The Pope's words on Islam

[Rodrigo_Bivar]

browser1:

Where did I say Jesus said to spread Christianity through violence? However that did not stop the Christians from doing so. Nowadays, although violence isnt used, exploitation of a persons state is, where in parts of Asia, a poor person will be looked after if they are willing to convert to Christianity. How unfair.

That is why I asked you to show where Jesus said to spread Christianity through violence. You made 2 errors:

1. You committed the logical fallacy of tu quoque (or 2 wrongs make a right). Does the spread of Christianity through violence IN THE PAST mean that it is morally okay for Islam to similarly spread through violence? No. You cannot excuse one evil by pointing to another.
2. You missed the crucial difference between Christianity and Islam wrt to their propagation.

Nowhere did Jesus or his apostles, include Paul, preach the spread of Christianity through violence. Hence, any ‘Christian’ use of violence to spread Christianity must be a pervertion of the actual message of Jesus Christ.

In contrast, you will see not only from the words but also from the actions of Muhammad that it is prescribed to spread Islam by violence. Read surah 9 and the hadiths I posted and read up on the history of Islam.

Can you see the difference? I hope so.

Chau,
Rodrigo

 

[Podo2005]

Attitudes like these towards Muslims have helped convince me to leave Catholicism.

I’m sad when I read these threads. A quote from a medieval Byzantine Emperor about his rivals for power is being used to describe Islam again…it’s as if we’ve learned nothing from a violent, intolerant history.

Thank you, Cestusdei, for being one of many who has helped me to see that Catholicism is not the path to truth that I need to follow.

Its also sad that people can’t accept the truth about Islam. The Pope is great! Long live His Holiness Pope Benedict XVI

I’m sorry you feel that way about catholicism but for you to just leave a religion because you can’t handle the truth about a hateful and not peaceful religion is just sad. Islam is NOT a religion of peace but one of hatred and its been proven constantly throughout history even in TODAY’s world.

Podo

 

[The_Catholic]

Where did I say Jesus said to spread Christianity through violence? However that did not stop the Christians from doing so. Nowadays, although violence isnt used, exploitation of a persons state is, where in parts of Asia, a poor person will be looked after if they are willing to convert to Christianity. How unfair.

My question also TobyLue. Even the muslim who sometimes appear on this forum seem to have vanished.
Maybe they too are out protesting all over the world and threatening the Vatican.

Its nice to see how charitable you can be when people are not here to defend themselves.

No, the reason that the US is incapable of doing anything good in the middle east is that everytime Christians try to do anything good in the Middle East or in any Muslem nation, they are thanked with death, violence, and persecution.

The US is generally not welcome in middle eastern countries, and that is because very rarely do they ‘help’ for the sake of helping, usually its because they have an ulterior motive

Yup…there is that religion of peace again…Convert or Die!

This was a prominent feature in Christianity not so long ago

Your last comment, true, but the heart of the Church NEVER commended it. That is NO reason to say all of Christianity is bad, certainly not. As I say NOT all of Islam is bad. They’re fanatics on both sides. Perhaps Mohammad never converted by the sword, just as Christ never converted by the sword. But some of Mohammads followers and some of Christ’s followers, SOME, NOT ALL, have unfortunatly. But there is NO EXCUSE for what these Muslims are doing. It’s a slap in the face to God. Evil at it’s core!!!

 

[Rodrigo_Bivar]

Catholics may remember that Pope John Paul II issued a series of verbal and written apologies for the historical sins of the past done by Catholics against a whole range of peoples, including native peoples (on whom violence was used to spread Catholism). This is a recognition not only of past sins, but regret for past actions, but also recognition that such actions are not in accordance to the teachings of the church.

As such it is unlikely for us to ever see the Catholic Church use violence again to promote its cause.

I wonder if Muslims will ever do the same.

 

[kleary]

“Show me just what Muhammed brought that was new, and there you will find things only evil and inhuman, such as his command to spread by the sword the faith he preached.”

This was a quote used by Pope Benedict, you can read it all at www.zenit.org. It goes on to chastize Islam for it’s preoccupation with using violence, threats, and death to convert others. The Pope is not stupid. He knew what he was saying and how it would be received. He said it anyway. The Holy Father is a man of truth and courage. Viva il Papa!

Amen Brother! My pastor has been saying this from the pulpit for years as we also pray “For the conversion of the Muslims to Jesus Christ and His Catholic Church.”

I heard today that when the Pope travels to Turkey in his upcoming visit that he may be arrested, tried and beheaded.

“Peter has spoken through Benedict!” Viva il Papa!!!

Muslims - Convert NOW to Jesus and His Holy Catholic Church! If you make Peter a martyr your empire will fall just like Nero’s did!

