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inJESUS
Guest
Amen.
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exoflare
Guest
This is why it’s so hard to find anybody to testify against the “no compulsion in religion” lie. Most of those who got to test out that claim first-hand aren’t around to talk.
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Jesusismylord
Guest
Yes, agreed, we, Catholics also have our violent past, throughout the Inquisition and part of the Crusades, and even now with the violence and ugliness of the sex scandals, but the difference is that the people who practiced violence were doing this AGAINST their faith. It was not at all according to the teachings of the Catholic Faith, which is in fact about giving the enemy the other cheek. Christianity does not preach jihad or “holy war”.
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pro_universal
Guest
All I have to say is…look at this response.
Here’s a significant reason for why I am no longer Catholic.
Post after post on Muslims, and if I refute one point…some other consideration comes in. I point out that other religions have problems with violence as well, and suddenly the claim that Islam is the most evil becomes “well, other bad things don’t justify it!”
I point out that you can’t find a single Muslim authority who says unprovoked killing is permissible or that forced conversion is allowed, I get quotes about democracy from a google Imam.
Quote after quote from the Koran is lifted about battle when literally the next verse says “but don’t fight anyone who doesn’t fight you; give sanctuary to anyone who stops fighting you even if they started it.”
This is really incorrigible ignorance. I could spend all year replying to every post, and it’s clear to me that this would not change any minds on this matter…there would just be another, different issue to justify all the frothing at the mouth.
I’m certainly more comfortable with my own personal decision to end my relationship with Catholicism when I see this, so that’s a good thing from my perspective at least.
I just hope you all will be ready to change your tunes if/when a movement to kill innocent Muslims springs up in our turf. From the looks of things, the lives of innocent Muslims appear to be pretty far down on the list of concerns here.
Here’s a significant reason for why I am no longer Catholic.
Post after post on Muslims, and if I refute one point…some other consideration comes in. I point out that other religions have problems with violence as well, and suddenly the claim that Islam is the most evil becomes “well, other bad things don’t justify it!”
I point out that you can’t find a single Muslim authority who says unprovoked killing is permissible or that forced conversion is allowed, I get quotes about democracy from a google Imam.
Quote after quote from the Koran is lifted about battle when literally the next verse says “but don’t fight anyone who doesn’t fight you; give sanctuary to anyone who stops fighting you even if they started it.”
This is really incorrigible ignorance. I could spend all year replying to every post, and it’s clear to me that this would not change any minds on this matter…there would just be another, different issue to justify all the frothing at the mouth.
I’m certainly more comfortable with my own personal decision to end my relationship with Catholicism when I see this, so that’s a good thing from my perspective at least.
I just hope you all will be ready to change your tunes if/when a movement to kill innocent Muslims springs up in our turf. From the looks of things, the lives of innocent Muslims appear to be pretty far down on the list of concerns here.
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Georgess
Guest
'" All things work well for those who love God and are called according to His will…"
Since a contrite spirit is precious in the eyes of The Lord , this incident would again make us look - at ourselves …and be thankful that we can and do apologise , in every Holy Mass and in every Mercy prayer . for our lukewarmness …for the millions spent on the davinci code …for our rebellion against all Godly values The Church calls us to …
And even be able to , in the midst of it all see what is good and true in all faiths as Pope JohnPaul 11 had wanted us to - even in the Quran, with its respect for the Bl. Mother …and The One God …
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pro_universal
Guest
The position is not what matters; consensus on the issues exists for important moral laws like: killing, adultery, etc etc etc. There is broad consensus on every single one of the ten commandments, for example, in Islam.
You are claiming that self-appointed leaders are creating problems, but what you are failing to recognize is that no one, anywhere in this tradition, argues that unprovoked killing is allowed. Not even Bin Laden. That’s pretty good evidence that the book does not command killing unbelievers…and if you’re reading it to say otherwise, you got it wrong.
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Rocky
Guest
So Pro-Universal, was the provocation of American troops stationed in Saudi Arabia with the consent of the Saudi government enough to justify Bin Laden’s attack on the US?
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Image_of_God
Guest
This is completely contradicting to the events that happen in the life of our Lord, Jesus of Nazareth. Even though people were accusing him of bad things, he was NOT provoked and in fact he disagreed with provoked killing. When Peter tried to get out his sword to kill the men who were beating him, he said…“those who live by the sword, will die by the sword.” It says to "kill the unbeliever " and we are unbelievers because we do not believe the message the way Muhammed sent it and that is why when people try to convert to Christianity they end up being killed. Just the fact that we are not Muslims should not be provoking.
