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runandsew
Guest
Yes it does !!!
Actually in this Scott Hahn article, some Protestant biblical scholars also thing it does.
catholic-pages.com/pope/hahn.asp
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Actually in this Scott Hahn article, some Protestant biblical scholars also thing it does.
catholic-pages.com/pope/hahn.asp
N
noma
Guest
And some equally prominant Bible scholars think it doesnât. How are we to know?Yes it does !!!
Actually in this Scott Hahn article, some Protestant biblical scholars also thing it does.
R
runandsew
Guest
Yeah, but do any prominant Catholic bible scholars think that it doesnât?
Oh wait donât answer that, I really donât want to know.
How are we to know?
By the fact that the books of Acts shows Peter as the lead Apostle.
By the writings of the church fathers.
By the constant teaching of the Church.
But the main way I would have to say is by faith.
A
asheeha
Guest
Noma,
Being at a spiritual crossroads is very difficult. I am experiencing something very similar in that respect.
The Pope, I wonder why our Lord didnât state things more clearlyâŚbut I wonder if we wouldnât just try to change the meaning of His words anyway.
I believe quite fundamentally that Christ desires that the Church be one and that oneness passes over not only to the spiritual but to the physical. The Church has been expressed as the family of God. In my nuclear family He has set an authority structure. And that structure has a defined âhead,â the husband, not to be a tyrant but to maintain unity and foster peace and love. I cannot imagine that God would call so many millions of people to be one without giving them the gift of a leader. How is unity (with fallible men) possible without the first among equals? Certainly this dogma wasnât as clearly defined by the ECF but neither did it probably need to be.
Reading Ignatius of Antioch I realized that unity was of great importance and that he called the Church to follow their Bishop as they would Christ. So, wouldnât it make sense that the Bishops too would have some sort of leader? Someone that represents the universal Church and not just a jurisdiction of it? How is the body of Christ to have hope of unity without a shepherd? I do realize that Christ is ultimately The Shepherd but I am coming to understand that He is gracing us with His presence through the leaders of the Church.
I am by no means a great scholar nor a Catholic one. Maybe my understanding does not line up with official Catholic doctrine, I hope to be corrected if I need to be, but this is how my Protestant mind came to understand the great gift of the Pope which offends so many of my Protestant brothers and sisters.
May you rest in the grace and peace of the Lord Jesus Christ as He draws you closer to Himself.
Being at a spiritual crossroads is very difficult. I am experiencing something very similar in that respect.
The Pope, I wonder why our Lord didnât state things more clearlyâŚbut I wonder if we wouldnât just try to change the meaning of His words anyway.
I believe quite fundamentally that Christ desires that the Church be one and that oneness passes over not only to the spiritual but to the physical. The Church has been expressed as the family of God. In my nuclear family He has set an authority structure. And that structure has a defined âhead,â the husband, not to be a tyrant but to maintain unity and foster peace and love. I cannot imagine that God would call so many millions of people to be one without giving them the gift of a leader. How is unity (with fallible men) possible without the first among equals? Certainly this dogma wasnât as clearly defined by the ECF but neither did it probably need to be.
Reading Ignatius of Antioch I realized that unity was of great importance and that he called the Church to follow their Bishop as they would Christ. So, wouldnât it make sense that the Bishops too would have some sort of leader? Someone that represents the universal Church and not just a jurisdiction of it? How is the body of Christ to have hope of unity without a shepherd? I do realize that Christ is ultimately The Shepherd but I am coming to understand that He is gracing us with His presence through the leaders of the Church.
I am by no means a great scholar nor a Catholic one. Maybe my understanding does not line up with official Catholic doctrine, I hope to be corrected if I need to be, but this is how my Protestant mind came to understand the great gift of the Pope which offends so many of my Protestant brothers and sisters.
May you rest in the grace and peace of the Lord Jesus Christ as He draws you closer to Himself.
M
mikeledes
Guest
Asheeha, thank you for your thoughtful contribution and welcome to the forum. :tiphat:
God Bless,
Michael
M
mikeledes
Guest
The private interpretation âployâ does not mean that the Catholic Church never allows private interpretation. Rather, no doctrine should originate from private interpretation. That is why God gave us teachers:
Ephesians 4:11-14
**11It was he who gave some to be apostles, some to be prophets, some to be evangelists, and some to be pastors and teachers, 12to prepare Godâs people for works of service, so that the body of Christ may be built up 13until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ.
14Then we will no longer be infants, tossed back and forth by the waves, and blown here and there by every wind of teaching and by the cunning and craftiness of men in their deceitful scheming. **
When a dispute arose in the early Church on the role of circumcision in salvation, the Christians turned to the teaching authority of the Church to resolve this matter:
Acts 15:1-2
1Some men came down from Judea to Antioch and were teaching the brothers: âUnless you are circumcised, according to the custom taught by Moses, you cannot be saved.â 2This brought Paul and Barnabas into sharp dispute and debate with them. So Paul and Barnabas were appointed, along with some other believers, to go up to Jerusalem to see the apostles and elders about this question.