 

[Contarini]

Well, the main problem is that he used a quote that condemns all of what Muhammad did, without disowning it or qualifying it except to say that it belonged to a Christian monarch. The language was not specific to a strain of Islam; it used a blanket condemnation of Islam by an emporer as a jumping off point for a discussion about violence, reason, and faith.

Exactly. And he was using this deliberately, I think, as a challenge to Muslims and secularists alike. Essentially he was saying: “here’s how we Christians understand the relation of faith to reason, and why we have the theological resources to repudiate religious violence.” He has never closed the door on the possibility that Islam can follow the same path. But he is not going to play the silly PC game of stating without evidence that all religious have equal potential for good and evil. This just isn’t true. And I’m not saying this simply to exalt Christianity. Buddhism, for instance, is far less violent historically than Christianity (though not as guiltless as some claim). More/less violent doesn’t necessarily translate into truer or falser. But in fact violence is more endemic to Islam than to Christianity, and Benedict is taking a stab at explaining why. If he’s wrong, he should be refuted with reasoned arguments.

Just imagine if he had used a quote from medieval times about “usurious Jews” as a jumping off point for talking about faith and economics.

If usurious Jews were really a major world problem, I’d cheer him on. I don’t think the two issues can be compared at all. Karen Armstrong tries to argue that Christian language about Islamic aggression was just a projection of Christian fear and guilt, like Christian legends about Jews killing children or whatever. But this is naive (at best) nonsense. Islamic aggression was and is very real. A far better analogy would be a Jewish person using a medieval Jewish complaint about Christian persecution as a launching point for talking about the Holocaust. And while I’d want to argue the point if the link were made too tight (as it often is), I wouldn’t be able to claim that such a reference was completely irrelevant or arose from sheer bigotry. And needless to say I wouldn’t think for a moment of burning synagogues or killing Jews as a way of refuting such an argument!

Edwin

Edwin

 

[Contarini]

Your last comment, true, but the heart of the Church NEVER commended it.

I don’t really know what that is supposed to mean, except that the Church is in some mysterious way not responsible. I don’t buy that any more than I buy the idea that Osama is not a “real Muslim.”

Edwin

 

[jburgherr]

Dont judge the religion by a minority of it fanatic followers

When the “Majority” of Islam starts to step forward and squash the nonsense that is being spewed by the “minority of fanatic followers”, their own brothers in faith, I’ll be a little less perturbed at Islam as a whole.

Until you, The Islamic Silent Majority, step up and take control of your ignorant faithful (ignorant does not mean stupid, ignorant is being uneducated in something), it will continued be hijacked by the ones who speak the loudest in the microphones and burn the most effigies. You, the Silent Islamic Majority, hold the future of how the rest of the world thinks about your religion and culture. You can decide if you wish to be looked upon as barbaric, or peaceful citizens of the world…You decide.

Don’t take too long, the rest of the world will be deciding too!

 

[Eden]

Perhaps Mohammad never converted by the sword, just as Christ never converted by the sword.

Are you not familiar with all of the murders by Mohammed himself and by his request that take place in the Quran?

 

[Deus_Vult]

Have any of you actually read Benedict’s speech that has suddenly been made so highly controversial? The day after September 11, at Bavaria’s University of Regensberg, Pope Benedict describes Christian belief in a God whose words and acts are bound by reason, truth and the law of non-contradiction. Benedict contrasts this with Islamic belief in a God not bound by anything including his own words. Benedict further contrasts Christian belief with that of secular humanists who see reason as being completely unbound of God.

In response, both Islamists and secularists have demanded the Pope apologize. Benedict’s speech is a work of enlightened genius. (You really have to read the whole speech to appreciate his genius so I have attached it see below) He has clearly laid out the differences between Christian culture and Islamic culture and the basis of the clash of civilizations we now experience as the War on Terror. His analysis also explains the underlying cause of the alliance between the western Left and the Islamist Right.

Islamist reaction focuses on one sentence in the speech. Reaching back to 1391, Benedict quotes Byzantine Emperor Manuel II: “Show me just what Mohammed brought that was new, and there you will find things only evil and inhuman, such as his command to spread by the sword the faith he preached.”

The Islamist reaction proves Manuel II’s 600-year-old point. The reaction is not one of anger but a calculated attempt to force our Pope to parrot the PC line on Islam. Since Islam need not be internally consistent and it is not bound by reason, it’s only objective can be to assert the power of a God who is so transcendent that He is not bound by anything. If man is created in God’s image then by extension Islamic man is not bound by anything. (This explains the predilection on the part of some Muslims to lie.) Islamists are not responding to any “offense” to their non-existent morality. They are asserting the only morality they have the will to power.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/shared/bsp/hi/pdfs/15_09_06_pope.pdf

 

[pro_universal]

If usurious Jews were really a major world problem, I’d cheer him on…Edwin

Well, in this case, you think the Pope’s statement should not be offensive becasue you agree that the complaint about Islam is correct. At least that’s what I read you as saying.

