The primacy of Scripture?

[gurneyhalleck1]

I’ve never had a problem with the art, decoration, architecture, or visuals of Catholic and Orthodox church edifices. I think if anything it’s a strength.

I will confess that I have a bit of a problem when I see some people get a tad over the top in their devotions to these images. I see people kiss the feet of Mary over and over, sometimes ten times in a row, bow, then stand up, kiss her hands, then put flowers in front of the image. I’ve seen some strange devotions. While it may appear obvious to us that it’s just a ‘representation’ of the saint or Christ, some people after a while seem to forget that and get a tad out there IMO…

 

[Araninski]

The divine beings can’t be portrayed, we just can’t they are out of our imagination,however paintings of the passages of the bible are useful, people can easily understand how more or less the event looked like.

In my opinion, people should abstain from trying to portray anything that has to do with divine begins (Jesus , God, angels, etc), However what people can use are symbols, symbols are used to represent something, the bible represented the Holy Spirit as a dove, the cross is used to refer, how Jesus died and Resurrected, as well as, how our sins become crucified to follow Jesus. Note the cross alone because Jesus is divine He shouldn’t be in any cross in my opinion.

Acts 17:29-30

29"Therefore since we are God’s offspring, we should not think that the divine being is like gold or silver or stone—an image made by man’s design and skill. 30In the past God overlooked such ignorance, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent."

Hisalone…

How would you have survived if you lived before the printing press?

How would you trust anyone to share with you the gospels as you would not believe the monks of Ireland who were the ones who saved the Word from the plight afflicting Europe…the monasteries and sources of written Scripture being destroyed? I am assuming you are of European descent. Correct me if i am wrong.

Really, what would you have done with the oral tradition? There were no bibles available for the common people before the printery.

Are you serious? Christianity started without printing press, the answer to your question,with faith.

Hope that helps.

God bless you.

 

[Araninski]

Originally Posted by gurneyhalleck1

I’ve never had a problem with the art, decoration, architecture, or visuals of Catholic and Orthodox church edifices. I think if anything it’s a strength.

I will confess that I have a bit of a problem when I see some people get a tad over the top in their devotions to these images. I see people kiss the feet of Mary over and over, sometimes ten times in a row, bow, then stand up, kiss her hands, then put flowers in front of the image. I’ve seen some strange devotions. While it may appear obvious to us that it’s just a ‘representation’ of the saint or Christ, some people after a while seem to forget that and get a tad out there IMO…

I don’t consider myself Catholic, however I do attend a Catholic Church every Sunday with my family because I like to congregate with my family, when the mass ends, there’s always this groups of people praying in front of Mary’s and Jesus crucified images and kissing them. That may be dangerous.

 

[eucharisteo]

Maybe you can answer.
When did the brass snake change from being an instrument of healing to an idol?
What did King Hezekiah see that made him destroy the brass snake?

I know the answers but they may not be what you want to hear. I also would like to see you write your point, which is obviously a desperate attempt to justify using a method that is so far from correct, “prooftexting”. Your example does not nullify the fact that Moses created the snake in the first place with a specific task in mind. The fact that the people later on fell into apostasy, so to speak, does not mean the snake in essence was bad but rather someone failed to educate themselves and the people. We see throughout scripture the Jews entering into a deep relationship with God and falling away over and over and over. It really reflects poorly upon the people of God not being ready for Him…yet required to continue to strive towards Him.

The point I was making earlier was the fact that you never hear of anyone taking the handkerchiefs away. It was not just some simple rare occasion. The people of that time were like that, they loved to possess objects to help them remember, contemplate upon the holy men and women they came across.

 

[eucharisteo]

I don’t consider myself Catholic, however I do attend a Catholic Church every Sunday with my family because I like to congregate with my family, when the mass ends, there’s always this groups of people praying in front of Mary’s and Jesus crucified images and kissing them. That may be dangerous.

It’s a cultural thing that sometimes goes overboard in my opinion, but I am not their judge because I don’t know what’s in their heart. I assume they are doing it like people used to do all the time as part of a personal ceremony, like carrying a statue of Mary around. Some people appear to be going overboard, but in reality are doing exactly what we have been saying. A kiss is a sign of respect.

