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MaryAgnes
Guest
Our priest said he will handle it …
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AngelicDoctor
Guest
I have read all these posts and I have some comments. I have spent 4 years in formation for the priesthood. … I am still discerning… but I have learned a lot in this time. Unlike many Catholics, I have seen what the rectory life of a parish priest is actually like from the inside. I have lived in two different rectories (one with 3 priests, another with 1 priest by himself). The average person, including most Catholics, do not get much a glimpse into the personal home life of a priest (Archbishop Sheen had the aptly titled book “Those Mysterious Priests”–in deed, the life of priests, and celibacy in particular, are so counter-cultural and mysterious, that they are often maligned or held suspect for insufficient reason. Therefore, it is common to let bad articles, CNN stories, gossip, suspicion, and–our own wild imaginations–run wild. I will post some comments on the posts that I have seen so far. These are my opinions, but they are at least backed up by greater personal experience than most have.
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AngelicDoctor
Guest
Gksaoh wrote: “Since most Catholics know little about the private lives of their priests, some buy the argument that celibacy makes for greater dedication to the apostolate. An article in the August 21, 2001, issue of the Jesuit magazine, AMERICA, gives the other side of the story, ‘Home Alone in the Priesthood’.
The author was supervisor of 250 Marine Corps chaplains. While 20% of chaplains were Catholic priests, they accounted for about 50% of discipline cases. Protestant chaplains who were married with children had less temptation.”
The author was supervisor of 250 Marine Corps chaplains. While 20% of chaplains were Catholic priests, they accounted for about 50% of discipline cases. Protestant chaplains who were married with children had less temptation.”
- Perhaps the conditions of being on a military base had something to do with the discipline offensese (whatever they were). That is a uniquely stressful environment, it is not necessarily the same as being a parish priest in a town in the US).
- What temptations were Protestant chaplains spared?: The temptation to committ adultery, to become alcholic, to gamble, to physically/mentally/psychologically/spiritually abuse their wife or children?
ANY PRIEST WHO HAS SAT FOR 1 YEAR IN THE CONFESSIONAL WOULD HONESTLY ADMIT THAT BEING MARRIED DOES NOT REMOVE ALL TEMPTATIONS TO SIN: priests tell me that adultery, alcholism, physical abuse of children or spouse, internet porn addiction, gambling, etc. are NOT AT ALL RARE AMONG PENITENTS–ESPECIALLY MARRIED PENITENTS! (These priests, of course, do not reveal specific confessions, but made general comments, and they say that–with perhaps the exception of marriage–they hear every type of sin in the confessional!) (that includes these things done by women). - to echo a previous post, yep, America is a liberal mag (rag), and that bias against priestly celibacy (a trait that has especially come to characterize that 60’s/70’s/80’s “lost generation” of clergy confused by a Church in the midst of sweeping reform) might very well inform the way they report on the state of the Church.
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AngelicDoctor
Guest
AngelicDoctor said:
Whoops… I meant to write “with perhaps the exception of murder–they hear every type of sin in the confessional”
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marvin
Guest
Wow! You mean married men never cheat on their wives, or drink too much, or take drugs, or look at pornography, or gamble, or…
Once again the Jesuits have solved the problem for all of us! Thank goodness they’re so smart!
Once again the Jesuits have solved the problem for all of us! Thank goodness they’re so smart!
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AngelicDoctor
Guest
Gksaoh also wrote:
"Spiritual care of large numbers of faithful is stressful. Without psychological support, alcohol, drugs and sex can be escapes from loneliness. That is why God said in Genesis, ‘It is not good for man to be alone.’ "
Gksaoh:
"Spiritual care of large numbers of faithful is stressful. Without psychological support, alcohol, drugs and sex can be escapes from loneliness. That is why God said in Genesis, ‘It is not good for man to be alone.’ "
Gksaoh:
- You are right to say that priestly ministry is stressful… that “drugs and sex can be escapes from loneliness.” But consider this:
Do you know of any married men or women who are not lonely for a great part of the time? I know I do. Do you know any married men or women who have sought “drugs and sex” as “escapes from loneliness.” I know I do. Sit in during divorce trials if you doubt it.
You are right that alcohol is a particular danger for priests. If they are stressed or lonely, they can turn to the bottle and sink into alcoholism. Especially if they do not live with another priest in the rectory who can keep an eye on them and keep them accountable.
