The Power of Music

[dochawk]

I’m sure you meant to write “sinning” instead of “singing”, right?

err, yes.

:crazy_face:

 

[Peeps]

I live in LA. That should tell you a lot.

It sounds to me like you live in an “exception” to much of the rest of the U.S.

I live in a city not far from Chicago, so we are hardly out in the sticks. But I have never heard of your “Broadway” church musician–and I have a daughter who stage manages in NYC!

And the type of music that you talk about–I’ve never ever seen in any of the Catholic parishes that we have visited in quite a few states (my family is into figure skating, so we do a lot of weekend travel to competitions and other events).

I don’t know much about the East coast states and Catholic churches. My daughter no longer attends Mass in NYC, but it has nothing to do with the liturgy. She is frustrated that no one is friendly and there is no fellowship whatsoever. I disagree with her and believe she should attend Mass anyway, but the Bible does tell us that “fellowship” is part of a healthy Church, and a lack of fellowship seems to indicate some unhealthiness in the parish, even if the liturgy is spot-on.

Anyway, I think you have an “exceptional” parish (and not in a good way!), and I would caution you about assuming that all the rest of us have this same kind of liturgy. We might have a couple of the St. Louis Jesuits’ hymns in our Masses (depending on which Mass we attend), but even Saint Pope John Paul II included these “modern” hymns in his Masses! (our music director is from St. Louis, and she was part of the choir that sang to welcome JPII to their city when he visited their basilica).

There is a huge difference between what you are describing and what most of us out here in the Mid-Nation experience in our parishes. And as I have described in other threads, our city and many other cities in the Midwest have a Latin Mass parish , or there is a Latin Mass parish fairly close, or people can find such a parish in our bigger cities (e.g., St. John Cantius in Chicago), which, unlike California, are not generally a whole day away driving in bumper to bumper traffic away from us! (My daughter lived in San Diego for 6 years and did a lot of commuting into L.A. to work on shows.)

And our bishops seem to be fairly diligent about keep the liturgy “correct.” Thank God for them!

 

[Cirdan_XII]

Oh well, music at Mass is a can of worms. It ranges from the dreadful the sublime. Why the priests don’t seem to reign it in is indeed the question. Ditto for bishops.

If the priest does rein it in, people say, he’s being authoritarian and needs to give lay people more space to get involved. How dare he cut off the oxygen of their creativity and initiative.

If the priest doesn’t rein it in, people complain about awful music.

So it’s a losing proposition both ways?

 

[Cirdan_XII]

Being carried on Eagles wings in scripture is found in Exodus 19:4 and is of God’s care and protection of the Israelites as they are in Exodus, coming out of Egypt and wandering the desert on their journey into Israel. God stretching out His wings and protectively placing His people within them.
Staying with the Old Testament, David praised God with musical instruments including his harp, ( an instrument he was very skilled at) singing and dancing. The harp in one of its forms, was also the instrument used in the Temple to accompany liturgy.
As Psalm 137:1-2 - By the rivers of Babylon where we sat down, there we wept when we remembered Zion. There on the (willows or poplars) we hung our harps.

Although there is an old debate that keeps on coming up in music history circles on whether in these examples harps actually means harps, or whether it means lyres.

 

[Cirdan_XII]

Good thing your religion doesn’t have an obligation to watch music videos!

Didn’t Augusine say, he who watches cheesy low-budget youtube videos of popular hymns prays three times?

O wait, maybe not.

 

[pnewton]

I can’t say it enough times: it’s not about preference but obedience.

And I cannot say it enough, the stuff you are referring to is not disobedience.

According to whom?

Language. It is a thing. “Should” is not “shall”, and qualifiers cannot be ignored.

It’s a bird! It’s a plane! It’s a straw man!

I do not think you know what that word means, at least in the context that it was being used. If the point is that music is what draws people back to the Church, and I believe that was the point being made, then it is not a straw man. That said, the posts are there for anyone wanting to see for themselves.

EmmaSowl, I’m not sure if this is really a good way to approach this. “Obedience” sounds rather punitive.

Calling others disobedience is not charitable, unless there is black and white disobedience, as in, one is told explicitly to do one thing, one does not do that thing specifically. If there is a case where a priest is disobeying directives handed down by his bishop, then that could be relayed to that bishop, to see if he agrees that action is needed. Disobedience must be a specific violation of an order, not a general and none specific instruction.

 

[pnewton]

EmmaSowl:

I live in LA. That should tell you a lot.

It sounds to me like you live in an “exception” to much of the rest of the U.S.

That may explain at the discussion differences. However, it should be noted that the GIRM allows for this, being general and all,

Great importance should therefore be attached to the use of singing in the celebration of the Mass, with due consideration for the culture of peoples and abilities of each liturgical assembly.

LA is multicultural, and different than parts elsewhere.

 

[snarflemike]

I do not think you know what that word means, at least in the context that it was being used. If the point is that music is what draws people back to the Church, and I believe that was the point being made, then it is not a straw man. That said, the posts are there for anyone wanting to see for themselves.