There re people that come to our oratory and kiss the glass over the Blessed Sacrament. I find it disrespectful of the Presence of Christ. What we do with the Eucharist should be the center of this discussion considering that you guys do not believe it is the actual body, blood, soul and divinity of Christ. We literally worship Christ in the Eucharist. The Eucharist is not merely some symbol, though there are elements of that expression contained within it. I kiss my cross when I use it to pray.

How do you feel about the “Jesus Prayer”? How do you feel about a chotki?

 

[Berean2]

Frankly I have not meditated on those types of passages, they are so creepy…

An appropriate response to idolatry, I’d say. Ties right in with what the OP is trying to get at, n’est-ce pas?

 

[benidict]

Maybe you can answer.
When did the brass snake change from being an instrument of healing to an idol?
What did King Hezekiah see that made him destroy the brass snake?

yep. i know what your talking about. just be patient please. im brushing up on that story and have more to add. peace

 

[Teneas]

I didn’t mean to come off as “non-Catholic against Catholic” (but I understand that I’m a Protestant by default for not being Catholic). I also grew up with both, thoroughly innodated with each…and as you’ve said, BOTH (indeed) do have images, icons and artwork.

But here’s the problem I’m addressing [for both “groups” (so to say)] using some examples:

• Crucifixes are worn and used to cast out possessive demons (from victims). The deacon or priest will point the cross at the target (and at times touch the target), while speaking a chant to expel the invading spirit. Is their power to “cast out demons and devils” found in their cross (or their prayer-water)? If it’s not, why use it? It’s not necessary…unless their faith is found in it.
• Soldiers in war will wear a small cross around their necks in battle. Many will not leave their bunker unless it’s around them. Some even - and this occurs for many non-military too - will kiss the cross around their necks before performing a perilous task. Is their **protection **found in their relic or given directly from God? If from God, why is the relic necessary…unless the relic is the source of protection? I’ve even heard some say “I’m carrying my faith with me into battle”, but why is their faith stored in their jewelry?
• Many sick people will kneel and stare at an old, magnificent painting depicting an image of Christ. They will pray to it; look at it; talk to it, hoping for their salvation. Some will even travel to different lands (like Rome or Jerusalem) to be in old arcitecture that - even though it wasn’t around during the time of Christ - makes them feel closer to Christ if but just to speed up the healing process. Is their healing found in the building, structure or painting…or is it found in faith in Christ?

Now what if - in any of these examples - the object of prayer or “focus” is suddenly destroyed just before the person was about to use it? Would they feel “weakened”, “lost”, “faithless” or that there was no way to achieve their intended result [whether for desiring **Power

, Protection, or Healing]?

This is the question I’m asking…I’m not directing it at a specific religion, but at people and their “things”.

If these things are used to strengthen one’s faith, I see no wrong in them. God appeared as a burning bush, and thus it helped Moses to have faith it was God himself. Things are not wrong when used to bring you closer to Christ himself. If taken to far, as some Marian devotees often do, then it’s wrong and against the truth. People’s faith is not stored in their jewelry, it is stored in Christ, and we use some of these things to remind us, and bring us closer. I myself, even in my darkest times, never removed my crucifix. I often run my fingers over my crucifix when in prayer, thought, etc, and this reminds me that Christ himself had to carry the weight of that cross, felt those nails, and got those splinters. That if Christ can do, and I am to imitate Christ, I can carry my own cross.

These items, images, pictures, merely in most cases serve to remind us, and connect more with Christ. Some of us need nothing what so ever to truly remember everything we are supposed to. The rest of us, merely being human, often find comfort in our “things” that we hold dear, and we connect. Humans have always been that way, and if it brings us closer to Christ himself, there is nothing wrong with it at all.

Short answer: These things are not things that save us, but our faith in Christ.

 

[Teneas]

Can you answer these two questions Kathleen?
When did the brass snake go from an instrument of healing to an idol? And what did Kin Hezekiah see to make him want to destroy the brass snake.

