The Private Interpretation Ploy

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The point of Divine Revelation was to dispel uncertainty in many areas (i.e. the Nature of God, God’s plan of salvation, etc.). Uncertainty on Divine Revelation is a product of rebellion, human sinfulness.

God Bless,
Michael
 
One can read the CC position and know it. Anyone can read the bible and have an opinion that is contradicted almost as soon as one forms it. There is no one authority that can be traced back to Peter and Christ except the pope.
According to the Roman Position. And the difference you name is real: one is harder to understand than the other. But there is no difference beyond that.
The Pope’s interpretation is gauranteed by Christ as infallible. No one else’s is.
How do we know that this is true?
How so? The Sola person is their own authority. They are the final arbiter. Again, for the Catholic the pope is the final arbiter.
But how are we to understand what the Pope is really saying, unless we interpret his words for ourselves?
It is by right reason. It is often quite easy to see who is decieved and who is logical. Do you think it is only by majority you know an apple is really an apple and not a cloud?
No. I think it is by private interpretation.
It is not about a mathematical certainty. These are philosophical issues with philosophical proofs.
And philosophical proofs are only as good as their basic assumptions. There are many good proofs for God’s non-existence from the assumptions of the Sartrian Existentialist, just as Roman Catholics have good proofs for the Pope, from the assumptions that the Pope gives them.
My point is there is a tremendous difference betwen “intepreting” arcane translated and seemingly contradicting sentences in the bible and grasping the words we all use each day to communicate intelligently.
I entirely agree. The difference is that one is harder.
 
The point of Divine Revelation was to dispel uncertainty in many areas (i.e. the Nature of God, God’s plan of salvation, etc.). Uncertainty on Divine Revelation is a product of rebellion, human sinfulness.
How do you prove this is true?
 
Some controversialists claim a need for an infallible interpreter for an infallible Bible therefore requires an infallible student. This shows a serious misunderstanding of the concept of infallibility. The human mind is designed to be able to discern the truth and it usually does. It is not necessary for it to be infallible to do so. The method of trial and error is sufficient. Unfortunately, there are limits to the ability of the human mind to learn the truth. In particular, the mind is strongly influenced by prejudices and presuppositions that may make some conclusions unacceptable. It is also possible to draw incorrect conclusions from fallacious use of the reasoning faculty. One may also draw improper conclusions from partial data. Furthermore, the mind may have problems comprehending those matters the content of which is beyond our immediate experience. Nevertheless, with proper guidance, preparation, and a good source of correct comprehensive information, the human mind is capable of coming to true knowledge without needing to be formally infallible itself.

Infallibility is not a guarantee that one will arrive at the full truth. Instead, it is a guarantee that the individual so endowed will not make any errors in what he says. Students learn from their mistakes. While it would be nice if they got everything right all the time, it is not necessary for them to do so in order to learn the truth. An infallible teacher merely guarantees that the student will not be presented with any erroneous information. The student can then use his intellectual powers to learn correctly what he has been taught. He may make mistakes, but with recourse to an infallible teacher and his natural intelligence, the average person can sort this out to arrive at true knowledge.

We must also draw a distinction between the different types of infallibility. The Bible is a static product. It is a text, not an authority. It cannot interpret itself. It is infallible in content but only when interpreted correctly. It cannot stand on its own. As the old saying goes, “A text without a context is a pretext.” Biblical infallibility is therefore contextual and not self-evident. As such the Bible is only materially infallible.

The Magisterium. on the other hand, is not a static text but a living authority under the direct superintendence of the Holy Spirit. It is dynamic and self-aware. It can respond to questions and because of the special privilege granted to it by God, it cannot err. God is the one who is both the formal and efficient cause of infallibility. This means that when the Magisterium operates in the proper context with the proper power acting on it (i.e., under the superintendence of the Holy Spirit) its statements are always infallible. The Magisterium is therefore the instrumental cause of infallible teaching.

