The Pope's words on Islam

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September 15, 2006

Two thumbs up for Pope Benedict:thumbsup:👍 for his comments re: Islam! C.S. Lewis made the statement “Islam is the greatest of Christian heresies”. It is time for the “Muslims” to grow up.
 
Steven_Edwards said:
September 15, 2006

Two thumbs up for Pope Benedict:thumbsup:👍 for his comments re: Islam! C.S. Lewis made the statement “Islam is the greatest of Christian heresies”. It is time for the “Muslims” to grow up.
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Amen! As I said before, Hillare Belloc is a great source on the heresy of Islam. Writing 70 years ago, his writing is more timely than ever.

As I said in another thread, my favorite comment coming from the Muslim world was that Benedict is comparable to Hitler. Seeing as a large chunk of the Muslim world denies the holocaust, does this mean they have similar parts in their hair?:rolleyes:

I certainly picked an awesome time to convert. I’m proud to be counted with the Holy Father.
 
Just wanted to throw this out there. Islam is based on faith and Christianity is based on faith. These two faiths are in opposition to one another and there is no criteria for objectively determining which faith is “correct.” This leads to polarization and hatred for the “infidel” on each side which in turn leads to violence and prejudice. What is the solution?
 
Yes, but we don’t have a doctrine of “infidel” and “jihad” in Christianity. It is antithetical to Christ’s teachings. I don’t know how we can work with another faith, whose imperative from their prophet is to annihilate non-believers.
 
The difference, which the Pope was trying to make, is that both secularism and Islam do not use the concept of right reason. Catholicism believes in reason informed by faith. In rejecting right reason one lands in hot water and error very quickly.
 
cestusdei said:
Let’s get this clear. The pope uses a quote that is critical of the propensity of Islam towards violence. The Muslim response is…violent. Doesn’t that prove the point? Instead of being self-critical and introspective they go back to blaming others for their own problems. Islam will not solve its problems by burying its head in the sand. They need to face up to some tough issues.

pro, didn’t you see the 2 Fox reporters recently forced to convert? This is NOT an idolated incident. Forced conversion and persecution of Christians happens every day in Muslim lands. Don’t blame me for leaving the Church. That is entirely your decision. Read the catechism in full and decide then if that is your faith or not. Don’t do the juvenile thing of blaming someone else for your choice. If you believe or even want to believe in the Catholic faith then stay. But it is YOUR decision.
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I don’t blame you, cestus. I thank you. When we talked before, I would feel angry because I thought that your support for nuclear weapons on Muslims and your general hatred and contempt for Islam were tarnishing the good name of my faith.

Now, I realize that you were simply encouraging me to look more honestly at what my faith is, and where it will lead me. If it weren’t for you and people like you, I might not have done that, and I would have become sedentary in my search. The truth is that I never did have anything to get frustrated with in talking to you; you were always helping me to recognize the right message.

Certainly, there is no blame here…I have spent some time learning about Islam and talking to Muslims, and I see a good, honest religion. I used to think that most Catholics would be isnpired to learn and not hate, but the Church has failed to engender this ethic in the ranks…the litany of posts above being an example.

As for stay or leave, I’ve already left. I simply cannot bring myself to believe in the Church anymore. I still believe it’s a good institution with solid moral teachings, but I do not accept that it possesses the fullness of God’s truth.
 
Once again, don’t use me as an excuse. You make your choices and bet your life on them. If I were a betting man I would bet you are in the process of becoming Muslim. If so then be careful. If you decide to leave that religion the consequences are deadly. I will say this. The next nuclear weapon you see used will be by Muslims against Christians, probably right here in the USA. When that happens, if I am still alive, you can come back and argue about how peaceful Islam is and how mean I am.
 
cestusdei said:
Once again, don’t use me as an excuse. You make your choices and bet your life on them. If I were a betting man I would bet you are in the process of becoming Muslim. If so then be careful. If you decide to leave that religion the consequences are deadly. I will say this. The next nuclear weapon you see used will be by Muslims against Christians, probably right here in the USA. When that happens, if I am still alive, you can come back and argue about how peaceful Islam is and how mean I am.
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Once again, let me make clear: there is no excusing, blaming, or any similar thing going on here.

I know that Muslims are good people with a good religion. I have always considered hyperbolic claims about how Muslims want to kill everyone to be untrue, and part of a hate campaign similar to the one directed against Jews in the past. What I did not believe before was that Christianity tolerated this kind of thinking, and that faithfulness to Christianity would encourage individual Christians to reject it as well.

Being a Priest, you have (among other people and a long list of experiences) helped to convince me that this is not the case. When you advocated using nuclear weapons to kill millions of Muslims, I was hard pressed to find a significant number of people who found it shocking or cared. The Pope’s most recent statement post-dates my leaving the Church, and I commented to say it made me sad to read that this problem runs so deep.

I still have a great amount of respect for the Church and its projects. Helping to feed and clothe the poor is above reproach. Its moral teachings are developed and good. But I simply do not any longer believe that the Church is the full truth…this problem with Muslims being one example of a deficiency.

Thank you again, brother Cestusdei. I honestly wish you luck in your own search for God and struggle to obey him. I do not think you are on the right track, but that doesn’t mean you are a bad person or deserving of ridicule.
 
thechrismyster said:
so then, if it’s out of context… how so?
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That rendering of Surah 9:5 is out of context because it doesn’t include, directly before the verse:

-that the only reason this particular group of polytheists could be attacked is that they violated a peace treaty by attacking Muslims first

and directly after the verse:

-That if any of the polytheists stopped fighting and asked for asylum, they would have to be granted safe passage from the battlefield.

The verse is 9:5, read the chapter if you don’t want take my word for the context.