And yet I did not then just go out and buy a bunch of CDs. I came back to the Church, where I could not (by a very long shot, and with very few exceptions) find the music that brought me back.

Besides, your comment was just snide, and was dismissive of the very thing that Vatican II called “a treasure of inestimable value, greater even than any other art.” Perhaps you should value that treasure as much as the Council Fathers did, rather than just tossing off remarks about getting CDs.

Sacred Music is “a necessary or integral part of the liturgy,” (again, Vatican II). Don’t be so casual about the bad effects of bad music, and the good effects of good music. Don’t be so dismissive of people who are negatively affected in their faith life by bad, banal, insipid, poorly-done music, and who yearn for sacred beauty and transcendence as found in the treasure of inestimable value.

 

[PetraG]

If the priest does rein it in, people say, he’s being authoritarian and needs to give lay people more space to get involved. How dare he cut off the oxygen of their creativity and initiative.

If the priest doesn’t rein it in, people complain about awful music.

So it’s a losing proposition both ways?

This can be true of essentially anything and everything a parish does. Pastors do have to be prudent about how they lead their parishes, though. It can be thankless work that is going to get somebody mad no matter what they do. That doesn’t mean they’re free to lead in whatever way they like without concerning themselves at all with how their leadership feels to the people who volunteer their time to doing the things necessary to making a parish run. They are always needing to find the middle way, between the white lines, avoiding both the ditch on the left and the ditch on the right.

 

[Loud-living-dogma]

Multicultural.
Does pop music reflect a culture? I suppose so.
Is there such a thing as Catholic culture? Why can’t we have at least some Catholic culture reflected in the music at Mass – why does it all have to reflect pop culture?

 

[GiftofMercy]

We would go back into Jewish history and in the physical form of harps to answer that question. There were a few different forms developed over the centuries.

And we would also go back into the original Jewish text and not the translations All records of the Old Testament and infact the New Testament are copies, as the originals (the Autographs) are not known at this point in time, so there is also some error introduced with the re writings in some of the Old Testament Hebrew Bible books.

 

[pnewton]

Besides, your comment was just snide, and was dismissive of the very thing that Vatican II called “a treasure of inestimable value, greater even than any other art.”

It was not snide. There is no need for that sort of stuff. Like I said, all the posts are still here, if anyone cares to weigh attitude, if anyone cares. One thing that will be found is that I never dismissed anything, again, using the proper definition of “dismissed”. I would rather say the rhetorical excess has been the opposite, insulting of musicians that serve their parishes in ways that some here do not think proper.

Don’t be so casual about the bad effects of bad music, and the good effects of good music

I do not know how to respond to this. I was “casual”? Bad music can have bad effects and good music can have good effects. I have no emotional response to this (casual) because it is the way language works, especially with terms like this that can have so many meanings. Know that not everyone here will agree with everyone else. That does not make the person wrong. I get quite emotional about issues where I see serious problems.

 

[pnewton]

Is there such a thing as Catholic culture?

That is an interesting term. Is the idea of universal culture an oxymoron? I think there is a type of Roman Rite culture rooted in Gregorian chant. The Church teaches this. Except for that, I do not know how much is truly universal.

 

[Peeps]

Sacred Music is “a necessary or integral part of the liturgy,” (again, Vatican II). Don’t be so casual about the bad effects of bad music, and the good effects of good music. Don’t be so dismissive of people who are negatively affected in their faith life by bad, banal, insipid, poorly-done music, and who yearn for sacred beauty and transcendence as found in the treasure of inestimable value.

Perhaps you should consider the possibility that not everyone finds the music “bad, banal, insipid, and poorly-done.”

I happen to love a lot of the “St. Louis Jesuits” hymns. I mean, I really LOVE them! I am moved to tears by some of their hymns. I don’t consider them “high art”, but I do think they are appropriate for Mass and that they speak to many Catholics where we are in our lives, and help us to love God and each other more.

Now the music that EmmaSowl is describing in her parish sounds really “out there” to me, and I’m not sure that I would stay in a parish that had this kind of Mass music on a regular basis.

But again, really think about your labeling of hymns. Everyone has different preferences which are currently allowed by the GIRM. You obviously love the ancient music of the Church.

But are you willing to recognize that many Catholics did not like that music and are glad that more melodic hymns replaced it? I’m in that camp. Are you willing to not look down on people like me in your parish?

That being said, I think it is a worthy goal to see at least one “traditional music” mass in the bigger parishes that have multiple Masses. However, it takes someone to take the lead in getting this started and well-established, and the actual “nuts and bolts” of getting Gregorian chant and sacred polyphony established in any parish are not as easy as you might think.

if you have the chops to take this task on, I think you should go for it, but you’ll have to be careful not to be a “music snob” and look down your nose at the current music in your parish–that will put a definite damper on your work and probably end any chances of ever hearing ancient music in your parish! People like to be respected and if you call “their” music preferences “banal, insipid, etc.”, you will not make friends and influence people!