You would doubt that Christ can come to us in images, pictures, statues? Why would someone question these things if they bring us closer to Christ? Does my faith have anything to do with your salvation? Or does it affect my own salvation alone? Is Christ himself tied to human means? Or can he actually meet us where we are in life? Perhaps some of us need these things to help us on our faith journey, to completely understand the will of Christ. Just maybe, you have more faith than the rest of us if you can hold 100% firm to your faith at all times without anything to remind you. I applaud you if this is completely true, and perhaps we all have a great deal to learn from you.

I only quoted the above from you because I assume you are saying that most of our “idols” are not one’s of healing, and only one’s of damnation at this point.

 

[benidict]

i wrote out a longer reply to the snake question, but somehow it did not post. needless to say. this is a good example of looking at something out of context. there was nothing wrong with the brass serpent in and of itself. by the time king hezechia came to the throne, the children of israel, were no longer worshiping the Lord their God in any way shape or form. they had digressed into paganism to a great degree. the brass serpent undoubtably went from being a reminder of the good God had done for them, to an object of fertility. since they were burning incense to it, they had apparently been ensnared in a serpent religion that was probably being practiced by the surrounding nations at the time. look in 2nd chronicles 29 for the whole story. the entire temple had been polluted. they had to cleanse everything. including the sacred vessles and the alter which were NOT thrown out. there is nothing in Catholocism that closely resembles anything the Children of Israel were practicing. we do not have fertility cults within our faith. or any other such nonsense. there really is no parallel historically or theologically between the two when looked at in context. im sure there is more to add. im sure i missed some points. peace

 

[guanophore]

My question centers on the statement that icons/paintings are on par with the written word. Are all in agreement?

In evangelistic goal, they are. The Church developed stained glass, murals, and other non-verbal art forms to communicate the gospel to the illiterate. They were not intended to replace the Scritpure, but to compliment and illustrate it.

The Church does not teach that art forms, however evangelistic, are inspired or inerrant.

 

[guanophore]

To the best of my knowledge there is agreement in how we define inspired. If we define the bible as being breathed by God into existence and we are to give icons the same honor. Tell me exactly what you are saying about icons?

No, icons and artwork are not considered inspired and inerrant as the Scripture is. They may have the same evangelistic goal, but their nature is diffferent. I will not deny that God may have divinely inspired some works of art, however, the Church has never ruled or affirmed on any of these - only the Sacred Scriptures.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

Icons and art on a par with the written Word of God? wow…ludicrous.

 

[guanophore]

since when have Catholics ever relied on images for salvation. and why are protestants so upset with Catholic art?

I think it is not the art, but the behavior of Catholics with the art. It appears to many of our separated brethren that we kneel or “bown down before” inanimate objects.

in the OP, I think the concern is that it appears an equanimity is being made between the art and the Scripture, which is in a class of it’s own.

Most of our separated brethren believe we have a low view of scripture anyway,because many catholics do not read their bibles regularly, and we do not attempt to force the scripture into a role it was never intended to play (authority).

 

[guanophore]

No.

Your turn. Never heard of it…is it that snake from the 10 commandments movie???

No, you better look it up. It is relevant to the thread, and it is a just question.

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

QUOTE=guanophore;6716975]I think it is not the art, but the behavior of Catholics with the art. It appears to many of our separated brethren that we kneel or “bown down before” inanimate objects.

in the OP, I think the concern is that it appears an equanimity is being made between the art and the Scripture, which is in a class of it’s own.

It has been my experience that it is only in the Catholic church were one can love God with all his heart, mind and strength. In the Catholic Liturgies the scriptures have always been primary, because it is in Liturgy where the Word of God is heard, the Word of God is felt with the heart, the Word of God becomes flesh and blood before our humanity when every Catholic has “tasted the Word of God that it is good”. Art is just one avenue to help our memory and minds on the pathway of Loving God with all our being. The ink on the page is not what is worshipped but the Word of God himself which is living and among us, as scripture dictates that “God dwells with the human race”. So it is with Catholic art, we don’t worship the paint, window or canvas these are just instruments that help the mind recall the Gospel events the art points us too in reflection and mediation where we love God with all of our mind.

I think non catholics are so concerned with entering the Kingdom of God like altar calls etc… and falsely see art as an idol which can prevent them from entering the Kingdom of God. To love God with all of our humanity takes practice, mediation, prayer, seeing, hearing and hearing the Word of God which produces “Faith”. The icon is an expression just as a word is heard to repent and believe the gospel, art reveals to the same thing to the eye, repent and believe in the gospel of Jesus Christ, when Catholics have the whole of our humanity to love God with all of our senses.