Unprovoked fighting is NOT permitted by Islam. I hope some Muslim posters will clarify that for you as well.
 
pro_universal said:
That rendering of Surah 9:5 is out of context because it doesn’t include, directly before the verse:

-that the only reason this particular group of polytheists could be attacked is that they violated a peace treaty by attacking Muslims first

and directly after the verse:

-That if any of the polytheists stopped fighting and asked for asylum, they would have to be granted safe passage from the battlefield.

The verse is 9:5, read the chapter if you don’t want take my word for the context.

Unprovoked fighting is NOT permitted by Islam. I hope some Muslim posters will clarify that for you as well.
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So far in the world events today, more and more Muslems are called to act violently. Maybe because their image as terrorists has deface Islam, which I am not surprise at all.
 
Based on Pope’s statement which he got from an old document, it is true that Islam has been spread through violence.

“Show me just what Muhammed brought that was new, and there you will find things only evil and inhuman, such as his command to spread by the sword the faith he preached.”

Since the arrival of Islam, its founder had force people to convert, which Mohammed himself took part. History has show that he did not condemn violence but advocate it and took part.
Islam does not deceive the title “religion of the peace,” when in fact it promotes “beheading” infidels if they do not convert.
 
pro_universal said:
Once again, let me make clear: there is no excusing, blaming, or any similar thing going on here.

I know that Muslims are good people with a good religion. I have always considered hyperbolic claims about how Muslims want to kill everyone to be untrue, and part of a hate campaign similar to the one directed against Jews in the past. What I did not believe before was that Christianity tolerated this kind of thinking, and that faithfulness to Christianity would encourage individual Christians to reject it as well.

Being a Priest, you have (among other people and a long list of experiences) helped to convince me that this is not the case. When you advocated using nuclear weapons to kill millions of Muslims, I was hard pressed to find a significant number of people who found it shocking or cared. The Pope’s most recent statement post-dates my leaving the Church, and I commented to say it made me sad to read that this problem runs so deep.

I still have a great amount of respect for the Church and its projects. Helping to feed and clothe the poor is above reproach. Its moral teachings are developed and good. But I simply do not any longer believe that the Church is the full truth…this problem with Muslims being one example of a deficiency.

Thank you again, brother Cestusdei. I honestly wish you luck in your own search for God and struggle to obey him. I do not think you are on the right track, but that doesn’t mean you are a bad person or deserving of ridicule.
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Um, I don’t think the CC support the use of nuclear weapons. I also recalled before the Invasion of Iraq, Pope John Paul II condemned Bush’s Invasion. In fact, the CC does not advocate war which involve the killing of innocent human beings.
 
pro_universal said:
exoflare, no hard feelings at all, and I hope you sleep well. It’s only dinnertime for me!
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I have two more questions that must be asked, before I continue any further.

You seemed to imply that reading the tasfirs was necessary to get an accurate picture of the Quran. Now If I cannot read the Quran in a straightforward manner to get it’s message (I’m still pretty sure it was intended this way), then just whose interpretation am I supposed to accept as the defining voice of Muslim doctrine?

Second, why does this person (or people) have any authority to have their interpretation be the defining one?
 
exoflare said:
I have two more questions that must be asked, before I continue any further.

If I cannot read the Quran in a straightforward manner to get it’s message (I’m still pretty sure it was intended this way), then just whose interpretation am I supposed to accept as the defining voice of Muslim doctrine?

Second, why does this person (or people) have any authority to have their interpretation be the defining one?
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Islam doesn’t have supreme figure head. They have Immans and sheks who make decrees that can condemn a person to death. In fact, they are two types of Muslims, Shiite and Sunni.

I returned from Iraq and these two are always fighting. The extremists bomb and kill fellow Iraqis, which I think is disguising. I wonder why Muslims in Iraq are killing one another? It doesn’t make sense.
 
Mannyfit75 said:
Islam doesn’t have supreme figure head. They have Immans and sheks who make decrees that can condemn a person to death. In fact, they are two types of Muslims, Shiite and Sunni.

I returned from Iraq and these two are always fighting. The extremists bomb and kill fellow Iraqis, which I think is disguising. I wonder why Muslims in Iraq are killing one another? It doesn’t make sense.
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I had the same idea, but that’s my point. Muslims are supposed to read the Quran as a self-sufficient guide to life, and yet I am told that I must read the “tasfirs” to understand it properly. Personally I see this as another diversion, as you can always find tasfirs that disagree with yours and there are no guidelines for which tasfirs carry any authority to begin with.
 
exoflare said:
I have two more questions that must be asked, before I continue any further.

You seemed to imply that reading the tasfirs was necessary to get an accurate picture of the Quran. Now If I cannot read the Quran in a straightforward manner to get it’s message (I’m still pretty sure it was intended this way), then just whose interpretation am I supposed to accept as the defining voice of Muslim doctrine?
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This is not entirely true. It is necessary to read them to interpret the book properly in the way it was meant to be read, and to help figure out all the rules that can come from it. Commentaries give more context and illustrate what the book means by examples from the time. This is the same with the bible…it’s easy to say “oh, just read the book!”, but personal biases and a lack of understanding of the context can lead you astray.

But the main things are certainly straightforward. No unprovoked killing and no forced conversion are two things that come readily from just the Quran.
Second, why does this person (or people) have any authority to have their interpretation be the defining one?
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By drawing on the Quran itself, then making reasoned argument employing a vast array of authorities that Muslims have agreed are authoritative. That started with Muhammad; following his example and recording his sayings helped people to understand the kind of lifestyle that was commanded by the Quran.

The authority in Islam is something like the legal authority in a common law country with a constitution, to make a comparison. There is one central message that rules everything and is the final word, and then the practices of the authorities to help understand and apply the message.
 
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