The doctrines of Protestantism, however, originate from the private interpreration of individuals. Out of Martin Lutherâs private interpretation came the Lutheran Church. Out of Calvinâs private interpretation came the Presbyterian and Reformed Churches. Out of Wesleyâs private interpretation came the Methodist and Wesleyan Churches. They all claimed to be reading the plain reading of Scripture, and yet they came up with different conclusions. Since there is no infallible court of appeals to settle this dispute on the correct interpretation of Scripture in Protestantism, the result is the formation of new denominations and more confusion.
God bless,
Michael
Ephesians 4:11-14
**11It was he who gave some to be apostles, some to be prophets, some to be evangelists, and some to be pastors and teachers, 12to prepare Godâs people for works of service, so that the body of Christ may be built up 13until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ.
14Then we will no longer be infants, tossed back and forth by the waves, and blown here and there by every wind of teaching and by the cunning and craftiness of men in their deceitful scheming. **
When a dispute arose in the early Church on the role of circumcision in salvation, the Christians turned to the teaching authority of the Church to resolve this matter:
Acts 15:1-2
1Some men came down from Judea to Antioch and were teaching the brothers: âUnless you are circumcised, according to the custom taught by Moses, you cannot be saved.â 2This brought Paul and Barnabas into sharp dispute and debate with them. So Paul and Barnabas were appointed, along with some other believers, to go up to Jerusalem to see the apostles and elders about this question.
The doctrines of Protestantism, however, originate from the private interpreration of individuals. Out of Martin Lutherâs private interpretation came the Lutheran Church. Out of Calvinâs private interpretation came the Presbyterian and Reformed Churches. Out of Wesleyâs private interpretation came the Methodist and Wesleyan Churches. They all claimed to be reading the plain reading of Scripture, and yet they came up with different conclusions. Since there is no infallible court of appeals to settle this dispute on the correct interpretation of Scripture in Protestantism, the result is the formation of new denominations and more confusion.
God bless,
Michael
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noma
Guest
Thank you, Asheeha, for your kind words.
God bless.
This is a very important distinction, and arises when we speak of the difference between reasoning and rationalizing. Reasoning is open to truth, and rationalizing is figuring out a way to make oneâs current behavior sound like truth. The problem is, often, even those rationalizing believe that they are reasoning. I am unsure where I fall in this regard.
Do you then believe that there is salvation outside the Church? If you believe, rather, that salvation is only within the Church, there must either be, in a sense, some type of invisible Church, or only Roman Catholics (and Byzantineâs, etc.) will go to heaven.
There is no evidence it would be possible even with this first among equals, if one existed.
Should not the ideal shepherd be one without sin, in that case?
This is an excellent spirit to have. I, also, am looking to ultimately be corrected (though maybe in a different way, and by different temporal authorities). I will pray that, should the Roman Catholic Church be the True Church of Christ, you are never led astray from it. And that if the Roman Church is not True, you be shown that as well. Take your time before joining the Roman Church. I wish I had.
Thank you, for your concern, your kind words, and your prayers.
God bless.
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noma
Guest
But then we need to question why the Roman Church split (or why people split from the Roman Church). True, it doesnât happen as often, but it does happen. It is convenient to say that there are no Roman denominations, and this is true, but true trivially, true by definition. I can define a certain Church Body, any body, and claim that it has never split, simply by saying that any break is a break not of this Church Body, but a break away from this Church Body.
So it seems as though the Magisterial teachings of the Roman Church do not guarantee people will interpret them correctly, or even accept them. They do not guarantee that people will not leave from the teaching. The denominational split could be as much a fault of Roman thinking as it is of Protestant thinking.
Some may claim that it is the fault of not truly accepting Sola Scriptura, and that all those who have accept the exact same essential doctrine, and that those who do not therefore have this Scriptural doctrine have implicitely rejected Sola Scriptura.
We could call the denominationalism a Latin problem.
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mikeledes
Guest
A magisterium does not ensure universal agreement, but it serves to drastically minimize the confusion found in Protestantism. One of the premise of the Protestant Reformation was that the Bible is self-interpreting. Weâve already seen the confusion caused by that idea.
God Bless,
Michael
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noma
Guest
With this I have no quarrel, and through further study I find it impossible but to accept that Sola Scriptura is a deception from Satan. For, though it is consistent within itself, and though it may not be inconsistent with observable reality, it is inconsistent with the Nature of Christ, who would want to be with us to guide us in a way more intimate and imminent than by leaving only a manual.