HOWEVER, keep in mind that many alcholic priests probably were exposed to alcholism through THEIR FAMILIES (their fathers and mothers). I know a priest who was one of 7 kids and his father was a raging drunk! Do you think that a man with a wife and 7 kids was immune to the stresses of providing for a family just because he had a house full of people living with him? Do you think that that whole internet porn industry exists to serve celibate Catholic priests. Perhaps you are willing to admit that some married men also suffer from those things? (come on!) - priestly ministry is not easy, nor is celibacy without its challenges (loneliness primary among them). Many priests have groups of peers, sometimes called “support networks” that they use in order to deal with stress in a healthy way. Also, our diocese has an team of priests who work on alcholism prevention… inquiring about priests who seem to be struggling, and doing interventions when necessary.
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AngelicDoctor
Guest
Gksaoh,
Last comment (for now):
"Spiritual care of large numbers of faithful is stressful. Without psychological support, alcohol, drugs and sex can be escapes from loneliness. That is why God said in Genesis, ‘It is not good for man to be alone.’
Who said that in Genesis? The same Holy Trinity who sent the only begotten Son to take the form of a man–WHO LIVED A CELIBATE LIFE? Jesus grew up from infancy, learned a trade, was an obedient son, listened in the temple, preached, etc. Why did he not marry as was the common expectation of a Jewish man his age? Have you ever asked yourself that question? Is it perhaps because celibacy has some spiritual significance (open up your Bible and read Matthew 19–celibacy “for the sake of the Kingdom”).
Did you ever realize that the prophet Jeremiah was celibate, as was St. Jospeh, as was St. Paul. Read St. Paul’s explanation as to why he thought celibacy was ideal for the man: “the unmarried man is anxious about the affairs of the Lord, how to please the Lord; but the married man is anxious about worldy affairs, how to please his wife, and his interests are divided” (1 Cor 7:32-33). While marriage is a sacrament in which pleasing the wife (helping to get to heaven) can become part of a holy vocation, the Church is wise in its discipline on clergy celibacy, because there is a real risk of a priest “having his interests divided.” When you need Mass or the annointing of the sick, do you want to have to compete with a priest’s wife’s legitimate spiritual need?
See also Mt 22:30 on the dignity of celibate chastity as a sign of eternal life with God.
Gksaoh, you cited Genesis, and that is common fodder for anti-Catholics. But, we have to read the WHOLE BIBLE as Catholics!
Last comment (for now):
"Spiritual care of large numbers of faithful is stressful. Without psychological support, alcohol, drugs and sex can be escapes from loneliness. That is why God said in Genesis, ‘It is not good for man to be alone.’
Who said that in Genesis? The same Holy Trinity who sent the only begotten Son to take the form of a man–WHO LIVED A CELIBATE LIFE? Jesus grew up from infancy, learned a trade, was an obedient son, listened in the temple, preached, etc. Why did he not marry as was the common expectation of a Jewish man his age? Have you ever asked yourself that question? Is it perhaps because celibacy has some spiritual significance (open up your Bible and read Matthew 19–celibacy “for the sake of the Kingdom”).
Did you ever realize that the prophet Jeremiah was celibate, as was St. Jospeh, as was St. Paul. Read St. Paul’s explanation as to why he thought celibacy was ideal for the man: “the unmarried man is anxious about the affairs of the Lord, how to please the Lord; but the married man is anxious about worldy affairs, how to please his wife, and his interests are divided” (1 Cor 7:32-33). While marriage is a sacrament in which pleasing the wife (helping to get to heaven) can become part of a holy vocation, the Church is wise in its discipline on clergy celibacy, because there is a real risk of a priest “having his interests divided.” When you need Mass or the annointing of the sick, do you want to have to compete with a priest’s wife’s legitimate spiritual need?
See also Mt 22:30 on the dignity of celibate chastity as a sign of eternal life with God.
Gksaoh, you cited Genesis, and that is common fodder for anti-Catholics. But, we have to read the WHOLE BIBLE as Catholics!
S
surfinpure
Guest
AngelicDoctor,
May I be the first to say, THANK YOU for your insight and your knowledge of scripture. Very well put!
Mary
May I be the first to say, THANK YOU for your insight and your knowledge of scripture. Very well put!
Mary
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AngelicDoctor
Guest
Scout wrote:
“I don’t know how accurate the data for this article is, but I have no problems with allowing priests to be married. When you review the original cause for the decision for priests to be celibate, then you understand that the reason no longer exists.”
