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BigBill
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You would have time that you lack to sit in the synagogue and pray…
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readsalot
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How can Pro say that not one muslim agrees with forced conversion or violence when it is, and has been happening all over the world over and over? Even if I agreed with him on the violence aspect from the beginning (which I don’t), don’t current events prove EVERY DAY that it is not a religion of peace? Or were the Nazis “protecting” the Jews and Russia was “protecting” Finland.
How can anybody take the claim to peace seriously?
How can anybody take the claim to peace seriously?
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jAlex
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Reminds me of the Fox news reporters’ forced conversions… it seems that at least one group of muslims agrees with this kind of conversions
Alex.
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pro_universal
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Where are these “forced conversions” happening?
The violence is part of a political and economic struggle that, while religious groups join, is not about religion, and doesn’t pretend on either side to be unprovoked. Terrorists do not claim they are fighting to gain territory; they claim they’re trying to “liberate” occupied lands.
As disgusting as their methods are, there really is no case to be made that these people are doing what they do simply because of a desire to convert people by force. They believe their homes have been attacked and invaded, and that this justifies their actions
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pro_universal
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Well, no other Muslims seemed to be embracing the group’s method.
The actions of a terrorist group making a propaganda video don’t even tell you what those terrorists think of Islam. They wanted a video, not converts.
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jAlex
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You sure?.. I don’t buy it
How about forced conversions on hindu people (this looks actually as a mass conversion):
boloji.com/wfs/wfs161.htm
or :
asianews.it/view.php?l=en&art=763
And this is after a simple google search and skimming just the first page.
Sorry, it’s gotta be better than this to be credible
Sure … so then why were they converted anyway if everything they wanted was just the video ?..
It doesn’t make sense to me… They could have choosen to spout their propaganda in a lot of other ways. But they choosed the conversion stuff instead …
Alex
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pro_universal
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Alex,
First of all, the articles you cite don’t actually document any forced conversions. They cite intereligious abuse, without showing anything remotely approaching a campaign to force conversions, or indicating that the political conflicts which certainly exist were not the main source of the violence…which is a two way street. I know Pakistanis whose entire families were killed by Hindu mobs in the partition and border wars.
It is a political war in which the parties identify by religion. And more importantly, regardless of what those individuals do…you won’t find any of them actually claiming that forced conversion is permissible. (Just like you find Christians stealing, but very few to none claiming that stealing is allowed.)
As for the tape…it follows the same pattern of captives everywhere who make videos where they reject their home countries and embrace communism/fascism etc etc. It is a propaganda tactic, and tells us absolutely nothing about what the terrorists actually think of Islam. Furthermore, did you see any Muslims coming out and saying “yes, what they did was permissible”?
Nope…because it’s not.
First of all, the articles you cite don’t actually document any forced conversions. They cite intereligious abuse, without showing anything remotely approaching a campaign to force conversions, or indicating that the political conflicts which certainly exist were not the main source of the violence…which is a two way street. I know Pakistanis whose entire families were killed by Hindu mobs in the partition and border wars.
It is a political war in which the parties identify by religion. And more importantly, regardless of what those individuals do…you won’t find any of them actually claiming that forced conversion is permissible. (Just like you find Christians stealing, but very few to none claiming that stealing is allowed.)
As for the tape…it follows the same pattern of captives everywhere who make videos where they reject their home countries and embrace communism/fascism etc etc. It is a propaganda tactic, and tells us absolutely nothing about what the terrorists actually think of Islam. Furthermore, did you see any Muslims coming out and saying “yes, what they did was permissible”?
Nope…because it’s not.
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jAlex
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pro_universal
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How does religious oppression constitute forced conversion?
???
You’re citing instances of abuse. Abuse not only is not forced conversion, you’re not giving examples of people who claim that Islam permits it. Note that the article clearly cites Muslim victims of the law as well.
This is a curious strategy. Pick a third world country with an abusive government, and then focus on its abuses of religious minorities…that really ignores the larger problem, which is the abusive government (one that also attacks Muslims.)
No statement by Muslims that forced conversion is okay is in these articles, and there isn’t even a clear example of forced conversion for religious purposes or any other.
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sadie2723
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First we need to acknowledge that they are doing it, and that it is happening on a large scale. We need to also attempt to dispel this propaganda about Islam being the religion of peace and tolerance. That is just not the case. While I know all the arguments about “Hey, that is not Islam, that is some fanatic.” I am just not buying it anymore. I am tired of the lack of condemnation by the leaders of Islam for the actions of its followers.
