The Power of Music

[Peeps]

Do you think that this particular black family is an exception for being able to sing obediently?

Of course now. I believe the family you know has had a good music education either in school, privately, or both, and so they know how to sing different types of music in the appropriate “style.”

This is not the case in our city, where, for several years, music education was eliminated from public schools to save money, in spite of a plethora of research that indicates a definitely link between music education and math. (Our math scores on the national exams are pretty dismal too–only a small percentaget, around 15%, of our schoolchildren, achieve a minimum competency score on standardized national math tests.).

 

[Peeps]

I-I don’t know how to reply to these statements.

I suggest recognizing that things are different depending on where you live in the U.S.

Even in the same city, things can be very different depending on which side of town you live on.

Our city was once a great industrial powerhouse, with plenty of factory jobs for anyone of any color or nationality. But sometime during the early 1980s, many of those big factories were closed down, and the city is still struggling. Our crime rate is very high, possibly because we are close to Chicago and many of the gangs send their members here to “hide out” after a crime. And we have a definite geographic division between the “good side of town” and the “bad side of town.” (Realtors will warn people away from the “bad side.”)

We also have some of the highest property taxes in the nation, so we do not tend to attract “educated” people. They tend to move to places with lower property taxes, better schools, and a lower crime rate.

All of this influences the way people sing in church. Our city has a symphony orchestra, but it definitely doesn’t attract the crowds like a rock concert or R&B concert. Various ethnic music events are also very popular, with Hispanic, African American, and Irish/Celtic attracting large crowds. We have a large Hispanic population. Also a large Laotian population, which mainly attends their own Evangelical Free church which is very active, and features CCM presented by their own P and W group of young people!

And, as I’ve said many times on CAF, we are within driving distance of Willowbrook, and the style of music there influences every church in our city, and every church-goer.

Finally, we DO have a Latin Mass parish with Institute of Christ the King priests, a beautiful (but old) building, a stunning altar, and lots of parking. It has been in the city since the late 1980s. For the last several years, the parish has had a highly-educated music minister who sings like an angel, conducts the schola, and plays the organ. But…the parish has had very little growth. Catholics in this city and this area are NOT leaving their OF parishes to begin attending this parish. The membership has remained around 400, with most of the growth occurring as children grow up and start families of their own. But many of those children end up leaving the traditional parish and attending the OF parishes, or sadly, they stop attending Mass altogether (just like kids in the OF parishes).

These are just some of my ideas why chant (and classical music in general) has simply not caught on here. I think my explanation of “different locations and situations” is a fairly good explanation.

It might comfort you a little to know that our very large diocese has reverent parishes which stick to the rubrics in their OF Masses. Our bishops have historically been conservative and diligent to maintain reverence and correctness in the Masses. No “hippy dippy” stuff, although most of the parishes use the Gather hymnal and other OCP printed materials.

 

[Peeps]

What do you think would’ve happened if everyone officially involved just simply chanted without frills?

I know what would happen. Most people would not open their mouths. Without a strong accompaniment and cantor, people are embarrassed or afraid to open their mouths and join in the song. And many people “mouth” the words without making a sound, and then say, “I’m singing!” (And they are, in their hearts and minds.)

In case I didn’t mention it earlier, we are the “rich” parish in our city, and one of the 'richest" parishes in our very large diocese (all of Northern Illinois almost to Peoria.) So lack of education or “class” is not a factor in our parish.

 

[EmmaSowl]

Hope to finally read that link today! (Please pray for my crazy family). ray:t3:

 

[Loud-living-dogma]

Just curious Peeps, if your parish ever chants the Our Father, and if so do people chant along at all? This version:

 

[Peeps]

Just curious Peeps, if your parish ever chants the Our Father, and if so do people chant along at all? This version:

Yes, a few times a year. Not very often. I’ve heard it in Mainline Protestant churches, too.

What irks me is that I WANT THE NOTES!!!