You are all right to discuss this, because clerical celibacy is a discipline and not an unchangeable doctrine. But why do you think that celibacy is no longer relevant? Please give an argument for it? One priest once said it best when he said that priests all have a charism:
For the Benedictine is it his ora et labora (prayer and work); for the Dominican it is his preaching, the Franciscan–his poverty, the Cistercian–his silence, a Jesuit–his theological learning and teaching. “What is the charism of the diocesan (parish) priest?” he asked us group of seminarians? “HIS AVAILABILITY.” A priest’s life (whether he is praying, administering the sacraments, doing administration, or sleeping is filled with interruptions). To put it briefly, he has to be available to help his spiritual children in their needs at a moment’s notice. A celibate priest is able to keep in mind how sacred marriage is supposed to be… and that helps him give good spritual direction to married parishoners.
Celibacy and Married life are two complementary halves… they are not in competition… you do not have to pit one against the other just because celibacy is mysterious and unknown to you.
Scout also wrote:
“New priests should allow to be married. I don’t think priests who have already taken their vows should be allowed to cast-aside their vows of celibacy, but new priests should be allowed to be married if they choose.”
As a man preparing for the priesthood, I am glad that I do not have to make the choice between having two beautiful vocations and one beautiful one. Having that decision made, I know what I am getting myself into at ordination–to be totally dedicated to God, and to be focussed on giving my all to one vocation rather than trying to divide my time, energy, and heart into two equally worthy endeavors (a parish and a family).
“I don’t know how accurate the data for this article is, but I have no problems with allowing priests to be married. When you review the original cause for the decision for priests to be celibate, then you understand that the reason no longer exists.”
You are all right to discuss this, because clerical celibacy is a discipline and not an unchangeable doctrine. But why do you think that celibacy is no longer relevant? Please give an argument for it? One priest once said it best when he said that priests all have a charism:
For the Benedictine is it his ora et labora (prayer and work); for the Dominican it is his preaching, the Franciscan–his poverty, the Cistercian–his silence, a Jesuit–his theological learning and teaching. “What is the charism of the diocesan (parish) priest?” he asked us group of seminarians? “HIS AVAILABILITY.” A priest’s life (whether he is praying, administering the sacraments, doing administration, or sleeping is filled with interruptions). To put it briefly, he has to be available to help his spiritual children in their needs at a moment’s notice. A celibate priest is able to keep in mind how sacred marriage is supposed to be… and that helps him give good spritual direction to married parishoners.
Celibacy and Married life are two complementary halves… they are not in competition… you do not have to pit one against the other just because celibacy is mysterious and unknown to you.
Scout also wrote:
“New priests should allow to be married. I don’t think priests who have already taken their vows should be allowed to cast-aside their vows of celibacy, but new priests should be allowed to be married if they choose.”
As a man preparing for the priesthood, I am glad that I do not have to make the choice between having two beautiful vocations and one beautiful one. Having that decision made, I know what I am getting myself into at ordination–to be totally dedicated to God, and to be focussed on giving my all to one vocation rather than trying to divide my time, energy, and heart into two equally worthy endeavors (a parish and a family).
M
mercygate
Guest
A very good, faithful priest once shared with me the great affirmation he felt in his personal charism of celibacy after meeting my spouse and spending a day with us. Sometimes I think priests understand and value marriage better than we married people do.For me, the witness of celibacy among clergy and Religious has helped me in affirming my own condition of life.
We need each other. Both witnesses together fulfill the entire dignity of the human person.
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AngelicDoctor
Guest
Gardenswithkids (cool name) wrote:
"No it isn’t good for man to be alone, unless of course he is alone with God, in which case he isn’t really alone at all. I heard one priest when asked about loneliness responded, “Who could be ever be lonely with the Blessed Sacrament?” "
Dead on. Of course, priests make sure that all men in formation now realize that celibacy, even though it plays a large role in a priest’s spiritual configuration to Christ, is not always easy. I have lived as a celibate (though not yet sealed by a promise to the bishop) for about 6 years since my conversion. I am 28… prime years for a man to be exercising his sexuality in a loving marriage. And you know what,… it is at times lonely (loneliness is far more difficult than the insane sexual temptations that our demented society is fixated on.) Celibacy can definitely come with feelings of isolation. But, for most of the time, I experience it as a joy… it is just a way of life that I feel God calls me to. With solitude (no wife/kids) comes intimacy with God (does anyone want to argue that nuns should give it up and get married?..). Intimacy with God can also come through being a wife and mother, but celibacy is also part of the life of the Church. Why don’t Catholics embrace and support that?
