a day: the persecution of Catholics in China, terrorism against Catholics in Iraq, issues in the Holy Land, issues with SSPX, civil war and genocide all over Africa, ecumenical matters, etc. etc. etc.

The Holy Father is the chief shepherd of our Church and speaks infallibly, however he does not need to weigh in on every issue. We have local bishops to deal with those things. American Catholics seem to want the Pope to issue a statement on virtually every single issue that happens in American Catholicism. That just ain’t gonna happen.

Afterall, why bother having bishops in each diocese if the Pope is going to comment on everything that ever happens?

 

[NewEnglandPriest]

One paragraph did catch my attention, though…in which it is alleged that both John Paul II and Pope Benedict XVI have given communion to pro-choice politicians. Interestingly, it did not mention whether either Pope was aware of the position of the “pro-choice” politician at the time.

Can anyone confirm the allegation or provide a source?

It was widely rumored, and never denied (that I’m aware of), that Tony Blair received communion from Pope John Paul II.

 

[nonsumd]

I think the world know full well what Pope Benedict thinks about abortion, about pro-abortion politicians, and about Catholic individuals and institutions that fail to criticize pro-abortion politicians for their pro-abortion positions.

I think it was more impressive for so many American bishops to condemn Notre Dame’s inviting President Obama. And even more impressive that hundreds of thousands of lay Catholics voiced their protest. If the Pope had made a statement on this controversy of the expected kind, it would have been easier for many Americans to dismiss him as some sort of distant “foreign potentate” meddling in American affairs.

In any case, while the Pope has indeed been preoccupied with weightier matters, especially with the Holy Land visit (where arguably there is immediately more at stake or more accolpmishable), the Vatican has hardly remained silent – Archbishop Burke, Prefect of the Apostolic Signatura, the Church’s highest judicial authority after the Pope himself, has explicitly condemned Notre Dame inviting President Obama.

Notre Dame should not have invited President Obama in the first place, and once it had it could have refrained from giving him the particular honor (and endorsement) of a degree. While he was going on about a university being a place for dialogue and the exchange of ideas, Jenkins could have in a polite, gracious way walked the president through the arguments against abortion – if the president wanted to walk us all through a rebuttal in favor of abortion rights, then that’d be fine (then we could see whether he thinks differently from what’s implicit in his words equating his daughter hypothetically finding herself pregnant to being a “punishment he would not want her to have to suffer”).

To be frank, I can see why it is so hard to convert people away from supporting the “right to abortion” – people resist the idea that the unborn are among the least of our brethren that Jesus asks us to love, to love as He has loved us, love as we love ourselves. We have let ourselves be seduced into seeing sex as primarily or exclusively a vehicle for the ego’s self-assertion and not for the ego’s self-emptying, its uniting with another human being and with God’s will to create. We forget that the life we have is a gift from God, and we, ungrateful, no longer see ourselves as having a duty to accept the part that God gifts us in passing on His gift.

 

[CoachSTL]

If the Vatican is abivalent, or simply could not care less, does this mean I should I not care? Where is our German Shepard? If the vatican does not take a stand on this I will hearby assume this matter (abortion) to be an overblown issue of the overly pious.
It is either the strong issue we make it to be, or I’ve been a fool.

Yes, this is “Time”, but regardless this issue is well taken here. The vatican, our vatican of which we so strongly profess and submit ourselve to before our brothers and sisters in Christ is SILENT. If they remain so, I see no reason to continue in my fight.

time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,1898756,00.html?cnn=yes

Mijoy,

You are in pain, as all of us are so. Members of our Body are tearing apart from us. We are called to pray for them. Imagine how Christ must have felt for Judas to leave Him. Jesus loved him more than any of us could know how to love, and had to let him go too.

I want to lash out too, in fact I did in my own circles here at home. I cried out, “where are you Jesus when we need you?”, I was deeply saddened by the event and felt so much compassion for those students who have been ripped apart by the selfishness of a misguided ND administration, all in the name of following their consciences.

Pope Benedict and our Vatican, hear and see what is going on in the United States. I assure you that their concerns are for the souls of the faithfully departing first and are going to deal with Father Jenkins and company in a manner that Jesus would have done so. You must be patient at this time and pray for the wisdom and strength to see the Church as He does.

I am in the battle with you! Don’t leave us. God will show us the way.

 

[savienu]

I can’t believe you are taking this article seriously. The Church is VERY clear on abortion.

The Pope represents the ENTIRE CATHOLIC WORLD. The only university he has control over in the US I believe is Catholic University in DC. This is a job for the bishops, not the Pope.

It is ridiculous for Time magazine to say that most US bishops are just ignoring the controversy. The fact that 70 have spoken out speaks volumes! That many US Bishops never speak out.

Thank you, that is what I was going to say. This is the American Bishops’ job, not the Pope’s. He is clearly not silent on the issue of abortion or pro-abortion politicians considering his meeting with Nancy Pelosi. Let’s cut the guy some slack. If this was 200 years ago, he probably wouldn’t have even heard about it since internet and television didn’t exist yet.

 

[JoyProv31]

What timing! I have a junior (only child) whose dream school is (was) Notre Dame as she yearns for a stout Christian education. She had about convinced me to make the sacrifices to afford ND, whose costs are overwhelming for us.

Now I am so ashamed to be associated through the Catholic name with Notre Dame, and for the first time even reluctant to admit being Catholic, there’s no way that I’ll make the sacrifices to send a child to Notre Dame.

Ave Maria sounds good, but they do not offer languages, which as someone who has taught herself Spanish and French to proficiency, yearns for more. Now her choices are Univ Dallas OR Baylor. Just think, Notre Dame single-handedly is sending our kids to Baylor.

Lately in our neigborhood I have heard Notra Dame being called Notra Damned.