The Power in Purgatory

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As I understand it, Catholics believe that in Purgatory one must expiate one’s own sins - the blood of Christ does not cover them in this and so they must suffer.

The standard Protestant response to this is to arch one’s eyebrow and say, “Oh, and was Christ’s sacrifice insufficient to cover all your sin? I see no basis for the concept of temporal sin - sin is sin, and His sacrifice is all the expiation for all sin I ever need.”

And the Catholic then says…
 
As I understand it, Catholics believe that in Purgatory one must expiate one’s own sins - the blood of Christ does not cover them in this and so they must suffer.

The standard Protestant response to this is to arch one’s eyebrow and say, “Oh, and was Christ’s sacrifice insufficient to cover all your sin? I see no basis for the concept of temporal sin - sin is sin, and His sacrifice is all the expiation for all sin I ever need.”

And the Catholic then says…
Colossians 1: - 21 And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled 22 In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight:

23 If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;

24Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up that which is behind of the afflictions of Christ in my flesh for his body’s sake, which is the church"
It seems that Paul is saying that our suffering has a redemptive quality.
 
As I understand it, Catholics believe that in Purgatory one must expiate one’s own sins - the blood of Christ does not cover them in this and so they must suffer.

The standard Protestant response to this is to arch one’s eyebrow and say, “Oh, and was Christ’s sacrifice insufficient to cover all your sin? I see no basis for the concept of temporal sin - sin is sin, and His sacrifice is all the expiation for all sin I ever need.”

And the Catholic then says…
The reality is that we do sin even after becoming members of the Church. So either we believe that these sins do not matter, or we believe that they condemn us, or we believe that they do damage which can be repaired. If things are not put right in this life, then when?
 
I do not think you understand the Catholic position.

Christ’s death and resurrection were and are ‘sufficient’ to forgive any and all sins.

But the Catholic position is not, and never was, that Christ’s death and resurrection were NOT sufficient, so that’s a strawman.

The Catholic position is that, as with everything else salvific, our cooperation is required. Christ gives us sufficient grace for salvation–every one of us–but we must cooperate with that grace. The man (or woman) who persists in sin is not ‘saved in spite of himself’.

If Christ’s death and resurrection worked to cover sin ‘sufficiently’ enough that nothing else were needed, then the worst unrepentant axe murderer would enter heaven. After all, his sins were ‘forgiven’, weren’t they?

But, you’ll say, cooperation is assumed. A simple ‘confession with the mouth’ is all that is needed. Thus, that same axe murderer, should he profess Christ as Lord, is assumed then to ‘cooperate’ and thus walk into heaven just as freely as the person he murdered, should that person likewise have ‘confessed with the mouth.’

But. . .I recall passages from Matthew where Jesus speaks of the judgment, where people are separated into ‘sheep’ and ‘goats’. Now, none of these are told, “did you confess me with your mouth? Advance into heaven!” No, rather they are told, “I was hungry and you fed me” or "I was hungry, and you did not feed me’.

Actions seem to matter a great deal more than words. Because many of these people never actually thought that they were doing anything for CHRIST Himself. “Confessing Him with the mouth” was not even on the list. “Doing unto others” was.

The action of killing a person is a great evil. Even when the action is forgiven, the effect of the killing remains. The victim’s life cut short, the trauma to the family members, the effects on thousands of lives throughout time. . .these remain. Justice demands that this be recognized. In spite of forgiveness, restitution must be made.

Since forgiveness (if confessed sincerely) we know will be given, it stands to reason that there must be some way of making restitution for the ‘effects’ of mortal sins. This is justice; the mercy of course is that we are forgiven in the first place.

Purgatory is justice. No one is ever sent to HELL from Purgatory. Only those ‘forgiven’ who yet have to restore the temporal effects from their sins and can no longer do so on earth enter purgatory. We know from scripture that nothing evil can enter heaven. The residual effects of the evil keep a person from heaven. He must be ‘saved, as though through fire’ as Scripture tells us. It is a cooperative effort with Christ, made possibly ONLY through His mercy, acknowledging the forgiveness that makes Purgatory POSSIBLE.
 
