The power of Latin and other Church languages

[Maximian]

It’s fair to ask Famulus on what authority they are basing such claims.

Yes, it is fair to ask what authority. It is not fair to say “Where in the Bible” because the Church recognises two sources of authority: first, the authority of Tradition, on which the definition of the Bible depends, and second, the Bible itself.

 

[OddBird]

To be fair, @adamhovey1988 didn’t just say “Show me in the Bible…”. He said :

Show me in the Bible, the catechism, or Church documents where it says that.

That’s not really Sola Scriptura, is it ?

I think the point he was making is that it is its (holy) use by the Church which makes Latin holy, not the other way round.

 

[OrbisNonSufficit]

going back to latin seems like everything v2 stood for is a slap in the face

V2 wasn’t even mainly about Latin… Liturgical Reform wasn’t what “everything V2 stood for” by far. And even that Liturgical reform was intended to keep Latin.

What strikes me is this:

ive studied v2

And yet you don’t know what it stood for.

If Latin makes anything more Holy it is that we associate language with Holiness which sure can help. It takes work to pray in Latin and we pray original prayers. It is said bilingual people have two personalities for each language and perhaps people who associate Latin with prayers and Church also adopt mindset of that when they switch to Latin. But it is important to know that Latin started as a vernacular and also that it’s use is prevalent as it has advantage of being a dead language.

 

[po18guy]

They have holy uses and when used in a manner befitting holiness, the devil also hates them.

 

[OraLabora]

Why? Surely you don’t subscribe to the principle “sola scriptura?”

Where do you get that from? He said Bible as well as the Catechism and Church documents. The pillars of Church teaching are Scripture and Apostolic Tradition. His statement is completely consistent with this as the Catechism and Church documents are ordinary means of conveying her doctrines based both on Scripture and Apostolic Tradition.

 

[Shakuhachi]

And the Languge of the Roman Empire, though with different pronunciation. But I think it does have a power. When I pray the Psalm I feel more solidarity with the many centuries of prayer. But that is just my feeling. Even vernacular is sacred when used to praise God.

 

[OldCAFMember]

It always amazes me to see the amount of hostility that is shown to Latin. Here is St. John XXIII’s teaching on Latin: Veterum Sapientia - Papal Encyclicals

 

[Shakuhachi]

So maybe “venerable” is a better description. But the truth is at this point, that Latin is inaccessible to most. Sure we can pick up on a few phrases at Mass. But reading a papal document or writings of the Fathers is beyond most of us. With all my years and efforts I still need help with the Psalms and those are pretty simple. Unless we are professional academics I just dont see Latin being feasible.

 

[adamhovey1988]

And you can make that same argument for Syriac and Greek, which have always been used by the Church as liturgical languages. Even Rome used Greek for a while, and it was considered an “innovation” when Latin was introduced. I also think that putting too much emphasis on Latin is really offensive to Eastern Christians. Again, not saying Latin isn’t important, it totally is, but so are Syriac and Greek.

 

[MagdalenaRita]

It always amazes me to see the amount of hostility that is shown to Latin. Here is St. John XXIII’s teaching on Latin: https://www.papalencyclicals.net/john23/j23veterum.htm

Thank you for that link. Yes, I agree, the hostility toward Latin is what bothers me. According to Bishop Athanasius Schneider religions have always had what was considered a “sacred language”. When the world is hostile to it, it makes me stop and think and draw closer.

Also a couple quotes from a Vatican document http://www.vatican.va/news_services/liturgy/details/ns_lit_doc_20110209_lingua_en.html

Christine Mohrmann, the great historian of the Latin of Christians, affirms that "sacred language" used in divine worship is a specific way of “organizing” the religious experience.

_

The use of a sacred language in the liturgical celebration is part of what St. Thomas Aquinas in the Summa Theologiae calls the "solemnitas

_

Sacred language, being the means of expression not only of individuals, but rather of a community that follows its traditions, is conservative: it maintains the archaic linguistic forms with tenacity.

_

However, the conciliar fathers did not imagine that the sacred language of the Western Church would be totally replaced by the vernacular

 

[Shasta-Rose]

In our days I would say that Greek is the most valuable for Scripture study.

My priest agrees. He was saying that Latin is somewhat ambivalent. A statement may be able to be interpreted in one of several different ways. He was giving me examples of this, which went over my head, since I have not much Latin. Then he gave examples of how a statement could be read backward and it could mean the same thing. You really have to know the context of a Latin sentence to interpret it correctly.

