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Ani_Ibi
Guest
What is your point?
You can’t prove this. You’re just hoping it will stick.
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apophasis
Guest
The fact that the doctrine of purgatory completely contradicts what Scripture reveals God Himself accomplished, once for all, through the cross of Christ in regards to sin (2 Cor. 5:21); and the fact that such a place or function exists nowhere in divine revelation (such a function would have to be divinely revealed); the whole notion of purgatory simply has no legs on which to stand.
My point? It is a doctrine borne out of unbelief. Unbelief in what God Himself has revealed in His written Word regarding His power to “put away sin,” once for all, through the sacrifice of His Son (even the sins of men of faith like king David, even the thief). The GRACE of God which men enter into this side of the cross through faith in Christ alone (Rom. 5:1-2). Faith that trusts in the Word of God, not men.
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Nita
Guest
.Heb. 9:26 "Otherwise, He would have needed to suffer often since the foundation of the world; but now once at the consummation of the ages He has been manifested to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself.
I’m not disputing what you say above, at least what I think you’re saying. (I deleted the part I didn’t agree with.) We are cleansed of our sin at Baptism. For sins committed after that, we are cleansed when we repent and confess them.
I don’t think you understand what “temporal punishment due for sin” means in Catholic theology. Or how that differs from the need to be purged of unrepented venial sin after death.
I’m sure you must see the need to have sinful thoughts and desires removed (purged) before we can enter heaven. After all, it wouldn’t be very joyful (heaven-ly, so to speak) if, say, we still experienced irritation concerning a certain person and then found him next to us in heaven!! (Just one of many examples that could be given.) Maybe the only difference between our understandings is that you think God removes these imperfections in a miraculous, painless instant after death; - whereas Catholicism teaches that we experience anguish in being “detached” from these sins.
There are only two other alternatives that I can see:
first, that we all have to be absolutely perfect before we die in order to enter heaven; or
second, that heaven is going to be filled with believers who are still in an unperfected state - still squabbling, still fighting, (or if prevented from actually doing those things, still filled with the emotions which provoke such acts), etc.
Could you explain to us your belief about what happens after death to those of us who are not yet perfect, yet not deserving to be condemned to hell?
Nita
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Truthstalker
Guest
I think the broken window example pertains. Case 1: I break my neighbor’s window. I confess my negligence, ask for forgiveness, offer to pay for the repair, pay it. Case 2: I break my neighbor’s window. I forget about it. What happens? The guilt of sin is covered by the blood of Christ, but I still owe my neighbor the debt. Against God only have I sinned, said David. So we really owe the debt to God. In this case He may just forgive it. But I still have the tendency to break windows. God doesn’t want windows broken in heaven, so in Purgatory He, by His grace, changes me so I no longer have this tendency.
I don’t want this thread turned into an argument as to whether Purgatory exists. That is off-topic and has been discussed before.
I don’t want this thread turned into an argument as to whether Purgatory exists. That is off-topic and has been discussed before.
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Techno2000
Guest
One can do their Purgatory here now in this live, just by the Pain and suffering you had to go though in life. The more Pain and suffering you went though in this life the shorter time you will have to spend in Purgatory.
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Todd_Easton
Guest
St. Thomas Aquinas says:
[T]hose which are in purgatory have a sorrow for their sins, that is quickened by grace; yet it is not meritorious, for they are not in the state of meriting. … The pain which the souls suffer in purgatory, cannot, properly speaking, be called satisfaction, because satisfaction demands a meritorious work… ( Question 4, Article 3Summa Theologica, Supplement to the Third Part,)
If the suffering of those in Purgatory is not meritorious, since they are beyond meriting as Aquinas says above, it seems obvious that the meritorious work that provides the proper satsifaction for the sins of those in Purgatory is the Passion of Christ. For this reason the glory for their purgation all goes to Christ.
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Truthstalker
Guest
Apophasis,
If what powers the cleansing of a soul in Purgatory is Christ’s finished work on the cross, what problem do you still have with Purgatory?
If what powers the cleansing of a soul in Purgatory is Christ’s finished work on the cross, what problem do you still have with Purgatory?
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exiled
Guest
Apart from Christ’s Cross, no time in Purgatory would ever do to expiate the multitude of sins any one of us is guilty of.
That said, perhaps if you considered us as children who want to do something to make things right, it might go down a little more smoothly.
Perhaps we stand before Him at judgement ask to please be excused for a bit while we prepare ourselves.
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Truthstalker
Guest
Will no Protestants take on the question in Posty 48??
