The pro-life common sense clincher

[Gigmaster]

Not at all. You brought up the credibility issue, and any lawyer will tell you that someone who changes their story (regardless of time frame) has credibility issues. You not only switched veiwpoint 3 times, but switched to the extreme end of the spectum each time. If you need marriage counceling, would you go to someone with 5 last names? She probably won’t help your marriage, but I’d bet she could tell you how to get through a divorce…

You were trying to council the Catholic Church on their credibility. I merely made the logical observation.

On your second point…now you’ve been a atheist for 27 years. Before, it was 25 years. Don’t you know how long you have been an atheist? You’ve changed your story once again. So how are we supposed to regard you as an authority on credibility? As for other people converting to another religion…they didn’t question the Churchs credibility…you did.

I made no insults, merely observations. I you feel they are insults, then perhaps you should examine your views more closely. That is usually a sign of insecurity. Possibly, deep down, you are not as sure of being an atheist as you think you are. And you amply demonsttrated my point that most Pro-Choice people are wishy-washy, and go with whatever is Politically Correct at the time. It’s OK to murder your unborn baby, but an adult who commits murder should not receive the same consideration??? Come on… It’s a woman’s body and her choice when it comes to murdering an innocent baby she is carrying, but she can’t use the same body to feed herself and keep a roof over her head when the chips are down??? You can’t have it both ways.

On point 3. The same argument can NOT be used for contraception, because no form of contraception involve killing a human being. Contraception is not much different from Abstinance (which in itself is a form of contraception). It is preventing pregnancy…not terminating a life. This is the typical smoke-screen argument that Pro-Abortion people try to foster, not realizing that it is the same as comparing locking your front door, as opposed to shooting somone who enters your house uninvited. I never said contraception was immoral, and it’s not even the issue. And, how do you know that 75% of all Catholics practice contraception? How do you know it’s not 90%, or 30%? You don’t even know how long you’ve been an atheist. And as an atheist (for however long…), how often do you go to Catholic Churches and take surveys? There’s that credibility thing again…

And on your last point, I already agreed that Atheist do not care about anything but themselves, but you actually made the point better than I did. So, you can spout off all you want about atheism, insult others beliefs, but the rest of the world has to “keep it to themselves”? As I said, you made my points beautifully.

Thank You.

QUOTE=bpuharic;6464712]

Seems sort of strange being counseled on credibility from someone who was a Protestant, then a Catholic, and now an atheist. Can’t you make up your mind? What are you going to be next week? A Buddhist?, or Muslim?

I wasn’t aware that 27 years of being an atheist was ‘next week.’ And what of Catholics who convert from another religion? Can’t they ‘make up their minds?’ It’s an irrelevant observation to dodge the issue.

This is typical of most Pro-Choice people…they agree with the Death Penalty, and support abortion. A woman can choose to kill her baby, but not to use her body to stay off welfare (Prostitution) if she ‘chooses’.

I could equally say your insults are characteristic of most ‘prolife’ people. You make ANOTHER irrelevant comment. Care to address the issue?

I have the ultimate killer argument against abortion, and I always win. I tell people that if abortions had been legal in the 1940s and 50s, I wouldn’t be here.

And the same argument can be made against contraception. So you’re saying that 75% of Catholics are immoral since they use contraception in good conscience? If this is your best argument, it’s rather easily countered.

Remember, Jesus also suffered, so that we could all live in God’s grace.

I’m an atheist, so what Jesus did is not of concern to me. If you believe Jesus did something, keep it to yourself and don’t try to make me believe it.

 

[bpuharic]

Not at all. You brought up the credibility issue, and any lawyer will tell you that someone who changes their story (regardless of time frame) has credibility issues.

Uh, no. I was 19 when I converted to Catholicism. So you’re saying NO converts can be trusted? Interesting take on the Christian religion. That, of course, excludes Peter, Paul, James, John, etc. etc.

You not only switched veiwpoint 3 times, but switched to the extreme end of the spectum each time.

Irrelevant

You were trying to council the Catholic Church on their credibility. I merely made the logical observation.

Nope. You made a dodge. And you got called on it. You can’t stick to the topic under discussion; no wonder. You have a weak case. But good luck in trying to tell Catholics how Peter was fickle because he was a convert!

On your second point…now you’ve been a atheist for 27 years. Before, it was 25 years. Don’t you know how long you have been an atheist? You’ve changed your story once again. So how are we supposed to regard you as an authority on credibility? As for other people converting to another religion…they didn’t question the Churchs credibility…you did.

Another dodge.

Possibly, deep down, you are not as sure of being an atheist as you think you are. And you amply demonsttrated my point that most Pro-Choice people are wishy-washy, and go with whatever is Politically Correct at the time.