So is it provoking to kill a Muslim for wanting to believe in Jesus as God’s Son on account of his freewill?
Absolutely NOT. This type of killing should NOT be provoking because some one is using their freewill to choose their faith.
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pro_universal
Guest
Of course not. Nothing justifies attacks on civilians.
But Bin Laden has something of a western idea of “total war”, where once his people have been attacked, he can justifiably attack civilians on the other side.
The argument from their perspective is that US support for ruthless and unpopular dictators like Saddam, the House of Saud, Mubarak, and the Jordanian monarchs constitutes an attack on the Muslim holy lands. They also view sending weapons to Israel as participation in a war against Muslims.
While we can argue about many things on this subject, I think it is beyond dispute that people in this region have been victims of unjust oppression, and that the United States shares a significant role in supporting and enabling the abusers.
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Image_of_God
Guest
This is completely contradicting to the events that happen in the life of our Lord, Jesus of Nazareth. Even though people were accusing him of bad things, he was NOT provoked and in fact he disagreed with provoked killing. When Peter tried to get out his sword to kill the men who were beating him, he said…“those who live by the sword, will die by the sword.” It says to "kill the unbeliever " and we are unbelievers because we do not believe the message the way Muhammed sent it and that is why when people try to convert to Christianity they end up being killed. Just the fact that we are not Muslims should not be provoking.
So is it provoking to kill a Muslim for wanting to believe in Jesus as God’s Son on account of his freewill?
Absolutely NOT. This type of killing should NOT be provoking because some one is using their freewill to choose their faith.
I have no disrespect for Muslims, but I do disagree with some of the contexts in the Quran.
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Rocky
Guest
Pro Universal Quote:While we can argue about many things on this subject, I think it is beyond dispute that people in this region have been victims of unjust oppression, and that the United States shares a significant role in supporting and enabling the abusers. unquote
While you did say that nothing justifies attacks on civilians, you then turn around and seem to put the blame on the 9/11 attack on the US. If nothing justifies the attack, then nothing justifies it. period. Not that people in the region have been victims of unjust opression or that the US shares a significant role in supporting and enabling the abusers.
Can you make a short declarative statement saying that?
While you did say that nothing justifies attacks on civilians, you then turn around and seem to put the blame on the 9/11 attack on the US. If nothing justifies the attack, then nothing justifies it. period. Not that people in the region have been victims of unjust opression or that the US shares a significant role in supporting and enabling the abusers.
Can you make a short declarative statement saying that?
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pro_universal
Guest
Wait, how did I put the blame on the US? Not once did I say the attack was justified.
What I wrote about was how Bin Laden rationalizes his crimes. He doesn’t do it by saying “oh, there are some troops here and they’re infidels” alone. The systematic abuse of Muslims is what he seizes on, and in that sense, he is using a fact that no reasonable person could deny.
He is drawing a twisted and evil conclusion, but he’s not exactly making mountains out of molehills either.
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Rocky
Guest
Actually, as I remember after 9/11 he did state that it was because of foreign, non-muslim troops stationed in Saudi Arabia that gave him permission to attack the US.
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pro_universal
Guest
No, he did not state that alone, though that is certainly a part of the reason. He said those troops were there only to defend American cronies and help to prosecute a war on Muslims. He also mentioned Israel…look up his speeches sometime and read them.
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cestusdei
Guest
Which religion is currently, right now, attacking civilians, burning religious buildings, killing clergy, murdering converts…it ain’t us. And when the evil being done is named the response is MORE violence. When you hear of a terrorist attack which religion do you immediately think is behind it, Catholicism or Islam? The Pope condemns religious violence and is threatened with death. Does that make sense, is that reason at work? You will have to wait a long time before you see Christians doing to Muslims what they are doing to us right now. When Catholicism is attacked we do not respond that way.
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jAlex
Guest
I looked at what the Pope said and I see nothing wrong with it. Did you actually read what the Pope said ?
Do you think trumpeting and repeating this ad nauseum on every thread about muslims will make somebody’s day ? It’s just pathetic. You said it once, we’ve all got it, now please try to come up with some real arguments. Not even a muslim leaves his faith for the reasons you keep repeating.
Maybe - just maybe - is this because Islam gives enough fuel for the fire by acting irrational ? I would be glad if I would not have to write so many “considerations”. But there are too many to be ignored.