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Truthstalker
Guest
Bump…
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ncgolf
Guest
I think the Power you are describing is Mercy … at death we finally get to see ourselves for what we really are … unclouded by time or memory but Christ allows us to see our true selves. We can see what we truly deserve but by His Mercy we also understand that the eternal punishment we should get is not meted out. IMHO then purgatory can be viewed in light of God’s Mercy rather than a punishment which Hell is. It is Mercy then that drives or allows purgatory and God’s Mercy that works on those in purgatory. So purgatory provides one a place where the “last penny can be paid” and perhaps more importantly purges from us from any attachment to sin … that final inability for us to put God rather than ourselves first.
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Truthstalker
Guest
Christ then is with the sinner in Purgatory and one could perhaps say that it is the state of increasingly beholding the beatific vision, or perhaps increasingly being able to behold the beatific vision as every residue of sin is stripped away and we become more and more intimate with God.
Purgation then is a process rather than a location.
Purgation then is a process rather than a location.
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ncgolf
Guest
I don’t know if Chirst is with the sinner or not but the soul in purgatory becomes more ready for the beatific vision, ready for all of what Christ is. I think purgatory is a place (outside of heaven) that the purgation needed by some occurs. I also think the soul knows, even though this process may be painful, is necessary and would not trade his/her position for anyone’s here on earth.
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Truthstalker
Guest
Will no Protestants take on the question in Posty 48??
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Michael_G
Guest
In arriving at any great truth or doctrine as given in Scripture it is **absolutely necessary to take all **Scripture pertaining to a given truth or doctrine into account…
Scripture teaches us that Christs passion and death is for the forgivness of sins and our redemption: Eph 1:7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace; /Rom 5:11 And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement. But does this remove any responsibility on our part to make amends/restitution, does this remove God’s justice towards us? Does this preclude any personal expiation for our sins. If that were true than suffering which is due to sin would no longer occur in the world in which we live. No, it does not. One must understand that Scripture teaches that there are two major consequences of sin. One is the Spiritual/Eternal Consequences of Sin. This is the death of the Soul Eternal damnation. The Blood Atonement on the Cross is complete and has removed this consequence as an absolutely necessary consequence of sin. The second consequence of sin is the Temporal/material consequence of Sin. Both God’s justice an mercy requires satifaction for sin. Hence the necessity of restituion, such as when someone steals.
Example of the the nature of Temporal and Eternal consequences to sin in the world in which we live:
If I were to take an innocent life, an objectively gravely sinful matter (one of the three conditions for mortal sin), under the subjective conditions of mortal sin (full knowledge, full consent of the will), and died unrepentant, I would go to Hell. My going to Hell would be the eternal consequence of my sin.
The temporal consequences of that sin range from the death of the innocent person; the suffering of my family who endured the shame and ramifications of my arrest and incarceration or enduring capital punishment; the effects of the loss of the innocent person on the family of the innocent person; the costs to the community of the loss of the innocent person; the costs to the community of litigation; the spiritual effects on the weaker members of the community whose view of the world and God’s Justice and Mercy could be affected knowing that innocent life can be taken so easily; the tarnishing of the image of the Body of Christ and the bringing of scandal upon the Church; the loss of grace in my soul and the predisposition to sin again as sin can become habitual.
There is no question that Christ passion and Death is for our redemption,-- Christs work of our redemption is accomplished. It is finished. But the application of that redemptive work of Christ by the Holy Spirit is another matter.
Augustine states: " The temporal effects of repented sins that are not paid for in life through the effects of natural law, personal penance, penance given by the priest at Confession, or mystical penances given to me by God, are paid for in Purgatory." St. Augustine, in City of God (A.D. 419),
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clmowry
Guest
THE CATECHISM OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH
III. THE FINAL PURIFICATION, OR PURGATORY
1030 All who die in God’s grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven.
1031 The Church gives the name Purgatory to this final purification of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned.
The Church formulated her doctrine of faith on Purgatory especially at the Councils of Florence and Trent. The tradition of the Church, by reference to certain texts of Scripture,
speaks of a cleansing fire:
As for certain lesser faults, we must believe that, before the
Final Judgment, there is a purifying fire. He who is truth says
that whoever utters blasphemy against the Holy Spirit will
be pardoned neither in this age nor in the age to come. From
this sentence we understand that certain offenses can be
forgiven in this age, but certain others in the age to come.
1032 This teaching is also based on the practice of prayer for the dead, already mentioned in Sacred Scripture: “Therefore [Judas Maccabeus] made atonement for the dead, that they might be delivered from their sin.” From the beginning the Church has honored the memory of the dead and offered prayers in suffrage for them, above all the Eucharistic sacrifice, so that, thus purified, they may attain the beatific vision of God. The Church also commends almsgiving, indulgences, and works of penance undertaken on behalf of the dead:
Let us help and commemorate them. If Job’s sons were
purified by their father’s sacrifice, why would we doubt that
our offerings for the dead bring them some consolation? Let
us not hesitate to help those who have died and to offer our
prayers for them.