Material infallibility is not sufficient to finally guarantee infallible teaching. You need to apply the proper context (formal cause: the plan of God) with the proper power (efficient cause: superintendence of the Holy Spirit) applied by the proper authority (the instrumental cause: the Magisterium) to obtain the desired end (final cause: true teaching). Once you have that, then the human mind can use its proper powers of discernment to learn the truth.

Some Protestant controversialists claim that the decision of the Catholic to believe in an infallible Magisterium is the equivalent of the individual claiming infallibility for himself. This is not true. If you go to the doctor and he tells you what must be done for your ailment, when you submit to his treatment, you are not declaring your own medical competence. You are recognizing his authority in medical matters and trusting in his judgment. In submitting to the Magisterium, we are deferring to the will of God as he has revealed it to his Church. We are not asserting our infallibility, but rather our faith in God’s promises.

When the Protestant reads his Bible and decides for himself what to believe, he is the one who is asserting his own infallibility because he is not submitting to any authority other than his own interpretation. If some Protestant group wishes to defer authority to its ministers or its confessional statements, it is asserting the infallibility of its ministers or founders over and against that of the historic Church. They often allege that they merely are asserting the infallibility of the Bible, but then we have the problem of settling disputes over discordant interpretations. It is the interpretation whose correctness is being questioned, not the correctness of the text it was based upon. As such, it must be the interpreter who needs to be infallible not the source which he interprets. As we noted in the previous section on perspicuity, it is not always possible to completely understand the biblical text even by the experts. Ultimately, the Protestant system is unworkable.

Quoted from Dr. Art Sippo
 
When the Protestant reads his Bible and decides for himself what to believe, he is the one who is asserting his own infallibility because he is not submitting to any authority other than his own interpretation. If some Protestant group wishes to defer authority to its ministers or its confessional statements, it is asserting the infallibility of its ministers or founders over and against that of the historic Church. They often allege that they merely are asserting the infallibility of the Bible, but then we have the problem of settling disputes over discordant interpretations. It is the interpretation whose correctness is being questioned, not the correctness of the text it was based upon. As such, it must be the interpreter who needs to be infallible not the source which he interprets. As we noted in the previous section on perspicuity, it is not always possible to completely understand the biblical text even by the experts. Ultimately, the Protestant system is unworkable.

Quoted from Dr. Art Sippo
Randy,

I first want to thank you very much for your research into this topic, and for taking my question seriously. This article was exceptionally useful. I am hoping to e-mail or write Dr. Sippo, if I can find his contact information.

The main reason I would be interested in writing him, besides other tangential questions it would seem he would be very apt at answering, is that the article you have listed here, while it does touch upon what I have been asking about, does not directly address it.

I am not claiming that an “infallible reader” (whatever this should mean) is necessary, nor that an infallible interpreter would require each member of the Church to be infallible.

I am saying that the situation of Sola Scriptura, in terms of our certainty in knowledge, is not helped by introducing an infallible interpreter.

For Scripture plus infallible interpreter to be qualitatively different from Sola Scriptura, the person hearing the infallible interpreter would have to know exactly what the infallible interpreter meant. But the only way anyone can even attempt to discern meaning is by interpreting what someone has said, or written, etc. So, though it may be easier to discern what Scriptures mean if there did exist an infallible interpreter, this in no means removes the necessity for everyone to privately interpret either the Scriptures, or the interpreter of the Scriptures.
 
Not only is one harder, one is an error. That is where faith enters the picture.
And as I do not have the faith, and do not want the faith, it makes the distinction moot.

A qualitative distinction between Scripture and Magisterium versus just Scripture, such that just Scripture is favored, would only arise if one already accepted the Magisterium.

As I do not accept the Magisterium, I cannot see the distinction between Sola Scriptura, and Scripture + Magisterium.
 
Randy,

I first want to thank you very much for your research into this topic, and for taking my question seriously. This article was exceptionally useful. I am hoping to e-mail or write Dr. Sippo, if I can find his contact information.

The main reason I would be interested in writing him, besides other tangential questions it would seem he would be very apt at answering, is that the article you have listed here, while it does touch upon what I have been asking about, does not directly address it.