You can tell volumes about a culture’s level of civilization by looking three things: education, belief system and behaviour. If their belief system and education leads them on streets for a simple cartoon or statement… then no thanks! I would not convert to such a belief system in a million years - I’d rather pack my belongings and move to Mars. At least the rovers NASA sent there are more intelligent and they won’t start a jihad anytime soon.
Because from all religions in existence in the 21st century only Islam behaves like they’ve just made it past the bronze age - all the solutions to their problems require a bat (or an AK-47).
The others seem to have wised up a bit.
Nobody can find it but, strangely enough, forced conversions and unprovoked killing do happen. Which one of the three failed to do its job: the belief system ? the level of education? the culture?
Well then! For goodness sake! Somebody should go in an teach those fanatics what they were missing in their Quran readings because they surely behave like they’ve never seen these verses ! I earn to see even one muslim living up to these ! Should also the Pope do the readings for them ?
But it’s not about ignorance! I desperatly want to believe that what they are doing is not because the Quran tells them to! But at every turn their actions prove me dead wrong and people die because of this !
I am now watching TV and I see the gatherings of people going nuts for the Pope’s out of context quote and then I wander who is really frothing at the mouth…
Did you make a mission statement of repeating this over an over ? Because the first time I heard it I felt pity, then I become confused about the reasons you did it and now I am starting to think that you’re just looking for excuses for leaving your faith. Poor soul ! May God have pity on you.
All the debate here is not about the innocent muslims. It is about those that stir up hatred and - in your words - are irrationaly foaming at the mouth for some ridiculous things. God will always care for his innocents - christians and muslim alike . That’s for sure!
Alex.
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StCsDavid
Guest
[Coptic Pope Shenouda III](javascript:siteSearch(‘Coptic Pope Shenouda III’)
said in published remarks that he didn’t hear Benedict’s exact words but that “any remarks which offend Islam and Muslims are against the teachings of Christ.”
Apparently this Coptic Pope has not read Luke 12, either. Talk about a political sell out by the Coptic Church’s leader. Very sad.
said in published remarks that he didn’t hear Benedict’s exact words but that “any remarks which offend Islam and Muslims are against the teachings of Christ.”From Foxnews.com
Apparently this Coptic Pope has not read Luke 12, either. Talk about a political sell out by the Coptic Church’s leader. Very sad.
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cestusdei
Guest
His people are persecuted and vulnerable. He is afraid for them. When you have a gun to your head it is hard to be objective. The poor Copts suffer a great deal.
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exoflare
Guest
Why do you have to keep diverting the subject? I asked you whose interpretations of the Quran are authoritative for Muslims, and why. So far you still haven’t given me a single name.
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pro_universal
Guest
jAlex,
That was a long and energetic post, but I’m going to try and take the main point here:
You’re saying that, regardless of what I say about the teachings of Islam, the actions of the followers prove that the religion commands killing, right?
If that’s the case, we can safely conclude that Christianity commands killing. There are Christians all over the world disobeying their religion right now and killing people. Latin America is a prime example, Africa is another, and Eric Rudolph is another right here in the USA.
This is very strange. You recognize that Christians kill people even though their religion forbids it; yet when Muslims kill people, you absolutely refuse to allow for the possibility that these “Muslims” disobey their religion.
Citing an article about some people in Pakistan who commit murder does not prove that Islam commanded them to do it. It doesn’t even prove that they think Islam commanded them to do it.
Do you have something besides behavior to prove your point here? If you don’t, then you have to condemn every religion…because every religion has people who will kill, regardless of what texts you show them from the books they claim to follow.
That was a long and energetic post, but I’m going to try and take the main point here:
You’re saying that, regardless of what I say about the teachings of Islam, the actions of the followers prove that the religion commands killing, right?
If that’s the case, we can safely conclude that Christianity commands killing. There are Christians all over the world disobeying their religion right now and killing people. Latin America is a prime example, Africa is another, and Eric Rudolph is another right here in the USA.
This is very strange. You recognize that Christians kill people even though their religion forbids it; yet when Muslims kill people, you absolutely refuse to allow for the possibility that these “Muslims” disobey their religion.
Citing an article about some people in Pakistan who commit murder does not prove that Islam commanded them to do it. It doesn’t even prove that they think Islam commanded them to do it.
Do you have something besides behavior to prove your point here? If you don’t, then you have to condemn every religion…because every religion has people who will kill, regardless of what texts you show them from the books they claim to follow.
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