If I’m fickle, I stand with Peter, Paul and millions of other converts who’ve done the same. But go ahead. Push the point. Tell us how every 19 year old is a model of consistency. Continue dodging the issue.

It’s OK to murder your unborn baby, but an adult who commits murder should not receive the same consideration??? Come on… It’s a woman’s body and her choice when it comes to murdering an innocent baby she is carrying, but she can’t use the same body to feed herself and keep a roof over her head when the chips are down??? You can’t have it both ways.

I notice you say NOTHING about infant mortality rates that, in the US, are twice those of other countries. More evidence of my contention: pro lifers don’t care about babies. They’re obsessed with women and sex. The powerful? They couldn’t care less.

On point 3. The same argument can NOT be used for contraception, because no form of contraception involve killing a human being

Circular reasoning. You take it as self evident that abortion is killing then say it’s proof abortion is killing. So far your argument boils down to that you’re right, and that proves you’re right!

.
How do you know it’s not 90%, or 30%? You don’t even know how long you’ve been an atheist. And as an atheist (for however long…), how often do you go to Catholic Churches and take surveys? There’s that credibility thing again…

Unlike you, I can read polls and the news. I suggest you do the same.

And on your last point, I already agreed that Atheist do not care about anything but themselves,

Another insult. No surprise. I said I don’t care about Jesus. Neither do Jews. Nor Muslims. Are you saying that only Christians are good people?

 

[Gigmaster]

(LOL) Wow! I don’t even have to respond. This is way too easy.

I really hope you don’t have any firearms in the house, because if handle them like you do your arguments, you probably don’t have any toes left at all…

I gotta go back to work. Everyone have a great day!

Deus vobiscum

Gigmaster;6465249:

Not at all. You brought up the credibility issue, and any lawyer will tell you that someone who changes their story (regardless of time frame) has credibility issues.

Uh, no. I was 19 when I converted to Catholicism. So you’re saying NO converts can be trusted? Interesting take on the Christian religion. That, of course, excludes Peter, Paul, James, John, etc. etc.

You not only switched veiwpoint 3 times, but switched to the extreme end of the spectum each time.

Irrelevant

You were trying to council the Catholic Church on their credibility. I merely made the logical observation.

Nope. You made a dodge. And you got called on it. You can’t stick to the topic under discussion; no wonder. You have a weak case. But good luck in trying to tell Catholics how Peter was fickle because he was a convert!

On your second point…now you’ve been a atheist for 27 years. Before, it was 25 years. Don’t you know how long you have been an atheist? You’ve changed your story once again. So how are we supposed to regard you as an authority on credibility? As for other people converting to another religion…they didn’t question the Churchs credibility…you did.

Another dodge.

Possibly, deep down, you are not as sure of being an atheist as you think you are. And you amply demonsttrated my point that most Pro-Choice people are wishy-washy, and go with whatever is Politically Correct at the time.

If I’m fickle, I stand with Peter, Paul and millions of other converts who’ve done the same. But go ahead. Push the point. Tell us how every 19 year old is a model of consistency. Continue dodging the issue.

It’s OK to murder your unborn baby, but an adult who commits murder should not receive the same consideration??? Come on… It’s a woman’s body and her choice when it comes to murdering an innocent baby she is carrying, but she can’t use the same body to feed herself and keep a roof over her head when the chips are down??? You can’t have it both ways.

I notice you say NOTHING about infant mortality rates that, in the US, are twice those of other countries. More evidence of my contention: pro lifers don’t care about babies. They’re obsessed with women and sex. The powerful? They couldn’t care less.

On point 3. The same argument can NOT be used for contraception, because no form of contraception involve killing a human being

Circular reasoning. You take it as self evident that abortion is killing then say it’s proof abortion is killing. So far your argument boils down to that you’re right, and that proves you’re right!

.
How do you know it’s not 90%, or 30%? You don’t even know how long you’ve been an atheist. And as an atheist (for however long…), how often do you go to Catholic Churches and take surveys? There’s that credibility thing again…

Unlike you, I can read polls and the news. I suggest you do the same.

And on your last point, I already agreed that Atheist do not care about anything but themselves,

Another insult. No surprise. I said I don’t care about Jesus. Neither do Jews. Nor Muslims. Are you saying that only Christians are good people?

 

[Phil_Stone]

The real problem is that while it is easy to equivocate over whether human and person are the same thing, it is very hard to demonstrate it in an argument without refering to religious beliefs.

Likewise it is easy to equivocate between moral beliefs and religious beliefs, but also easy to see that while many moral beliefs are held on the basis of religious beliefs, many moral beliefs are not ( for example, the idea of religous freedom,) and it is generally upon the latter that we chose to build our laws, even to the extent that they are coherent with many religous laws.