As I understand it, Catholics believe that in Purgatory one must expiate one’s own sins - the blood of Christ does not cover them in this and so they must suffer.
The full application of the blood of Christ for the forgiveness of all the eternal and temporal punishment of Original Sin and all past actual sins is accomplished in this life in a baptism of water.

A partial application of the blood of Christ for the forgiveness of the eternal punishment of past post-baptismal sins is accomplished in Confession. However, the temporal punishment of these past post-baptismal sins may remain after Confession. This remaining temporal punishment may be forgiven in this life through works of penance (prayer, fasting, almsgiving, etc.) or it will be forgiven in the next life in Purgatory by an application of the blood of Christ in a baptism of fire.
 
It seems that Paul is saying that our suffering has a redemptive quality.
Agreed. But what does that have to do with Purgatory? Is purgatory about redemption or expiation?

To me, forgiveness includes a release of the “temporal penalty.”

You seem to be saying that this is not covered by the cross, but we must pay for this ourselves. If that is the case, who would ever get out of Purgatory?
 
The reality is that we do sin even after becoming members of the Church. So either we believe that these sins do not matter, or we believe that they condemn us, or we believe that they do damage which can be repaired. If things are not put right in this life, then when?
We agree that sins matter.

We agree that there is no condemnation for those in Christ (Romans 8:1), so sin does not condemn us.

We agree that sins do damage which can be repaired. When we die (as a result of the fall, and thus a consequence of sin), we are raised from the dead: this is a restitution empowered by Christ,not by us. His power, not ours, is at work in our redemption. He put all things to right by His sacrifice. So how can we put anything to right by an expiative suffering?

Some things are never put to right on earth. Some suffer the penalty of their sin, which is eternal death (hell). I have trouble with the concept of a penalty for sin short of eternal death. To me forgiveness is all or none, not a “tabulation on the side”, a bill I will be presented with that I must pay.

I can see we need to be cleaned up before we enter heaven. If I die at 102 in frail health, I would appreciate being restored to about 18 years of age, not simply revived as a 102 year old with frail health. But paying for my sins? Isn’t that what Jesus did?
 
I do not think you understand the Catholic position.
.
agreed. I am trying to understand it.
Purgatory is justice. No one is ever sent to HELL from Purgatory. Only those ‘forgiven’ who yet have to restore the temporal effects from their sins and can no longer do so on earth enter purgatory. We know from scripture that nothing evil can enter heaven. The residual effects of the evil keep a person from heaven. He must be ‘saved, as though through fire’ as Scripture tells us. It is a cooperative effort with Christ, made possibly ONLY through His mercy, acknowledging the forgiveness that makes Purgatory POSSIBLE.
I’m not sure what cooperation has to do with this thread.

Nothing evil can enter heaven - agreed.

Residual effects - seems that death and resurrection will take care of that.

“saved, as through fire” - doesn’t that apply to works, not to a person?
 
If someone could show me that what brings someone out of Purgatory is the application of Christ’s finished work on the cross, and nothing else, I would be much happier about this.
 
As I understand it, Catholics believe that in Purgatory one must expiate one’s own sins - the blood of Christ does not cover them in this and so they must suffer.
The standard Protestant response to this is to arch one’s eyebrow and say, “Oh, and was Christ’s sacrifice insufficient to cover all your sin? I see no basis for the concept of temporal sin - sin is sin, and His sacrifice is all the expiation for all sin I ever need.”

And the Catholic then says…
I am really confussed by the part bold.

But Jesus died on the cross to bridge Adam and Eves hole that separated us from God. Adam and Eve before the fall were able to walk and talk with God in a way we cannot do right now. God missed this interaction with us so He sent His only son, the only one who could purely be sacrificed for us, since we are now contaminated with original sin, and therefor can not satisfy this sacrifice.

Jesus’ sacrifice did exactly what it was meant to do, it opened up to us what was once closed the gates of heaven. Now we as Christian with our free will must now choose to not sin, but being the humans we are we do fall often. We can through the sacraments that Jesus set up for us go to confession and repent but we still need to have our souls clean. Purgatory does this for us. Also Purgatory is not something that we do for ourselves, but something that our wonderful God has done for us, so that we could never be lost to Him.