To a Catholic scripture is always primary because the Word of God is living, fully present in body, blood, soul and divinity at every Catholic liturgical Mass and when ever the Word of God made flesh is made present in the blessed sacrament.

Where can one find the sacred sciptures proclaimed, heard, see the Word of God made flesh, felt with the heart and tasted with our humanity and finally to consume the word of God with our humanity? except in the Apostolic Catholic Liturgical Mass these past 2000 years from the rising of the sun to its setting since pentecost until Jesus returns.

 

[Teneas]

Icons and art on a par with the written Word of God? wow…ludicrous.

I see my short time away from here still hasn’t taught you to actually read the posts. :tsktsk:

 

[Nicea325]

I don’t consider myself Catholic, however I do attend a Catholic Church every Sunday with my family because I like to congregate with my family, when the mass ends, there’s always this groups of people praying in front of Mary’s and Jesus crucified images and kissing them. That may be dangerous.

No more dangerous when I see Protestants on t.v. lifting up their Bibles up in their air as though they pratically worship a book.

 

[Dancelittleewok]

Hisalone,
From “Christian worship” from Catholic Encyclopedia:

The word worship (Saxon weorthscipe, “honour”; from worth, meaning “value”, “dignity”, “price”, and the termination, ship; Latin cultus) in its most general sense is homage paid to a person or a thing. In this sense we may speak of hero-worship, worship of the emperor, of demons, of the angels, even of relics, and especially of the Cross. This article will deal with Christian worship according to the following definition: homage paid to God, to Jesus Christ, to His saints, to the beings or even to the objects which have a special relation to God.
There are several degrees of this worship:

• if it is addressed directly to God, it is superior, absolute, supreme worship, or worship of adoration, or, according to the consecrated theological term, a worship of latria. This sovereign worship is due to God alone; addressed to a creature it would become idolatry.
• When worship is addressed only indirectly to God, that is, when its object is the veneration of martyrs, of angels, or of saints, it is a subordinate worship dependent on the first, and relative, in so far as it honours the creatures of God for their peculiar relations with Him; it is designated by theologians as the worship of dulia, a term denoting servitude, and implying, when used to signify our worship of distinguished servants of God, that their service to Him is their title to our veneration (cf. Chollet, loc. cit., col. 2407, and Bouquillon, Tractatus de virtute religionis, I, Bruges, 1880, 22 sq.).
• As the Blessed Virgin has a separate and absolutely supereminent rank among the saints, the worship paid to her is called hyperdulia (for the meaning and history of these terms see Suicer, Thesaurus ecclesiasticus, 1728).

In accordance with these principles it will readily be understood that a certain worship may be offered even to inanimate objects, such as the relics of a martyr, the Cross of Christ, the Crown of Thorns, or even the statue or picture of a saint. There is here no confusion or danger of idolatry, for this worship is subordinate or dependent. The relic of the saint is venerated because of the link which unites it with the person who is adored or venerated; while the statue or picture is regarded as having a conventional relation to a person who has a right to our homage — as being a symbol which reminds us of that person (see Vacant, Diet de théol. cath., s.v. Adoration, and authors cited in bibliography; also ADORATION; IDOLATRY; IMAGES; DEVOTION TO THE BLESSED VIRGIN MARY).

Source
If you can read, latria honor to anyone, anything other than God alone is idolatry. If these person/things are gods, then it stands to reason that they would honor as God is but they are not; honor is subordinate, dependent on God Himself. The relics are reminders because it connects us to the Person or saint visually; they are symbols, but not persons, or needing to be honor for themselves.

Man,by nature, is a rational animal; he is the perfect unification of material and spirit. To treat man as if he is a embodied angel denies mankind as he truly is.

 

[Dancelittleewok]

Maybe you can answer.
When did the brass snake change from being an instrument of healing to an idol?
What did King Hezekiah see that made him destroy the brass snake?

Incorrect usage or abuse of x doesn’t invalidate proper usuage of x. By your logic, we should outlaw marriage due to spousal abuse.