If you have a music minister in your parish, is he or she an ally? Are they sympathetic with your wish for ancient music? My music minister is very sympathetic and loves the ancient music, Gregorian chant, classical music, etc., and he is knowledgeable and skilled in this musical style. Unfortunately, he does not like to teach and lacks these skills. Perhaps that’s why he has had poor luck getting chant established in our parish.

If your music minister is an ally, then work with him or her to get things off the ground.

But if your music minister is opposed to the change, well…I think you might either have to just go on dreaming (and be on the lookout for a change in music ministers!), or perhaps find a parish where the music is uplifting to your soul.

Best wishes!

 

[Peeps]

Is there such a thing as Catholic culture? Why can’t we have at least some Catholic culture reflected in the music at Mass – why does it all have to reflect pop culture?

That’s a very interesting question.

I don’t think there is such a thing as “Catholic Culture” because the Church is world-wide and includes every nation and culture and language and MUSIC in the world!

It seems that some Catholics are kind of stuck on the idea of a Catholic Church that looks, sounds, smells, and FEELS like Medieval Europe. To them, that’s “Catholic Culture.”

But here in the U.S., you are seeing more and more Evangelical Protestants convert to Catholicism (me and my husband, eg!), and Medieval Europe does not seem “Catholic” to us. It just seems like “Medieval Europe.”

So I don’t think that “Catholic Culture” can be pinned down to any one set of practices, other than the Sacraments and the Mass, and the importance and beauty of the True Presence of Jesus Christ.

 

[snarflemike]

You obviously love the ancient music of the Church.

Just one point. We (I) sing music (Propers) written in English and composed in the last decade. Music which does flow organically from the ancient music of the Church.

 

[Loud-living-dogma]

Loud-living-dogma:

Is there such a thing as Catholic culture? Why can’t we have at least some Catholic culture reflected in the music at Mass – why does it all have to reflect pop culture?

That’s a very interesting question.

I don’t think there is such a thing as “Catholic Culture” because the Church is world-wide and includes every nation and culture and language and MUSIC in the world!

It seems that some Catholics are kind of stuck on the idea of a Catholic Church that looks, sounds, smells, and FEELS like Medieval Europe. To them, that’s “Catholic Culture.”

But here in the U.S., you are seeing more and more Evangelical Protestants convert to Catholicism (me and my husband, eg!), and Medieval Europe does not seem “Catholic” to us. It just seems like “Medieval Europe.”

So I don’t think that “Catholic Culture” can be pinned down to any one set of practices, other than the Sacraments and the Mass, and the importance and beauty of the True Presence of Jesus Christ.

But, does it matter what the Church teaches? Gregorian chant = Pride of Place?

Also, there are a lot of us converts (me included) who associate Medieval Europe very strongly with Catholicism!

 

[snarflemike]

It seems that some Catholics are kind of stuck on the idea of a Catholic Church that looks, sounds, smells, and FEELS like Medieval Europe. To them, that’s “Catholic Culture.”

But here in the U.S., you are seeing more and more Evangelical Protestants convert to Catholicism (me and my husband, eg!), and Medieval Europe does not seem “Catholic” to us. It just seems like “Medieval Europe.”

About half of our schola are converts from Protestantism, and they are the most traditional. Veils and much more. Both the older ones and the younger ones.

 

[Loud-living-dogma]

I thought this was a good meditation on the current state of Catholic liturgy:

An Experience of Horror: "My car broke down, and I went to the nearest Novus Ordo..."

The following is a cri de coeur from Bill Riccio, a man who has been so instrumental in keeping alive the Traditional Roman Mass since the ...

rorate-caeli.blogspot.com

 

[Peeps]

About half of our schola are converts from Protestantism, and they are the most traditional. Veils and much more. Both the older ones and the younger ones.

That’s interesting. It’s not the case here, but again, I will cite “The WIllow Creek Effect.” We have some really really good contemporary Christian music and also Praise and Worship music in some of our Willow Creek church plants and people truly like it.

Perhaps I should also voice the possibility that the influence of Moody Bible Institute and the “Gospel Music” that has come out of this school for many decades. I love this kind of music–the revival hymns, gospel hymns, crusade (Billy Graham) hymns–whatever you want to call them.

And of course, the huge influence of Lutheran immigrants. My city was founded by Scandinavians and Germans, and their Lutheran and Reformed churches do some magnificent traditional hymns, or at least, they used to. Many of them have dropped this kind of music and are trying to copy the Evangelicals and do P and W, or they’re dropping Christian music and using secular “New Age” music, or songs about peace, love, and justice that may or may not include a Christian message.

I think that the Catholics in our city, for the most part, have embraced the changes of Vatican II. The fact that our Latin Mass parish is not growing by leaps and bounds as it is in other cities seems to suggest that most Catholics , both cradle and converts, are not interested. Of course, it helps that our bishops have made sure that the OF Masses follow the rubrics, and abuses are not allowed.