I am not claiming that an “infallible reader” (whatever this should mean) is necessary, nor that an infallible interpreter would require each member of the Church to be infallible.

I am saying that the situation of Sola Scriptura, in terms of our certainty in knowledge, is not helped by introducing an infallible interpreter.

For Scripture plus infallible interpreter to be qualitatively different from Sola Scriptura, the person hearing the infallible interpreter would have to know exactly what the infallible interpreter meant. But the only way anyone can even attempt to discern meaning is by interpreting what someone has said, or written, etc. So, though it may be easier to discern what Scriptures mean if there did exist an infallible interpreter, this in no means removes the necessity for everyone to privately interpret either the Scriptures, or the interpreter of the Scriptures.
Noma-

You know that I have always respected your honesty, and though we may lose you to Orthodoxy, you are generally fair in your criticisms. 🙂

I do not have Art’s email address, but you (or anyone else) may post your questions at the Speak Your Mind forum hosted by Patrick Madrid and Envoy Magazine. Art frequents that board and will respond to you there. Please know that he is a physician, so his hours are unusual and it may be a day or so before he sees your post. In fact, all the discussions there take place at a much slower pace than in this forum, generally speaking.

envoymagazine.com

Click on the big blue circle that says, “Speak Your Mind.”

I look forward to seeing you over there.
 
Noma-

You know that I have always respected your honesty, and though we may lose you to Orthodoxy, you are generally fair in your criticisms. 🙂
Speaking of Orthodoxy, I am attending, with my wife, an Eastern Orthodox Church regularly.

Though there are a few things I disagree with, and many things I do not understand, there is much I like about them.

My biggest problem is the issue of St. Peter’s successor. The Orthodox explanation is either inadequate, or I misunderstand it. So it seems as though the Roman Catholic Church must be the one true Church of Christ, or that all the successors of the Apostles are also successors of St. Peter, or that everyone who is Christian is a successor of St. Peter. I am leaning toward the third option currently, mostly because I cannot think of a way to justify the claims of the current chair of St. Peter outside of that chair.

If someone accepts that the Keys to the Kingdom of Heaven given to St. Peter were a sign of authority, and that this sign of authority was intended to be handed down through the Papal office, we must get that interpretation from somewhere. If we get that interpretation from the Pope, then we have already given him the authority to interpretation. So we accept the Pope’s authority because of the Pope’s authority. And this is not reasonable.

The consequence seems to be unmitigated uncertainty, almost a religious solipsism. Knowing that this solipsism is necessarily temporary is a relief; after all, I will die and Christ will reveal Himself to me. But it would be better if there were some method of certainty for today.

Thank you always for your openness, and thank the forum for its openness, to discuss different views, and entertain different (sometimes unorthodox, sometimes insane) notions with reason and with grace.
 
That’s not what I’m arguing. I accept that 2+2=4 based on how I interpret the symbols. There is no infallible authority telling me that 2+2=4. There is only my interpretation of the symbols, and my application of that interpretation. Insofar as it agrees with the interpretation of most people around me, I can use it as they do.
Here is an interpretation for you 2+2 does not always = 4

If you are speaking about 2a+2a does = 4a

but if you are talking about 2a + 2b it = 2a+2b

ie; 2apples +2nannas = 2apples +2nannas not 4 appannas
if you think that 2a +2b = 4(a+b)you are wrong or maybe right but this is more accurate 2+2 =a+b but if you want to mix the fruit then that would mean 4xa+b= 4xa(b)=16 whatever juice I guess
so there is another interp for you as you are making juice or wine? 😛 yucky wine
I know this isn’t quite right it has been awhile since algebra
so I should leave it to people who have studied.
Have I got you confused yet?

Correct? If you question everything from authority you will end up with a very unruley life.

The Pope has the authority because Jesus said so.
 
Matthew 16:18-19 for starters.

Haven’t we already covered this a few thousand times? :banghead:
Many. But the question still remains. How can I be certain that this passage has anything to do with authority given to the Pope? How can I unless I already accept the authority I am trying to establish exists?
 