As for images, or genetics, many people these days have had the experiance of seeing the body of a loved one persist biologically after their passing. They know that personhood is more than simple biological persistance, as in a heartbeat.

 

[Charlemagne_II]

Doc Keele

I agree bpuharic. It’s more about control than the end result.

Yeah, more birth control and less abortion!

 

[Doc_Keele]

Doc Keele

I agree bpuharic. It’s more about control than the end result.

Yeah, more birth control and less abortion!

Well according to the “experts” on here that solution is not acceptable - you cannot try and reduce abortions through artificial birth control.

 

[Charlemagne_II]

*Well according to the “experts” on here that solution is not acceptable - you cannot try and reduce abortions through artificial birth control. *

Did I say “artificial” birth control? You apparently haven’t heard that the Church approves the rhythm method.

Moreover, we are always obliged to consider the lesser of two evils as the more preferable. Birth control is obviously the lesser evil. Even an atheist should be able to see that. From the atheist point of view, it certainly should be about control … rhythm or artificial.

Common sense?

 

[Doc_Keele]

*Well according to the “experts” on here that solution is not acceptable - you cannot try and reduce abortions through artificial birth control. *

Did I say “artificial” birth control? You apparently haven’t heard that the Church approves the rhythm method

Vatican Roulette? What’s the chances of getting the wider population to practice that successfully?

Moreover, we are always obliged to consider the lesser of two evils as the more preferable. Birth control is obviously the lesser evil. Even an atheist should be able to see that. From the atheist point of view, it certainly should be about control … rhythm or artificial.

Common sense?

It’s commonsense that we should prefer the lesser of two evils as preferable:thumbsup: I agree with you on this particular application of commonsense
But apparently that is not acceptable for Catholics, according to the “experts” here. Kage_ar for example says that ABC is not preferable to abortion:shrug:

 

[nordskoven]

No life, no choice! If you’re pro-choice, you’re pro-life.

That’s why the genocidal New Age philosophy of planet “cleansing” as forcible elevation to a higher plane is bogus. Sure, you’re going to see Jesus, but there’s no choice involved, and choice is what defines man as more than animal. I am not exaggerating the history of the New Age embrace of “cleansing” as documented in THE RAINBOW SWASTIKA (online).

Abortion is just another kind of mass murder, what the New Age called eugenic “cleansing.” Legal abortion in America was quashed long ago by the American Medical Association/AMA and women’s rights activist Susan B. Anthony, God bless 'em, only to be revived by racist elitist Margaret Sanger, founder of Planned Parenthood, who wanted to “cleanse” the land of all brown-eyed people. That meant Africans; and all those Jewish and Catholic immigrants–though Jews and Catholics now constitute the wealthiest demographic in the U.S.A. Sanger financed African pastors who would promote abortion and birth control as a kind of self-genocide. Times change and prices go up. One pro-life legislator got 3/4 of a million for his vote in support of Obamacare. God help us.

 

[Charlemagne_II]

Vatican Roulette? What’s the chances of getting the wider population to practice that successfully?

Undisciplined sex has produced a nation suffering from sexual diseases as it has never suffered before. What are the chances of getting the wider population to give up promiscuous sex? That doesn’t mean there isn’t a way to do it and we shouldn’t give it a try. Yes, I think you are right. It’s all about control … self control!!!

No one has ever bothered in the wider population to consider that the rhythm method is a wise antidote to promiscupus abortion. Wonder why? It would sure put a dent in the profits of Planned Parenthood and their thousands of abortion clinics.

 

[berrywi]

I’m simply amazed that more people haven’t jumped on a common pro-life thread.

Let’s temporarily ignore church teaching for just a second …

…and in the age of such wonderful TV shows such as Forensic Files and the like, consider how some criminals are being caught, or innocents vindicated…through their DNA! The bad guys spill it all over the crime scene, and the good guys don’t have any of theirs there.

Now, where does that DNA come from?

Well, waaaaay back in Public High School Biology, I was given some information that it came from the mommy and the daddy. …

Wait … who was that second person? Well, let’s ignore him also for a second.

When does this happen? Well, some magical “DNA fairy” sprinkles the kid with this substance as they are born, right? At least that’s what some “pro choice” folks would want you to believe.

Well, I don’t. I was told in that very same class, that this DNA came from the moment the kid was conceived. So it is a living, unique organism. There’s nobody else like him or her, with the remote possibility of identical twins. It really isn’t much of an extension to realize that if you murder the kid inside mommy, it isn’t that much different than murdering the kid outside mommy.