Then he gave some similar examples of Greek (also over my head) and said it was a much more exact language and, therefore, more valuable for scripture study.

I had sat down with our priest to clear up a few things about the faith and we ended up having a talk about languages. Well, HE talked about languages while I sat somewhat spellbound at the extent of his knowledge!

 

[enoch1]

yes i know what v2 stood for,ive read hte documents,and latin is to be replaced by the vernacular …

 

[CilladeRoma]

The vernacular was never meant to totally replace Latin in the Latin rite.
Having Mass in the vernacular is a great gift, but so it uniting with the “voice of the Church” when the Propers are sung or recited in Latin.
In fact, VII, assumed that all in the Latin rite would retain the use of some Latin in the Mass, especially the Propers.

That said, the whole idea of a “holy language” is ridiculous. God has absolutely no need for the verbal expressions we humans call words, He knows what we need before we do and He knows our inner most hearts. Words are only necessary for us.

 

[TMC]

Latin has no “power,” at least no more than any other language. Thinking of Latin in that way drifts dangerously close to magical thinking, in my opinion. Prayer is not a magic trick that works better if you use special words.

 

[adamhovey1988]

I don’t have to, the Catholic Church uses the Bible as a binding tradition, where in the world did you see me say that only scripture is authoritative? I said where in the catechism, in scripture, or in Church documents? Does that sound like Sola scriptura to you? I’m not sure where you could have possibly gotten the idea that I support the idea of Sola scriptura, but Catholics do support using the Bible as a resource, otherwise we would not have Mass in the form it is in today. You’ve not only misrepresented my arguments, you’re making it seem like I’m arguing from a position I never had to begin with, nor did I ever state.

 

[adamhovey1988]

hostility that is shown to Latin

Pointing out that there are in fact other liturgical languages, some of which are of more ancient Authority, is not hostility. It might surprise you to know, that I actually do sometimes go to Latin Mass. I however, much prefer the Byzantine Divine Liturgy, especially in Arabic , and there’s nothing wrong with either one.

 

[adamhovey1988]

Yeah, I am confused too

 

[phil19034]

And you can make that same argument for Syriac and Greek, which have always been used by the Church as liturgical languages. Even Rome used Greek for a while, and it was considered an “innovation” when Latin was introduced. I also think that putting too much emphasis on Latin is really offensive to Eastern Christians. Again, not saying Latin isn’t important, it totally is, but so are Syriac and Greek.

I don’t think anyone is saying otherwise. Those other liturgical languages are also sacared languages in the Catholic Church.

The languages our Public Liturgies were written in are the sacred languages. The languages they were merely translated to are the vernacular languages.

BTW - I would argue that English might be considered a sacred language for only the Anglican Use. But not the Ordinary Form of the Roman Rite.

 

[phil19034]

Diaconia:

In our days I would say that Greek is the most valuable for Scripture study.

My priest agrees. He was saying that Latin is somewhat ambivalent. A statement may be able to be interpreted in one of several different ways. He was giving me examples of this, which went over my head, since I have not much Latin. Then he gave examples of how a statement could be read backward and it could mean the same thing. You really have to know the context of a Latin sentence to interpret it correctly.

Then he gave some similar examples of Greek (also over my head) and said it was a much more exact language and, therefore, more valuable for scripture study.

I had sat down with our priest to clear up a few things about the faith and we ended up having a talk about languages. Well, HE talked about languages while I sat somewhat spellbound at the extent of his knowledge!

The sacredness of Latin has little to do with the Scriptures (except the Vulgate). The sacredness of Latin has to do with it being the language that Roman Rite Mass and Roman Rite Divine Office were written in. PLUS, lots of church documents.

But the sacredness has to do with the original language of the Roman Rite Mass & Divine Office. Just like the original language of each of the other Catholic Rites are also scared.

 

[LilyM]

Well I hold it to be true today because it is used for Holy things and has been sanctified by Christ Our Lord. And today Latin has been preserved from more filth due to it being a dead language. I find this logic to be analagous to saying " this man for the majority of his life has done bad things, and engaged in deception and impurity. Even if he does Holy Things today, he himself cannot be holy for what he has pastly done." Forgive me if I am wrong. God bless my friend in the good Lord!

Really? Christ sanctified Latin? There is no evidence that He knew or spoke any Latin at all, or favoured it over any other language in any way, so this statement seems a huge reach.