Regardless of that, it is obvious that Muslims do not believe that Muhammad only brought evil and violence, and that they would be offended by the suggestion that this is all that Muhammad brought.

They also, given that they are constantly under the threat of war by western powers or western funded powers (ie, Israel), do not agree that even today, their religion is more violent than Christianity.

But even if you disagree with their beliefs regarding Islam and the world today, the fact is, the Pope used a quote which didn’t really critique or identify a problem…it flat out said “Islam is evil.”

Maybe the usurious Jews example was wrong…perhaps a better comparison would be the Pope giving a speech condemning the war in Lebanon, using a medieval quote about child-murdering Jews. There is no question that Israel’s practices of warfare are dubious and that human rights abuses go on there…would you say that any Jews offended by such a speech would have no legs to stand on?

Of course, we can all agree that burning religious buildings and violence in response to offensive statements is wrong. But that doesn’t change the fact that the quote was obviously offensive, and that the Pope did not use it in a context that distanced his own opinion from the offensive statement.

 

[Anna_Elizabeth]

In response, both Islamists and secularists have demanded the Pope apologize. Benedict’s speech is a work of enlightened genius.

That’s right, Deus Vult!!!

He has managed to get the attention of a whole variety of people to whom his message is intended!.

The announcements leading up to the Bavarian trip always said, “and he’ll have a few other things to say,” a phrase I found strange right off. Now we know why. From his home turf he lectured northern European secular intellectuals (those that would leave any mention of Christianity out of a preamble to the EU constitution), the Orthodox on the importance of the Greek contribution to European Christianity and, of course, Islam on why there is no hope for peace with a religion that rejects reason.

He has reached more people world-wide with this “few other things to say,” than JPll ever did with Fides et Ratio.

Brilliant.

Anna

 

[sadie2723]

Well, in this case, you think the Pope’s statement should not be offensive becasue you agree that the complaint about Islam is correct. At least that’s what I read you as saying.

Regardless of that, it is obvious that Muslims do not believe that Muhammad only brought evil and violence, and that they would be offended by the suggestion that this is all that Muhammad brought.

They also, given that they are constantly under the threat of war by western powers or western funded powers (ie, Israel), do not agree that even today, their religion is more violent than Christianity.

But even if you disagree with their beliefs regarding Islam and the world today, the fact is, the Pope used a quote which didn’t really critique or identify a problem…it flat out said “Islam is evil.”

Maybe the usurious Jews example was wrong…perhaps a better comparison would be the Pope giving a speech condemning the war in Lebanon, using a medieval quote about child-murdering Jews. There is no question that Israel’s practices of warfare are dubious and that human rights abuses go on there…would you say that any Jews offended by such a speech would have no legs to stand on?

Of course, we can all agree that burning religious buildings and violence in response to offensive statements is wrong. But that doesn’t change the fact that the quote was obviously offensive, and that the Pope did not use it in a context that distanced his own opinion from the offensive statement.

Tell me, why is the truth so offensive to the Muslims? Papa Ben did not say anything that was not true about Islam. It is a violent religion that teaches violence, proclaims the importance of violence, and calls its members to kill. This is why we have a dead nun with gun shots to her back from these cowards…

If the truth hurts so much, these guys are going to have to find a new faith.

 

[Mickey]

But that doesn’t change the fact that the quote was obviously offensive, and that the Pope did not use it in a context that distanced his own opinion from the offensive statement.

I thought the context was quite clear that the quote was not the Pope’s personal opinion. However, knowing that these same people burned buildings and murdered human beings because of a cartoon, perhaps he should have realized that the context would not be understood in the muslim world.

 

[pro_universal]

I thought the context was quite clear that the quote was not the Pope’s personal opinion. However, knowing that these same people burned buildings and murdered human beings because of a cartoon, perhaps he should have realized that the context would not be understood in the muslim world.

The context only made it clear that the words were first spoken by someone else. The Pope used them as a jumping off point for talking about how Christianity is a rational faith. It’s pretty clear from the context that he did not disown the quote, or make any hint that he didn’t think it is an accurate description of Islam.

If that’s his impression of Islam and that’s the quote he uses to express it, it is obviously offensive.

 

[pro_universal]

sadie2723:

Tell me, why is the truth so offensive to the Muslims? Papa Ben did not say anything that was not true about Islam. It is a violent religion that teaches violence, proclaims the importance of violence, and calls its members to kill. This is why we have a dead nun with gun shots to her back from these cowards…

If the truth hurts so much, these guys are going to have to find a new faith.

Well, maybe you think it’s true. Muslims certainly do not think it is true that Muhammad only brought evil.