Guess what? Last time I checked, the church has been telling us the same thing!

Bill Berry

 

[Doc_Keele]

Vatican Roulette? What’s the chances of getting the wider population to practice that successfully?

Undisciplined sex has produced a nation suffering from sexual diseases as it has never suffered before. What are the chances of getting the wider population to give up promiscuous sex? That doesn’t mean there isn’t a way to do it and we shouldn’t give it a try. Yes, I think you are right. It’s all about control … self control!!!

No one has ever bothered in the wider population to consider that the rhythm method is a wise antidote to promiscupus abortion. Wonder why? It would sure put a dent in the profits of Planned Parenthood and their thousands of abortion clinics.

Like your other suggestions, it hasn’t worked in the past so there’s no reason to believe it will work now. NFP would not work in the wider population, rather than the self-selected group that practices it currently.

 

[Charlemagne_II]

berrywi
*
Guess what? Last time I checked, the church has been telling us the same thing!*

Yes, the Catholic Church has always been a champion of common sense and self control.

We cannot help it if the rest of the world cannot get focused and disciplined.

 

[Charlemagne_II]

Doc Keele

Like your other suggestions, it hasn’t worked in the past so there’s no reason to believe it will work now.

Well, of course not with all the promiscuity and lack of common sense. The world was not always so crazy as it is now. Maybe (and it may be difficult for you to grasp) moral chaos and its unintended consequences will get so bad that the great mass of mankind will learn to sober up.

But not in my lifetime, I reckon.

 

[Doc_Keele]

Doc Keele

Like your other suggestions, it hasn’t worked in the past so there’s no reason to believe it will work now.

Well, of course not with all the promiscuity and lack of common sense. The world was not always so crazy as it is now. Maybe (and it may be difficult for you to grasp) moral chaos and its unintended consequences will get so bad that the great mass of mankind will learn to sober up.

But not in my lifetime, I reckon.

So if commonsense isn’t common, is it really commonsense?
On second thoughts, let’s not go down this avenue again…
What moral chaos and consequences? Is the world really worse than in previous ages?
As for finding things difficult to grasp, it’s better to be able to grasp reality than pipe dreams IMO.

 

[sedonaman]

With regard to the recent health care bill just passed, there is a problem and moral conflict related to abortions: Many women, and many men as well, strongly believe that no one and no government should have the power to dictate how a woman treats her own body. Yet we have just passed legislation which absolutely places government right in the middle of the doctor-patient relationship for every woman, man, and child in America. How can we leave the abortion decision in the hands of every woman while passing legislation which takes that same right away from every woman, man, and child for every aspect of health care, including abortions? Source: americanthinker.com/2010/03/obamacare_and_bleeding_heart_l.html?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter

 

[bpuharic]

Vatican Roulette? What’s the chances of getting the wider population to practice that successfully?

Undisciplined sex has produced a nation suffering from sexual diseases as it has never suffered before. What are the chances of getting the wider population to give up promiscuous sex? That doesn’t mean there isn’t a way to do it and we shouldn’t give it a try. Yes, I think you are right. It’s all about control … self control!!!

The US, because of religion, has one of the highest rates of teen pregnancy in the western world. We need to teach more birth control and allow easier access to it. Evidence, not emotion, is what’s needed.

No one has ever bothered in the wider population to consider that the rhythm method is a wise antidote to promiscupus abortion. Wonder why? It would sure put a dent in the profits of Planned Parenthood and their thousands of abortion clinics.

Yeah, good luck with that. NFP is a stupid idea promoted for the idiotic reason that some ‘God’ wants people to have sex for his arbitrary purposes…whatever they are.

 

[Charlemagne_II]

Doc Keele

Is the world really worse than in previous ages?

Some of them, I think so. We are not yet feeding Christians to the lions, though I do not doubt there are many who would like to.

 

[bpuharic]

With regard to the recent health care bill just passed, there is a problem and moral conflict related to abortions:. Yet we have just passed legislation which absolutely places government right in the middle of the doctor-patient relationship for every woman, man, and child in America.

That’s true. Unfortunately it bans the govt. from funding abortions. Right now insurance companies make that decision.

How can we leave the abortion decision in the hands of every woman while passing legislation which takes that same right away from every woman, man, and child for every aspect of health care, including abortions?

Meaningless generalization and scare tactics do not make an argument. We have the most expensive, least efficient healthcare system in the world right now. Thousands die for lack of access. Yet prolifers just don’t care. All they care about is women and sex.

 

[Charlemagne_II]

sedonaman

*How can we leave the abortion decision in the hands of every woman while passing legislation which takes that same right away from every woman, man, and child for every aspect of health care, including abortions? *

Ah, another voice of common sense!