Isn’t God wonderful. 👍

I will also add what I always tell my kids, you might not believe in it right now but one day you will have to come to terms with it.😉
 
If someone could show me that what brings someone out of Purgatory is the application of Christ’s finished work on the cross, and nothing else, I would be much happier about this.
What brings us out of Purgatory is when our souls have been cleaned and when we are in the right state to be with God forever.

But,yes, Our Lord’s work on the cross does bring us into heaven, because if He had not done this for us Heaven would not have been open for us.

When I was explaining this to my 6 year old, I told him that God gave us a beautiful dress to wear. We only have this one dress to wear our whole lives. Now when God decides to call us to Him would you want Him to see how dirty you have gotten the dress? What makes our dress dirty, sin. So before we are to go to Him we will have to have our dress cleaned. We get our dress cleaned in Purgatory.
 
What brings us out of Purgatory is when our souls have been cleaned and when we are in the right state to be with God forever.

But,yes, Our Lord’s work on the cross does bring us into heaven, because if He had not done this for us Heaven would not have been open for us.

When I was explaining this to my 6 year old, I told him that God gave us a beautiful dress to wear. We only have this one dress to wear our whole lives. Now when God decides to call us to Him would you want Him to see how dirty you have gotten the dress? What makes our dress dirty, sin. So before we are to go to Him we will have to have our dress cleaned. We get our dress cleaned in Purgatory.
But what powers the cleaning? Is it our action or the completed work of Christ?
 
But what powers the cleaning? Is it our action or the completed work of Christ?
Well like I stated before, it is not our actions that cleans but Gods alone. He does this for us.

From my previous post
Also Purgatory is not something that we do for ourselves, but something that our wonderful God has done for us, so that we could never be lost to Him
 
I saw on another post someone posing a variation of the following question to her Baptist SIL, which I’ll now ask you, Truthstalker (my apologies to the person from whom I’m shamelessly plagiarizing)

People who have accepted Christ, still commit sins like gossiping, white lies, causal selfishness, correct (I know I sure do)?

If those things are sinful, but a part of their personality they can’t seem to shake on earth, how are they changed when they enter heaven? Since nothing unclean can be in the Presence, how do those habits we try so hard to break in life get removed in the afterlife?

You answer interests me, because it might help you understand Purgatory a little better.
 
As I understand it, Catholics believe that in Purgatory one must expiate one’s own sins - the blood of Christ does not cover them in this and so they must suffer.

The standard Protestant response to this is to arch one’s eyebrow and say, “Oh, and was Christ’s sacrifice insufficient to cover all your sin? I see no basis for the concept of temporal sin - sin is sin, and His sacrifice is all the expiation for all sin I ever need.”

And the Catholic then says…
. . . . as I’ve said so many times. . . . if there is no purgatory and God willing I make it to heaven, do you mean to tell me I’ll be rubbing elbows with the likes of Billy Graham as soon as I breathe my last? It makes no sense that I’m in that easily.

By the way, no Protestant on this forum has ever answered this for me.

If you start proof texting, I might do a little scripture into the mix myself, with the help of John Martignoni, that is.

Common sense answers are more than welcome.
 
Well like I stated before, it is not our actions that cleans but Gods alone. He does this for us.

From my previous post
Where is this in the Catechism or other official Church source?
 
I saw on another post someone posing a variation of the following question to her Baptist SIL, which I’ll now ask you, Truthstalker (my apologies to the person from whom I’m shamelessly plagiarizing)

People who have accepted Christ, still commit sins like gossiping, white lies, causal selfishness, correct (I know I sure do)?

If those things are sinful, but a part of their personality they can’t seem to shake on earth, how are they changed when they enter heaven? Since nothing unclean can be in the Presence, how do those habits we try so hard to break in life get removed in the afterlife?

You answer interests me, because it might help you understand Purgatory a little better.
I see a difference between cleansing and expiation. In the one, you are cleansed. In the other, you pay back a debt owed.