The second step is to stop bowing down to the Islamic people of the world as if we have done something wrong. The Pope tells the truth in a speech and he is a bad guy. Muslims burn a Christian Church to the ground and nobody says a word about it.
I am tired of all of this ridiculous talk about Muslims and peace. It is time that the Muslim peoples of the world actually own up to what their religion teaches: That Islam is to be the one world religion, and that those who do not convert of their own free will are to be killed.
Why lie about it?
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readsalot
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What a watered down bunch of nonsense. Islam was created by a man that advocated violence. He married a girl that was 7 years old and had sex with her at 9. Deviant behavior. He then told people that they need to listen to his rules because they were God’s, then he justified all of the awful things he wanted to do as being required from God. And the same things have been going on since then. Pro, the literature out there is overwhelming. You can sugar coat it for as long as you like. I think most people here would agree that if it walks like a duck and smells like a duck, Quack, it’s a duck.
It is folly to think that there will be peace in the world between Islam and the West as long as the muslims hold true.
Argue all you want, but when DC or NY gets nuked by a MUSLIM and a million people die, please don’t try to tell us about “The religion of Peace”
It is folly to think that there will be peace in the world between Islam and the West as long as the muslims hold true.
Argue all you want, but when DC or NY gets nuked by a MUSLIM and a million people die, please don’t try to tell us about “The religion of Peace”
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readsalot
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What to do about it? Declare war on Jihad.
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pro_universal
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Could you please name one Islamic leader who has not condemned terrorism? Seriously, I can’t think of a single Islamic figure besides Bin Laden himself who hasn’t condemned terrorism. Not one.
Well, one reason not to do this would be that it’s not true. Islam does not teach to kill or convert. I don’t know how to put it anymore plainly. You might think it’s ridiculous, but that doesn’t change the fact that it’s true.
Islam does not command killing non-Muslims, never has, and no one argues that it does…not even the Bin Ladenites make that claim, as violent and evil as they are.
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pro_universal
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Please, direct me to the literature. What did you read that led you to this opinion?
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pro_universal
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It is wrong, to the point of being grossly immoral, to judge an entire religion based on the acts of a tiny number of its followers. September 11th was a horrible enough crime, and the fact is, the truth survived it. Blaming billions of people based on what a few do is wrong.
This is the same thing Bin Laden is trying to sell to Muslims right now…“don’t come crying to me when they invade your countries and cause mass death and starvation! I’m warning you, these Westerners don’t want peace!”…and from there, he justifies violence.
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jAlex
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…and what exactly do they document? Peaceful convesions maybe?..
Is that supposed to be a license to kill for Islam ( which regards itself as a peaceful religion) ?
Besides, I am not aware of hinuds having problems with anybody else around them besides muslims. And afaik their religion cannot be accused in the least, to support any kind of violence.
Alex
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sadie2723
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[/QUOTE]
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pro_universal
Guest
At most, woman trafficking, a social evil that pervades Indian society as much as it does Pakistani.
What!?
Their religion does not support any violence? Are you serious?
Who killed Ghandi? Hint: not Muslims
Do you know what Sati is? How about the Hindu rules for dealing with lower castemen who fall in love with upper caste girls?
I feel like I am living in the twilight zone when I hear Hinduism completely whitewashed next to Islam in comparison.
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jAlex
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Maybe when religious oppression ends up in a forced conversion ?..
Or… migth it be - I’m only guessing here - that forced conversion is religious opression?
Alex.
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readsalot
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Sword of the Prophet for starters.
Are you saying that the deviant sexual behavior was not true?
Do you also think Mohommed was divine? The muslims get violent when someone disrespects Mohammed. Looks like idolatry to me. Mohammed is not God. I think he is a lot like Joseph Smith. Wanted to do what he wanted and used God to justify it.
Either he was a prophet and what he said was true or it is not. If it is not, that makes him a terrible person that has caused much harm to the world. And I do not think he was sent from God.
Anybody else agree?
I mean, either he was or he wasn’t?
Are you saying that the deviant sexual behavior was not true?
Do you also think Mohommed was divine? The muslims get violent when someone disrespects Mohammed. Looks like idolatry to me. Mohammed is not God. I think he is a lot like Joseph Smith. Wanted to do what he wanted and used God to justify it.
Either he was a prophet and what he said was true or it is not. If it is not, that makes him a terrible person that has caused much harm to the world. And I do not think he was sent from God.
Anybody else agree?
I mean, either he was or he wasn’t?
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