From the Douay Rheims Bible: Matthew 16: 16-19.

16 Simon Peter answered and said: Thou art Christ, the Son of the living God. 17 And Jesus answering, said to him: Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-Jona: because flesh and blood hath not revealed it to thee, but my Father who is in heaven. 18 And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. 19 And I will give to thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven. And whatsoever thou shalt bind upon earth, it shall be bound also in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose upon earth, it shall be loosed also in heaven. 20 Then he commanded his disciples, that they should tell no one that he was Jesus the Christ.

18 “Thou art Peter”… As St. Peter, by divine revelation, here made a solemn profession of his faith of the divinity of Christ; so in recompense of this faith and profession, our Lord here declares to him the dignity to which he is pleased to raise him: viz., that he to whom he had already given the name of Peter, signifying a rock, St. John 1. 42, should be a rock indeed, of invincible strength, for the support of the building of the church; in which building he should be, next to Christ himself, the chief foundation stone, in quality of chief pastor, ruler, and governor; and should have accordingly all fulness of ecclesiastical power, signified by the keys of the kingdom of heaven.
18 “Upon this rock”… The words of Christ to Peter, spoken in the vulgar language of the Jews which our Lord made use of, were the same as if he had said in English, Thou art a Rock, and upon this rock I will build my church. So that, by the plain course of the words, Peter is here declared to be the rock, upon which the church was to be built: Christ himself being both the principal foundation and founder of the same. Where also note, that Christ, by building his house, that is, his church, upon a rock, has thereby secured it against all storms and floods, like the wise builder, St. Matt. 7. 24, 25.

18 “The gates of hell”… That is, the powers of darkness, and whatever Satan can do, either by himself, or his agents. For as the church is here likened to a house, or fortress, built on a rock; so the adverse powers are likened to a contrary house or fortress, the gates of which, that is, the whole strength, and all the efforts it can make, will never be able to prevail over the city or church of Christ. By this promise we are fully assured, that neither idolatry, heresy, nor any pernicious error whatsoever shall at any time prevail over the church of Christ.

19 “Loose upon earth”… The loosing the bands of temporal punishments due to sins, is called an indulgence; the power of which is here granted.
 
From the Douay Rheims Bible: Matthew 16: 16-19.
This is one of the many interpretations. Are we to accept that Douay Rheims interpretation is protected from error? If so, why?

Matthew Henry says:

"(2.) The foundation on which it is built is, this Rock. Let the architect do his part ever so well, if the foundation be rotten, the building will not stand; let us therefore see what the foundation is, and it must be meant of Christ, for other foundation can no man lay. See Isa. xxviii. 16.

[1.] The church is built upon a rock; a firm, strong, and lasting foundation, which time will not waste, nor will it sink under the weight of the building. Christ would not build his house upon the sand, for he knew that storms would arise. A rock is high, Ps. lxi. 2. Christ’s church does not stand upon a level with this world; a rock is large, and extends far, so does the church’s foundation; and the more large, the more firm; those are not the church’s friends that narrow its foundation.

[2.] It is built upon this rock; thou art Peter, which signifies a stone or rock; Christ gave him that name when he first called him (John i. 42), and here he confirms it; “Peter, thou dost answer thy name, thou art a solid, substantial disciple, fixed and stayed, and one that there is some hold of. Peter is thy name, and strength and stability are with thee. Thou art not shaken with the waves of men’s fluctuating opinions concerning me, but established in the present truth,” 2 Pet. i. 12. From the mention of this significant name, occasion is taken for this metaphor of building upon a rock.