Also, La Chiara (name means “Clear or light” in Italian) shed some light on the subject when she said:
“I also recognize that Catholic priests do live a lonely life. They are expected to be there for their parishioners’ greatest despairs but are only tangently involved in parishioners’ greatest joys.” And that is a good observation. HOWEVER, try to imagine the joy that a spiritual father (a priest) receives when he witnesses a catechumen that he instructed receive baptism; imagine the beaming fatherly pride he experiences when a humble penitent says “bless me father, it has been 20 years since my last confession.” Imagine a priest seeing countless children grow up to be mature and educated young Catholics who fight against the mad (popular) culture of relatavism and death? I have had small tastes of this in my work in a parish (teaching, primarily). And I can tell you, it is what a good priest lives for. He also has a natural family–mother, brother, sis, nephews, aunts. So is lonliness part of it,… sure,… but do not forget the heart of what priestly ministry is (ALL OF THIS … FROM THE EUCHARIST!)
"No it isn’t good for man to be alone, unless of course he is alone with God, in which case he isn’t really alone at all. I heard one priest when asked about loneliness responded, “Who could be ever be lonely with the Blessed Sacrament?” "
Dead on. Of course, priests make sure that all men in formation now realize that celibacy, even though it plays a large role in a priest’s spiritual configuration to Christ, is not always easy. I have lived as a celibate (though not yet sealed by a promise to the bishop) for about 6 years since my conversion. I am 28… prime years for a man to be exercising his sexuality in a loving marriage. And you know what,… it is at times lonely (loneliness is far more difficult than the insane sexual temptations that our demented society is fixated on.) Celibacy can definitely come with feelings of isolation. But, for most of the time, I experience it as a joy… it is just a way of life that I feel God calls me to. With solitude (no wife/kids) comes intimacy with God (does anyone want to argue that nuns should give it up and get married?..). Intimacy with God can also come through being a wife and mother, but celibacy is also part of the life of the Church. Why don’t Catholics embrace and support that?
Also, La Chiara (name means “Clear or light” in Italian) shed some light on the subject when she said:
“I also recognize that Catholic priests do live a lonely life. They are expected to be there for their parishioners’ greatest despairs but are only tangently involved in parishioners’ greatest joys.” And that is a good observation. HOWEVER, try to imagine the joy that a spiritual father (a priest) receives when he witnesses a catechumen that he instructed receive baptism; imagine the beaming fatherly pride he experiences when a humble penitent says “bless me father, it has been 20 years since my last confession.” Imagine a priest seeing countless children grow up to be mature and educated young Catholics who fight against the mad (popular) culture of relatavism and death? I have had small tastes of this in my work in a parish (teaching, primarily). And I can tell you, it is what a good priest lives for. He also has a natural family–mother, brother, sis, nephews, aunts. So is lonliness part of it,… sure,… but do not forget the heart of what priestly ministry is (ALL OF THIS … FROM THE EUCHARIST!)
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AngelicDoctor
Guest
Gardenswithkids also wrote:
“It is indeed sad when priests turn to alcohol or other substances and sins for their support when they should be turning to the Lord for it. That is why the Church should examine carefully the men who are considering the priesthood to ensure that those men turn to the proper Source of All Goodness for their comfort and support. The men who lead our parishes and guide us spiritually should know how to depend on God alone; not a wife, not a drug, but God.”
Well put Gardens, and very true. Dioceses do psychological screening before accepting a candidate, and 4-8 years of good seminary formation should highlight and address such clinical problems (though, obviously, the do not always do). However, keep in mind again tha comparrision with marriage.
Do we as a church screen married men and women to see if they have a risk of alcholism, adultery, abuse, porn addiction, etc? Actually, perhaps the most common escape for many parish priests is the same as it for married men and women–the TV. And it is Satan’t favorite toy because it wastes time that we can otherwise spend loving our families and parishoners! No, and that also has a devastating effect on the faithful–family members. Marriage as a sacrament in the Church is also facing a severe crisis (divorce rampant, lapse Catholic and “Chreaster” families, etc.). Just as with the celibate priesthood, many married Catholics are causing scandal in the way they fail to live out their vocations. What does that mean? Do we just give up on marriage just because it is not always modeled well?
I think celibacy is at times difficult, but is also at times a very peaceful and joyful life. I just wish more Catholics would support their priests instead of campaigning for a change in this discipiline.
“It is indeed sad when priests turn to alcohol or other substances and sins for their support when they should be turning to the Lord for it. That is why the Church should examine carefully the men who are considering the priesthood to ensure that those men turn to the proper Source of All Goodness for their comfort and support. The men who lead our parishes and guide us spiritually should know how to depend on God alone; not a wife, not a drug, but God.”