I’ve heard it enough times that I should be able to sing along, but I don’t because that’s not the way I learn music. I am a terrible ear learner. I rely heavily on a written score. Without it, I’m very uncertain, and I’m concentrating so hard on getting the right note that I forget all about the fact that I’m saying a prayer to God.

But there aren’t any written notes, and so I just kind of hit the notes a millisecond after others hit the notes. I suspect that others are doing the same (even on your link), and so the thing ends up sounding like “O-o-o-r, Fa-Fa-Fa-there Who-who-who etc.” as people chime in AFTER they hear the person next to them sing the note. Frankly, I don’t think it’s at all pretty. Just gimme the notes, please! Or take me back in time and put me with a family where learning to sing by ear was the norm so I’ll pick this skill up.

Sorry to be so grumpy. I honestly do not like chant. I’m 62, and I’ve heard plenty of it, and I still don’t like it. It’s not melodic. It’s irregular. It’s like long talking–stretching out every vowel. Not pleasing to me.

But to each their own. I’ll put up with anything. It’s not all about me.

 

[EmmaSowl]

Thanks for posting this. It helped me to realize how different things are in parishes across the country. I guess that’s natural - it’s a big, diverse country.

I liked the original post. It seemed to sensibly address the issue of musicians doing their own thing. But the more I read the replies, the more the thread seemed to be about the unjust plight of musicians in the church, which is something I have not seen. Please know that I’m not disputing the plight - it’s just something that has not existed in the parishes I’ve belonged to.

In my parishes, musicians have been kings (my first pastor referred to the choir director as “his royal highness”). The choir directors/directors of liturgy whom I’ve known get huge salaries with long contracts. I haven’t seen one of them out of work. (On the other hand, I [and most of the people I know] have gone without work for some stretches).

But I understand that it may be different for others. The first post in the thread seemed to cover both kinds of problems: choir directors who won’t take direction and choir directors who are unjustly fired.

But the most on-target reply I saw was this:

My feeling is that the priest caves because those “others” have money he doesn’t want to lose.

I would also add that some priests don’t obey because of the money they don’t want to lose.

It is sad - very, very sad - how much power the moneyed parishioners have over the rest of the faithful. That reality is what leads to terms like “parish royalty” because the commoners have no weapon other than prayer to combat the abuse of wealth.

Luckily, prayer is powerful!

 

[EmmaSowl]

I believe the family you know has had a good music education

Does one really need a “good music education” in order to sing at Mass? Shouldn’t the music at Mass be accessible to everyone - air-guitar players/shower singers/anyone who has ever heard a note of music?

Quite frankly, that’s the #2 reason I am a chant fan. The #1 reason is that it has been designated by the US bishops in union with Rome. That decree should be enough - even if chant is incredibly difficult.

But chant is NOT difficult. In fact, it is so ridiculously easy that I suspect that is the reason professional musicians hate it: it doesn’t show off their chops.

 

[EmmaSowl]

possibly because we are close to Chicago

Say no more. One side of my family is from Chicago. I do not know for certain, but I would not be shocked to find out my (strongly Lutheran!) grandfather was mobbed up. God forgive me if I’ve made an unjust reference to one of my forefathers, but stories get told.

so we do not tend to attract “educated”

I do not know what education has to do with singing at Mass - especially being able to sing chant. I graduated from UCLA. Not one teacher instructed me in chant.

All of this influences the way people sing in church

Why? Why should all these secular things intrude on the timeless Mass?

And, as I’ve said many times on CAF, we are within driving distance of Willowbrook, and the style of music there influences every church in our city, and every church-goer.

Again, why? Who in the world is Willowbrook? I’ve never heard of Willowbrook, and if Vegas gave odds, I’d bet that, in 10 years, 99% of people polled will not know the word Willowbrook. It’s a Protestant fad. They come and go. The fads are endless.

And even if Willowbrook ends up being the greatest Protestant movement the world has ever known, what in the world does that have to do with Catholic liturgy?