First, Some by this rock understand Peter himself as an apostle, the chief, though not the prince, of the twelve, senior among them, but not superior over them. The church is built upon the foundation of the apostles, Eph. ii. 20. The first stones of that building were laid in and by their ministry; hence their names are said to be written in the foundations of the new Jerusalem, Rev. xxi. 14. Now Peter being that apostle by whose hand the first stones of the church were laid, both in Jewish converts (Acts ii.), and in the Gentile converts (Acts x.), he might in some sense be said to be the rock on which it was built. Cephas was one that seemed to be a pillar, Gal. ii. 9. But it sounds very harsh, to call a man that only lays the first stone of a building, which is a transient act, the foundation on which it is built, which is an abiding thing. Yet if it were so, this would not serve to support the pretensions of the Bishop of Rome; for Peter had no such headship as he claims, much less could he derive it to his successors, least of all to the Bishops of Rome, who, whether they are so in place or no, is a question, but that they are not so in the truth of Christianity, is past all question.

Secondly, Others, by this rock, understand Christ; “Thou art Peter, thou hast the name of a stone, but upon this rock, pointing to himself, I will build my church.” Perhaps he laid his hand on his breast, as when he said, Destroy this temple (John ii. 19), when he spoke of the temple of his body. Then he took occasion from the temple, where he was, so to speak of himself, and gave occasion to some to misunderstand him of that; so here he took occasion from Peter, to speak of himself as the Rock, and gave occasion to some to misunderstand him of Peter. But this must be explained by those many scriptures which speak of Christ as the only Foundation of the church; see 1 Cor. iii. 11; 1 Pet. ii. 6. Christ is both its Founder and its Foundation; he draws souls, and draws them to himself; to him they are united, and on him they rest and have a constant dependence.

Thirdly, Others by this rock understand this confession which Peter made of Christ, and this comes all to one with understanding it of Christ himself. It was a good confession which Peter witnessed, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God; the rest concurred with him in it. “Now,” saith Christ, “this is that great truth upon which I will build my church.” 1. Take away this truth itself, and the universal church falls to the ground. If Christ be not the Son of God, Christianity is a cheat, and the church is a mere chimera; our preaching is vain, your faith is vain, and you are yet in your sins, 1 Cor. xv. 14-17. If Jesus be not the Christ, those that own him are not of the church, but deceivers and deceived. 2. Take away the faith and confession of this truth from any particular church, and it ceases to be a part of Christ’s church, and relapses to the state and character of infidelity. This is articulus stantis et cadentis ecclesia—that article, with the admission or the denial of which the church either rises or falls; “the main hinge on which the door of salvation turns;” those who let go this, do not hold the foundation; and though they may call themselves Christians, they give themselves the lie; for the church is a sacred society, incorporated upon the certainty and assurance of this great truth; and great it is, and has prevailed."
 
Where did Jesus say this?
I am suprised that you didn’t know this, but here it goes again:

Matthew 16:18-19
And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the powers of death shall not prevail against it. I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."

John 21:15-17
When they had finished breakfast, Jesus said to Simon Peter, “Simon, son of John, do you love me more than these?” He said to him, “Yes, Lord; you know that I love you.” He said to him, “Feed my lambs.” A second time he said to him, “Simon, son of John, do you love me?” He said to him, “Yes, Lord; you know that I love you.” He said to him, “Tend my sheep.” He said to him the third time, “Simon, son of John, do you love me?” Peter was grieved because he said to him the third time, “Do you love me?” And he said to him, “Lord, you know everything; you know that I love you.” Jesus said to him, “Feed my sheep.”

Luke 22:31-32
“Simon, Simon, behold, Satan demanded to have you, that he might sift you like wheat, but I have prayed for you that your faith may not fail; and when you have turned again, strengthen your brethren.”

Just because you don’t believe that this passages point to Peter being the leader of the early church or as we refer to him as Pope (spiritual father) doesn’t mean it isn’t so.
You can always go the the early Church fathers and see what they wrote, because they reflected what the early Christians believed.
But I guess if you did believe this you probably would convert to the Catholic Church.
 
Just because you don’t believe that this points to Peter being the leader of the early church or as we refer to him as Pope (spiritual father) doesn’t mean it isn’t so.
And just because you say it does does not mean that it is so.
 
Many. But the question still remains. How can I be certain that this passage has anything to do with authority given to the Pope? How can I unless I already accept the authority I am trying to establish exists?
Jesus looked at them and said, “With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.” (Matthew 19:26)

Pray, Noma.
 
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