Sola Scriptura offers to the nature of Christ what deism offers to the nature of God.
I thank all of you who have written, for you have helped me see and accept this important Truth.
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asheeha
Guest
Noma:
Thank you for your thoughts. I am testing the Spirit still trying to see truth. I appreciate your prayers too and you have given me great food for thought.
I have hope nowâŚnot that the first among equals is perfect in all areas but that Jesus left something solid, something more reliable than my own personal interpretation. He left a physical shepherd that is to be His hands and His feet in the life of the Universal Church.
I could go on for days and Iâm sure I am not saying anything unique!
Show me another way, now would be the optimal time.
Is the Orthodox way really better?
Thanks for the good advice. I will take it into consideration. I would love to hear your story.
But this topic is so far removed from this thread I would feel better if you messaged me directly.
blessings
-a
Thank you for your thoughts. I am testing the Spirit still trying to see truth. I appreciate your prayers too and you have given me great food for thought.
AhhhâŚI have done my homework or been VERY challenged in another thread. What is meant by âoutside the Churchâ? It seems that Baptism puts you in partial communion with the Church and the Church recognizes all those who are Baptized in the Name of the Father Son and Holy Spirit regardless who actually performs this sacrament. There is a âno faultâ clause in lumin gentium. So the answer is yes, I do believe there is some type of invisible Church, but that is because we have such a gracious God and Savior. I believe the heart of the Church should be Christâs and that heart is that we be one as He and the Father are oneâŚthat seems a bit more than spiritually so to me.
TrueâŚbut where is the hope? We must persevere and we must strive for the glorious riches that are ours in Christ Jesus. It is clear that Jesus gave as an authority structure. He didnât give us just any discipleâŚHe gave us the ones that He specifically called that he specifically challenged, taught, etc. Is it just coincidence that Peter is always mentioned first? Is it coincidence he is given Keys and that his name was actually changed to âRock?â Is it just coincidence that Jesus specifically told Peter to feed His sheep; is it just coincidence that this man is represented as having messed up even to the point of denying the Lord?
I have hope nowâŚnot that the first among equals is perfect in all areas but that Jesus left something solid, something more reliable than my own personal interpretation. He left a physical shepherd that is to be His hands and His feet in the life of the Universal Church.
I could go on for days and Iâm sure I am not saying anything unique!
Jesus is THE SHEPHERD! If Catholicism teaches that He is not then I want no part of it! But even in Evangelical land our pastors refer to themselves as shepherds. You as a married man, is Christ not the head of your home? But you are still called to be the head of that home. (and even still as imperfect as you are you are still given the call) And what does that meanâŚyou are to love your wife as Christ loved the Church and gave Himself up for it! Pretty mighty call. Many Evangelicals have robbed ourselves of the amazing gift God gives through His Church. We get it in part but not in full. We have changed the meaning of Church to the âlocal body of believersâ itâs very convenient and some of the churches are run more like democracies. But I will say that I have known what it means to be a part of the family of God in those simple Evangelical churches more than I have experienced in the Catholic Church so far, at least on a fellowship level.
Show me another way, now would be the optimal time.Is the Orthodox way really better?
Thanks for the good advice. I will take it into consideration. I would love to hear your story.
But this topic is so far removed from this thread I would feel better if you messaged me directly.
blessings
-a
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noma
Guest
My views on Sola Scriptura have somewhat evolved through this thread. Beyond that, most of what you have said is addressed in my thread.
Thank you, though, for an excellent and articulate defense of much of what is attractive in the Catholic Church.
I wish I knew. I am exploring it currently. I would strongly suggest, before you become Roman Catholic, to go to an Orthodox service or two, and ask an Orthodox Priest what the difference between Orthodox and Roman Catholics are. It is always good to be informed.
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asheeha
Guest
duhâŚI didnât think of thatâŚI will learn in time.
blessings
-alysha
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dessert
Guest
Asheea and Noma
There is a thread that you might like to read , it is not long but was very helpfull to me as to learning about shepherds and the importance of being lead by a good leader. It is in sacred scripture forum Psalm 23 has a blue check after it page 4 the last post by contempl. for Dec 22. It is very instructional and for all protestants and Catholics not really slighted towards Catholics and Iâm sure you could open it up again and get more discussion and questions answered with it.
Thank you for all your posts and hope and trust Jesus will answer all for you.
dessert
There is a thread that you might like to read , it is not long but was very helpfull to me as to learning about shepherds and the importance of being lead by a good leader. It is in sacred scripture forum Psalm 23 has a blue check after it page 4 the last post by contempl. for Dec 22. It is very instructional and for all protestants and Catholics not really slighted towards Catholics and Iâm sure you could open it up again and get more discussion and questions answered with it.
Thank you for all your posts and hope and trust Jesus will answer all for you.
dessert- Status