More puzzling is that you don’t understand how Muslims would find a “truth” such as this offensive. To say that Muhammad only brought evil is an insult to their religion (they think it’s a good religion that brought good to the world). So regardless of what the facts of the matter are, it’s a comment that anyone could’ve looked at in advance and said “yeah, this would offend muslims.”

Here’s another parallel: What if George Bush gave a speech on faith and morality, and included quotes by Jack Chick about the hundreds of child molestation scandals in the Church? I mean, it’s the truth that many Priests have been busted for raping children…does that mean we have no right to be offended by any speech that deals with the issue, no matter how blunt?

 

[sadie2723]

Well, maybe you think it’s true. Muslims certainly do not think it is true that Muhammad only brought evil.

More puzzling is that you don’t understand how Muslims would find a “truth” such as this offensive. To say that Muhammad only brought evil is an insult to their religion (they think it’s a good religion that brought good to the world). So regardless of what the facts of the matter are, it’s a comment that anyone could’ve looked at in advance and said “yeah, this would offend muslims.”

Here’s another parallel: What if George Bush gave a speech on faith and morality, and included quotes by Jack Chick about the hundreds of child molestation scandals in the Church? I mean, it’s the truth that many Priests have been busted for raping children…does that mean we have no right to be offended by any speech that deals with the issue, no matter how blunt?

The difference is that the quotes by Chick are wrong. The bottom line is that the Koran is very specific on what it calls the followers of Islam to do to non-believers…make war on them and kill them if they do not convert. Now, in my book, that is evil and violent, but it is also the truth and can be easily backed up by quotes taken from the Koran:

“Fight in the way of Allah.” 2:190, 2:244

Kill disbelievers wherever you find them. If they attack you, then kill them. Such is the reward of disbelievers. (But if they desist in their unbelief, then don’t kill them.) 2:191-2
**
So as long as they convert, life is good, and you can leave them alone…how nice.**

War is ordained by Allah, and all Muslims must be willing to fight, whether they like it or not. 2:216

The people cried out for mercy, but Allah killed them anyway. 20:15

Have no unbelieving friends. Kill the unbelievers wherever you find them. 4:89

If the unbelievers do not offer you peace, kill them wherever you find them. Against such you are given clear warrant. 4:91

Those who make war with Allah and his messenger will be killed or crucified, or have their hands and feet on alternate sides cut off, or will be expelled out of the land. That is how they will be treated in this world, and in the next they will have an awful doom. 5:33

Those that the Muslims killed were not really killed by them. It was Allah who did the killing. 8:17

Believers must fight for Allah. They must kill and be killed , and are bound to do so by the Torah, Gospel, and Quran. But Allah will reward them for it. 9:111

Oh yeah…I see where you guys get the peace stuff now…

So the bottom line is that the Koran teaches violence and asks those who follow Allah to carry out that violence and killing…it is right there in black and white for the whole world to read.

Now, the Pope quoted from an old document in an academic discussion. At no time did he say that “This is what the Catholic Church believes.” Had he done so, he would have been warranted, as it is clearly true via the teaching of the Koran, but he did not.

Still, the Muslims took to the street to carry out the will of Allah by burning churches, killing nuns, and opressing people…which is what Allah wants and what he tells them to do in the Koran. They even put out a death warrant on the Pope…how wonderful.

So, please, save that Religion of Peace garbage for the media and those who have not taken time to actually read the Koran.

Peace.

 

[pro_universal]

sadie,

Okay, we’re clear that you think Islam is bad.

Fine.

The point is, you know Muslims certainly don’t think it’s bad. So what’s so shocking to you that they are offended by people calling it evil?

Even true statements can be offensive. So while I’m not going to convince you that you are wrong about Islam, I think we can agree true statements can still be incredibly offensive.

For example: “Hundreds of children have been savagely raped by Catholic Priests.”

It’s a true statement. No one can doubt it. But if a major political figure used it in a speech on victim counseling would you be offended?

 

[Mickey]

The context only made it clear that the words were first spoken by someone else.

Well now, that’s obvious.

The Pope used them as a jumping off point for talking about how Christianity is a rational faith.

This would seem like more context.

It’s pretty clear from the context that he did not disown the quote, or make any hint that he didn’t think it is an accurate description of Islam…

How does one disown a quote? It is recorded in history–it cannot be disowned. Obviously the quote points to a fairly accurate description of Islam–the reaction affirms it.

If that’s his impression of Islam and that’s the quote he uses to express it, it is obviously offensive.

A reasonable muslim would not find it offensive if they truly read it in context.

 

[pro_universal]

Well now, that’s obvious.
This would seem like more context.
How does one disown a quote? It is recorded in history–it cannot be disowned. .

By saying “I don’t think this is the right view of Islam” or “the Emperor was wrong”

Using that quote and then going on to talk about the benefits of Christianity is offensive to Muslims. It’s basically saying “I think your religion is evil.”