 

[EmmaSowl]

But…the parish has had very little growth. Catholics in this city and this area are NOT leaving their OF parishes to begin attending this parish.

If I am any kind of example, the lack of growth is not a result of preference, but of geography and stubbornness.

Geography: across the street from where I work is an approved FSSP parish. Three times, I’ve engaged with parishioners who came to my workplace with info. I have their bulletin. I took a picture of their Mass-times sign. I still have not attended, even though it is a goal of my life to hear the Mass in Latin.

Stubbornness: I do not endorse what might be described as “white flight.” I believe in staying in one’s own area and trying to improve it. Plus, I am not a Latin-Only broad. I am a V2 gal. Vernacular Mass - I love it. But I want that Mass to obey the bishops in union with Rome.

(But seriously, those who care, pray that I pull myself together and attend one Latin Mass before I die).

These are just some of my ideas why chant (and classical music in general) has simply not caught on here.

Do you mean it’s because people don’t want to drive extra miles and spend extra money and time, or do you mean that chant and classical music have no relevance today?

Every video game my son plays is filled with classical music. So is every action movie.

Chant, of course, is different (although the New Age movement has found a way to tweak it for themselves). Chant is completely foreign to Americans - primarily because the largest church in the country (that would be the Catholic Church) has abdicated responsibility for encouraging it - even though it is the easiest thing for any schmoe to sing.

although most of the parishes use the Gather hymnal and other OCP printed materials.

I WISH my parish used those hymnals. No, we get Youth Songs - full of the word “I”; full of high notes; full of fast notes; full of bridges on top of refrains; full of pep; full of lyrics that should give faithful Catholics near heart attacks, but don’t because they are backed by the pastor who bows to parish royalty.

In fact, imho, if there is a great sore in the Catholic Church, it is the sore of Catholics thinking that V2 gave them permission to do anything but object to Mass music.

 

[EmmaSowl]

(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.) EmmaSowl:

What do you think would’ve happened if everyone officially involved just simply chanted without frills?

All of what you said applies to ANY song. Please explain why it would happen more with chant - a style of singing which has no frills and an easy range.

So lack of education or “class” is not a factor in our parish.

Again, I am baffled as to where education or “class” figures in. It does not take a Ph.D to sing a song with a small range that is full of quarter notes which match the syllables used.

It DOES take a feat of strength to sing songs full of dotted 16th notes, bridges, repeats, and really high notes - but none of that involves education or class.

I do not understand why education or class is an issue in Catholic music.

 

[Peeps]

Again, why? Who in the world is Willowbrook? I’ve never heard of Willowbrook, and if Vegas gave odds, I’d bet that, in 10 years, 99% of people polled will not know the word Willowbrook. It’s a Protestant fad. They come and go. The fads are endless.

And even if Willowbrook ends up being the greatest Protestant movement the world has ever known, what in the world does that have to do with Catholic liturgy?

I apologize–it’s Willow Creek. I was trying to hurry in typing my post.

It’s a huge megachurch. Twenty-thousand people attended “seeker services” every Sunday, and during the week, the actual members attend services.

Twenty thousand people. I realize it’s a drop in the bucket compared to the number of people in the Northwest suburbs of Chicago.

But it’s a lot of people

We have a Willow Creek “church plant” in our city (many cities have them), and on any given Sunday, one tenth of our population of slightly over 100,000 people attend services at this church.

That’s a whole lot of people.

MANY of the people who attend these services are Catholics. I know Catholics who attend Mass and then go the Willow Creek church plant to hear the really well-done contemporary Christian music done by professional (therefore, salaried) musicians.

The reason Willow Creek matters to the Catholic liturgy is that it influences Christian’s preferences in music. When we are attempting to evangelize, we MUST understand the culture that we are evangelizing. Missionaries who go overseas do not expect the people to be like them. They spend a lot of time studying the language and learning to understand, APPRECIATE, and even love the culture of the people they hope to see convert to Christianity.