III. THE FINAL PURIFICATION, OR PURGATORY
1030 All who die in God’s grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven.
1031 The Church gives the name Purgatory to this final purification of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned.
The Church formulated her doctrine of faith on Purgatory especially at the Councils of Florence and Trent. The tradition of the Church, by reference to certain texts of Scripture,
speaks of a cleansing fire:
As for certain lesser faults, we must believe that, before the
Final Judgment, there is a purifying fire. He who is truth says
that whoever utters blasphemy against the Holy Spirit will
be pardoned neither in this age nor in the age to come. From
this sentence we understand that certain offenses can be
forgiven in this age, but certain others in the age to come.
1032 This teaching is also based on the practice of prayer for the dead, already mentioned in Sacred Scripture: “Therefore [Judas Maccabeus] made atonement for the dead, that they might be delivered from their sin.” From the beginning the Church has honored the memory of the dead and offered prayers in suffrage for them, above all the Eucharistic sacrifice, so that, thus purified, they may attain the beatific vision of God. The Church also commends almsgiving, indulgences, and works of penance undertaken on behalf of the dead:
Let us help and commemorate them. If Job’s sons were
purified by their father’s sacrifice, why would we doubt that
our offerings for the dead bring them some consolation? Let
us not hesitate to help those who have died and to offer our
prayers for them.
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clmowry
Guest
Bingo! It’s a process not a place.
I don’t believe the Church has ever defined “the process” it simply maintains that “some process” takes place.
(So I’m not sure Christ will be there with us, but I sure like the thought.)
I think it’s just more comprehensible for some folks if they think of it as a place where you spend some amount of time. It’s easier to understand how our prayers might help decrease that time for the people there.
Chuck
I don’t believe the Church has ever defined “the process” it simply maintains that “some process” takes place.
(So I’m not sure Christ will be there with us, but I sure like the thought.)
I think it’s just more comprehensible for some folks if they think of it as a place where you spend some amount of time. It’s easier to understand how our prayers might help decrease that time for the people there.
Chuck
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Semper_Fi_1
Guest
Actually, if you are in Purgatory the Blood of Christ has already covered you and you are on your way into Heaven. Only future Saints enter Purgatory.
The standard Catholic reply should be a resounding “YES!” We cannot take away our own sin.
Sin is sin, yes, but it has temporal effects to which we must be cleansed. Purgatory goes back to the Scriptural teaching that “nothing unclean can enter Heaven”. When we enter Purgatory we’re merely taking a shower to get rid of the dirt from a corrupt and fallen world to meet Him.
Amen!
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sodak
Guest
Since marriage is used so often as a metaphor (or is it allegory?) for our relationship with God in Heaven, permit me a short diversion - marriage! As anyone who has ever been married long can attest to, marriage involves a certain amount of pain from both people, learning to share more deeply, give up certain things for each other, etc. It is certainly worth the effort, but it is certainly NOT effortless.
Suppose you knew 2 elderly couples, both couples married for a long time and very much in love, pretty much at the same place in their relationship. Suppose couple A were madly in love with each other since early teens, loved each other deeply, and were always very committed to each other. Suppose couple B were very selfish and worldly in their younger years, but as babies and responsibilities came, reluctantly settled down to a more mature relationship.
Would it make sense that couple B, along with more maturing to do, also went through more pain early in their marriage?
Why should our coming together with God be any different? There are certainly some saintly people that are either there, or almost there, and their adjustment might be minimal. There are others who are not nearly there, but need a little more time having the dross removed by purifying fire. All souls in Purgatory are on their way, and whether they spend a day or a million days, can rejoice in the fact that they will eventually be where they long to be, as God doesn’t ever break his promises.
Suppose you knew 2 elderly couples, both couples married for a long time and very much in love, pretty much at the same place in their relationship. Suppose couple A were madly in love with each other since early teens, loved each other deeply, and were always very committed to each other. Suppose couple B were very selfish and worldly in their younger years, but as babies and responsibilities came, reluctantly settled down to a more mature relationship.
Would it make sense that couple B, along with more maturing to do, also went through more pain early in their marriage?
Why should our coming together with God be any different? There are certainly some saintly people that are either there, or almost there, and their adjustment might be minimal. There are others who are not nearly there, but need a little more time having the dross removed by purifying fire. All souls in Purgatory are on their way, and whether they spend a day or a million days, can rejoice in the fact that they will eventually be where they long to be, as God doesn’t ever break his promises.
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