In glorification we are perfected: this would include all of this. It seems to me verses related to paying back a debt owed are used to explain Purgatory, such as Matthew 5:26. I was taught that Jesus paid our debt in full - we need not pay anything, and dare not add anything to His completed work on our own. “My grace is sufficient for thee.”
 
. . . . as I’ve said so many times. . . . if there is no purgatory and God willing I make it to heaven, do you mean to tell me I’ll be rubbing elbows with the likes of Billy Graham as soon as I breathe my last? It makes no sense that I’m in that easily.

By the way, no Protestant on this forum has ever answered this for me.

If you start proof texting, I might do a little scripture into the mix myself, with the help of John Martignoni, that is.

Common sense answers are more than welcome.
It makes perfect sense that we are in that easily. Our separation from God is so vast that the difference in our sins is so small in comparison that we are all about equally sinful - and forgiven. We are saved not by our own work but by the grace of God. We are not saved because we are good but because God is good. Whatever good we do is not us but is God working in us. We can take no credit and cannot compare ourselves to someone else, as God alone is the judge. We all start at different places and life is a different challenge for each of us - you may be way ahead of Mother Theresa on sanctity, if you started way behind her and covered far more distance with more effort. Maybe. You don’t know.

I abhor proof-texting. This often turns into a contest of who can fire the most verses at the other person, and who can claim the loudest that the other person is taking something out of context. I would rather have a decent conversation.
 
Where is this in the Catechism or other official Church source?
From the CCC
1030
All who die in God’s grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven.
1031
The Church gives the name Purgatory to this final purification of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned.606 The Church formulated her doctrine of faith on Purgatory especially at the Councils of Florence and Trent. The tradition of the Church, by reference to certain texts of Scripture, speaks of a cleansing fire:607
As for certain lesser faults, we must believe that, before the Final Judgment, there is a purifying fire. He who is truth says that whoever utters blasphemy against the Holy Spirit will be pardoned neither in this age nor in the age to come. From this sentence we understand that certain offenses can be forgiven in this age, but certain others in the age to come.608
Here is the online study of the CCC

usccb.org/catechism/text/pt1sect2chpt3art12.htm

You might want to give it a look because there is a lot of references from the CCC as well as the bible.

Good luck
 
Is it official Catholic teaching that one expiates one’s sins in Purgatory?

Maybe this helps:

[ the confessor imposes must take into account the penitent’s personal situation and must seek his spiritual good. It must correspond as far as possible with the gravity and nature of the sins committed. It can consist of prayer, an offering, works of mercy, service of neighbor, voluntary self-denial, sacrifices, and above all the patient acceptance of the cross we must bear. Such penances help configure us to Christ, who alone expiated our sins once for all. They allow us to become co-heirs with the risen Christ, “provided we suffer with him.”

http://www.kofc.org/publications/ci...&subSecNum=2&headernum=0&ParNum=827&ParType=a
**Part 2, Section 2, Chapter 2, Article 4, SubSection 7, Heading 3
[

1459 Many sins wrong our neighbor. One must do what is possible in order to repair the harm (e.g., return stolen goods, restore the reputation of someone slandered, pay compensation for injuries). Simple justice requires as much. But sin also injures and weakens the sinner himself, as well as his relationships with God and neighbor. Absolution takes away sin, but it does not remedy all the disorders sin has caused.](http://www.kofc.org/publications/ci...&subSecNum=2&headernum=0&ParNum=827&ParType=a)Raised up from sin, the sinner must still recover his full spiritual health by doing something more to make amends for the sin: he must “make satisfaction for” or “expiate” his sins. This satisfaction is also called “penance.”
Part 2, Section 2, Chapter 2, Article 4, SubSection 7, Heading 3 [

1460 The penance](http://www.kofc.org/publications/ci...&subSecNum=2&headernum=0&ParNum=827&ParType=a)[/INDENT]](http://www.kofc.org/publications/ci...&subSecNum=2&headernum=0&ParNum=827&ParType=a)

Is what happens in satisfaction the same thing as happens in Purgatory? A “setting to rights” rather than a “punishment for sins”?
 
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