Yes, Willow Creek will pass, but it will leave its mark on Christianity in the U.S., just as all the other Protestant “fads” have left their mark.

I really wish that you could have the opportunity to teach chant to various congregations. I think you would be unpleasantly surprised. I am an organist/pianist and have been playing in all kinds of churches for over 50 years and have worked with many music directors, conductors, and music teachers. I think you would find that chant doesn’t come easily to many people.

Here’s a link to Willow Creek.

Willow Creek Community Church

Willow Creek is a church committed to loving everyone always—and extending the hope and grace of Jesus to our neighbors near and far. With eight locations across Chicagoland, Willow Creek delivers biblical teaching and engaging worship to thousands each weekend, and fosters meaningful community...

www.willowcreek.org

 

[EmmaSowl]

What irks me is that I WANT THE NOTES!!!

WE AGREE!! (Whoo-hoo!).

I always want the notes. That’s why I hate the pull-down screens (hiding the Holy Family statues) that don’t give notes and often can’t even keep us on the same page with lyrics.

Yes, I wish the Our Father chant had notes because there are a few spots where I’m not sure where to go.

But the problem is not with the Our Father chant. It’s with the publishers who don’t provide the notes.

 

[EmmaSowl]

But it’s a lot of people

A whole lot of English fans of Henry VIII became Anglicans - now that mighty church is nearly dead.

A whole lot of good-willed American hippies became Jesus Freaks/Calvary Chapel - now you can’t find a college student who knows those terms.

A whole lot of people yelled “Crucify him!” right before the Catholic Church had Her birth 2,000 years ago - and like the Energizer Bunny, She keeps going and going and going…

No self-respecting Vegas bookie would bet that the word Catholic will disappear in a decade.

just as all the other Protestant “fads” have left their mark.

Which Protestant fads (why did you put “fads” in quotes?) have left a mark on the Catholic Church? What was the mark? Was it a good mark or a bad mark? How do you know if it was good or bad?

I really wish that you could have the opportunity to teach chant to various congregations.

Me, too - and I don’t even know a thing about chant!!!

I think you would be unpleasantly surprised.

I think differently. If you’re rich, give me a one-year salary at any Catholic parish of your choice in my county, and we would find out.

Here’s a link to Willow Creek.

I couldn’t give two flying shakes of a lamb’s tale about Willow Creek - unless someone wants to convince me that it is the Church that Christ founded.

 

[Loud-living-dogma]

Yes, I’ve learned a lot on “Musica Sacra Forum” and the picture that is painted of Catholic Church employment isn’t pretty.
I feel like it’s very unfortunate how many things in the church are dictated by wealthy parishioners.

 

[Peeps]

Which Protestant fads (why did you put “fads” in quotes?) have left a mark on the Catholic Church? What was the mark? Was it a good mark or a bad mark? How do you know if it was good or bad?

(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.) Peeps:

Here’s just one example: Vatican II

I believe that one of the reasons this Church council happened was because so many Catholics were leaving Holy Mother Church to become Protestant. For many of them, the only thing they ever “did” at their Catholic parish was go to Mass, and when they were growing up, go to CCD. There was nothing else for them, nothing that helped them to grow closer to Jesus and enjoy true fellowship with other believers. And there was no music that they liked and understood and that ministered to their soul.

At the Protestant churches, they liked being able to understand the language during the “worship service.” They liked the youth groups and children’s clubs and ladies’ and men’s Bible studies, and family life training, and all the opportunities for service to each other and to the world They liked VBS and summer camps and the choirs and the SINGING, the glorious congregational singing, and Singspiration-style singing during Sunday school and Sunday evening vesper services, and the organ AND piano combination that livened everything up and the “body life”–so many opportunities to fellowship and make friends during the week in Christ-centered activities

Many of the things I mentioned above are now offered by Catholic parishes as a result of Vatican II (except for the organ/piano combo, but that’s gone from many Protestant churches now, and has been replaced with Praise and Worship bands, which are now heard in CATHOLIC parishes, too–again, a “fad” that has been picked up by Catholic churches).