Well put Gardens, and very true. Dioceses do psychological screening before accepting a candidate, and 4-8 years of good seminary formation should highlight and address such clinical problems (though, obviously, the do not always do). However, keep in mind again tha comparrision with marriage.
Do we as a church screen married men and women to see if they have a risk of alcholism, adultery, abuse, porn addiction, etc? Actually, perhaps the most common escape for many parish priests is the same as it for married men and women–the TV. And it is Satan’t favorite toy because it wastes time that we can otherwise spend loving our families and parishoners! No, and that also has a devastating effect on the faithful–family members. Marriage as a sacrament in the Church is also facing a severe crisis (divorce rampant, lapse Catholic and “Chreaster” families, etc.). Just as with the celibate priesthood, many married Catholics are causing scandal in the way they fail to live out their vocations. What does that mean? Do we just give up on marriage just because it is not always modeled well?
I think celibacy is at times difficult, but is also at times a very peaceful and joyful life. I just wish more Catholics would support their priests instead of campaigning for a change in this discipiline.
C
Chris_Jacobsen
Guest
If a priest can’t handle being single, what about the rest of us who are single?
While it is possible to be a good Catholic and get married, it is not very probable. Most people who get married, are able to get married because they aren’t practicing Catholics, they engaged in premarital sex, practice birth control, or married someone who was divorced.
In other words, to get married in 2005, generally one has to defy the laws of God. A married priesthood would be a very poor example for us all.
While it is possible to be a good Catholic and get married, it is not very probable. Most people who get married, are able to get married because they aren’t practicing Catholics, they engaged in premarital sex, practice birth control, or married someone who was divorced.
In other words, to get married in 2005, generally one has to defy the laws of God. A married priesthood would be a very poor example for us all.
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MaryAgnes
Guest
And I agree with you 100%, Angelic! I really believe if priests were supported, loved and affirmed more good would be done than changing a million disciplines! While the priest’s life used to be mysterious–today it is like living in a fish bowl. Sometimes a priest’s every move is scrutinized by the very people he shepherds. This is not a selling point for priestly vocations.
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Tazgurl21
Guest
I don’t know,
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AngelicDoctor
Guest
Tazgurl21 said:
What, specifically, is causing that yellow guy hesitation?
I don’t mean to beat a dead horse; but, I do enjoy sharing with others the beauty of the more under-appreciated (and insufficiently understood) treasures of the Catholic faith–and priestly celibacy is chief among these. I really do think that both (spiritually) fruitful celibate consecration and (spiritually + physically) fruitful marital fidelity work together as a necessary tag team in the defense of the true CHRISTIAN meaning of human sexuality. The world needs the witness of both!
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gaothdearg
Guest
. That is why God said in Genesis, “It is not good for man to be alone.”
You are so right., What can we do? Start a petition? You have my support
You are so right., What can we do? Start a petition? You have my support
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SusanL
Guest
You are so right., What can we do? Start a petition? You have my support
Notice that God said “alone” not “married.” Not being alone can take on different forms. When was the last time you invited your priest to dinner?
Adam really would have been alone as far as human company goes. That was different.
If you think that priests should be married, why wasn’t Jesus married?
Save your petitions for something more important.
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Tazgurl21
Guest
I don’t know but I read on a website like 25 years ago catholic priests were allowed to marry. Don’t know how true that is. I asked a priest who had been a friend of my family for many years now. He said that they take a promise to celibacy not a vow of chasity. the ones that take the the vow are only the rreligious priests. He also said that the promise can be broken only if a priest decides to break the promise. But he did kind of mention that we did have some popes that were married and did allow catholic priests to marry. I think they should allow priests to marry either way.
Plus some newly ordained priests are kind of flirts so i think that is why also. but well just see what this new pope will do and allow. Plus this sex abuse scandal is costing the vcatican lots of money nowadays and i hear the pope doesn’t want to deal with the cases. thats another reason why i think priests should marry. sorry if y’all don’t agree with me but thats my opinion.
Plus some newly ordained priests are kind of flirts so i think that is why also. but well just see what this new pope will do and allow. Plus this sex abuse scandal is costing the vcatican lots of money nowadays and i hear the pope doesn’t want to deal with the cases. thats another reason why i think priests should marry. sorry if y’all don’t agree with me but thats my opinion.
C
Corki
Guest
Priests have never been allowed to marry, not even in the Eastern Church. Married men HAVE been ordained but not the other way around.
No one needs an extra vow of “chastity”. We are all to be chaste according to our station in life.
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