I know that there have always been opportunities for service and fellowship in the Catholic Church, but I also know that 25% of my Christian and Missionary Alliance church (attended for 10 years while we lived down South) was EX-Catholics. I think that’s the norm for many Evangelical Protestant churches–a LOT of Catholics leave Holy Mother Church to attend the Evangelical Protestant churches, and many times, the reason they give is that “the Catholic Church is so dead.”

I don’t think it’s wise for any Catholic to pooh-pooh Protestantism or the activities that you choose to label as “fads.” I don’t call fellowship, Bible studies, good music, charitable service to various needy groups, etc. “fads”–I call them “Christian life,” and I think that it’s appropriate and good for the Catholic Church to take these wonderful manifestations of “body life” (or “fads”) back again and incorporate them into their church life.

 

[Peeps]

I cringe when I hear Catholics long to “go back to the old days.” They’re gone. They’re now called “vintage,” and they’re gone. We can’t go back.

EmmaSowl, the reason chant doesn’t work is that we simply don’t have the musical “chops” that we used to have. Children don’t learn to sing properly and to listen and appreciate music in school anymore.

They learn hip-hip and pop–current music that keeps them engaged. And the result is dreadful–grown ups who don’t know how to sing in a head voice (necessary for chant to sound “lovely”), and they can’t match a pitch or a melody (again, necessary for chant to work–people have to be able to match what they have just heard the leader chant).

And they have picked up habits like “sliding” that are part of rock and country music, and when used in chant, sounds simply awful, grating.

And we don’t pronounce the words, and we use diphthongs–these are death to chant (or any good music).

And we don’t BREATHE properly, and in chant, this means constant breaks in the musical line, which make the chant sound choppy and disconnected

Our musical/singing skills are at an all-time low in the U.S.

Chant in the Church needs to start with CHILDREN, not with adults who have no clue and no skills. I would suggest that music education be included along with the religious education that children are required to take, and that the music ministers in Catholic parishes teach the children Church music history, Latin pronunciation, and train them in various sacred music styles, including chant. The parents should be encouraged to get their children involved in local children’s choirs that still teach basic singing skills and perform a variety of music, including classical and ancient.

THEN you will see chant in church again. But to ask adults to try it–it’s like asking adults to run a mile. Most of us could not.

 

[Margaret_Ann]

I just think interest in making music has dwindled, and people would rather hear “professionals” than try to sing or play themselves. So sad.

In the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church, ALL Divine Services (especially the Divine Liturgy) are to be sung, whether it’s choral or congregational singing.

In my parish, I lead the congregation in singing the Divine Liturgy. Our sister parish has a choir except during the summer.

This week, the Eparchy of Stamford will be hosting SingCon 2019, where everyone from beginners to experts can learn to sing correctly the Divine Services.

God gave us our voices to praise Him. As St. Augustine of Hippo said: “He who sings, prays twice.”

 

[Margaret_Ann]

And we don’t pronounce the words, and we use diphthongs–these are death to chant (or any good music).

And we don’t BREATHE properly, and in chant, this means constant breaks in the musical line, which make the chant sound choppy and disconnected

My voice instructor tells me the same thing. She always gives me breathing & warm-up exercises to do, advice on posture (e.g. keep your chin down slightly - it takes the pressure off your vocal cords).

And I think of her every time I see this:

 

[Margaret_Ann]

Chant in the Church needs to start with CHILDREN, not with adults who have no clue and no skills. I would suggest that music education be included along with the religious education that children are required to take, and that the music ministers in Catholic parishes teach the children Church music history, Latin pronunciation, and train them in various sacred music styles, including chant. The parents should be encouraged to get their children involved in local children’s choirs that still teach basic singing skills and perform a variety of music, including classical and ancient.

Can I quote you on this at SingCon 2019? Y/N

If yes, please pm me with your real name, city & state. I want to give you proper credit.