The "Problem Of Evil" does not exist

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That’s quite right. And your statement hints at the reason, it’s culturally based, So your normative values are a factor of your geography. I would bet money, that if you were born and raised in Saudi Arabia, you would be a Sunni Muslim.
I’ve had my share of sociology and I still reject relativism. Utilitarianism suffers from the same problems of relativism since what makes people happy is necessarily universal.

All this begs the question, though, why are atheists/agnostics…moral anti-realists debating morals in a Catholic message board? I’m mean…it’s not like you have anything real to gain.
 
If the physical world is deterministic, then that’s that. We are destined to do what we do, and to think what we think, and no effort on our part will change that.

So, is the world deterministic? I don’t know. I tend to think it probably is, but then again, maybe it isn’t. And if indeed it is not, then I would need to know more before I could say what implications it has for us.
The world is not deterministic which is why Einstein hated quantum physics and believe God did not play dice with the universe…but why not after all they’re God’s dice.
 
I’ve had my share of sociology and I still reject relativism. Utilitarianism suffers from the same problems of relativism since what makes people happy is necessarily universal.

All this begs the question, though, why are atheists/agnostics…moral anti-realists debating morals in a Catholic message board? I’m mean…it’s not like you have anything real to gain.
atheists are just as fascinated by G-d as we are. i have hope for them all, i was there. now im here. people who dont care dont bother, it took anthony flew his entire life, he lost every bit of standing and people called him senile, but in the end, he accepted that there was a G-d, if not as we understand it. the rational mind can only fight it so long, the universe cannot explain its own existence, i think this brute fact is what eventually brings people around.
 
All this begs the question, though, why are atheists/agnostics…moral anti-realists debating morals in a Catholic message board? I’m mean…it’s not like you have anything real to gain.
Morals, the “Problem Of Evil” (including natural evil), these are timeless questions. I’m on an apologetics board to investigate theodicy
 
It’s like I said earlier: the problem of evil cannot exist unless evil is universal and factually real. If OTOH the nature of morality is Relativism then Evil doesn’t truly exist.
 
Morals, the “Problem Of Evil” (including natural evil), these are timeless questions. I’m on an apologetics board to investigate theodicy
why is there a need for researching theodicies? the OP shows that you cant ever prove that the actions of G-d are evil. its nothing more than opinion. so the entire problem collapses.
 
…what makes people happy is necessarily universal.
This is quite possibly the most ridiculous idea I’ve ever heard. The only reason Christians get away with saying it is because they use a different definition of “happiness” than everyone else. I’d say that you severely misunderstand what utilitarians mean by “happiness.” “Happiness” is intended to mean “the feeling produced by the satisfaction of preferences.” The fact that we have different preferences is evident. Stating that all humans prefer to be in union with God, and that we possess no other significant preferences, is completely arbitrary and not at all exemplified by our behavior.
 
when the first woman tells you that you are going to be a father and holds your hand to her belly, i bet that idea evaporates like frost on a sunny morning. this is one of those areas that experience will change your mind about. 🙂
That might very well be what happens. However, it doesn’t change the fact that I don’t feel abortion can be considered wrong on a critical level. I may not want my future wife to do it, but that doesn’t mean it’s immoral.

I know we have irreconcilable differences in perspective on this matter, so I don’t know if it would be of any use to take our discussion to another thread.
I would agree, to a certain extent given Christian ethic, if you mean a being that is non-sentient by “nature”, rather then a being that passes through a productive faze of non sentience.
I agree that this is a problem for the typical utilitarian stance on abortion. Indeed, if we say it is acceptable to kill a being while it is non-sentient, we could kill people during certain stages of rest (while their brain is preparing for sleep). While I admit this is a problem, I see many more contradictions in the pro-life stance. I mean, it stands to reason that no ethical system is perfect, we simply grasp for what we feel is the best system.

Perhaps we could start a thread on this, if you’re interested. It doesn’t fit with the rest of the thread.
Abortion is a selfish act.
Since everything we choose to do is done for the sake of satisfying a preference of ours, all of our conscious acts are selfish. A supposedly altruistic act, such as giving to charity, is done only because a person prefers to help others. Because the person derives pleasure from knowing they’ve helped, the action is at least partially selfish.

Given this, altruism can never be realized, no matter how philanthropic a person is.
The fact of the matter is this. I am the end result of a process that began when my mum became pregnant. If you value my life as a person “now” and you believe i have intrinsic value as a person “now”, then you cannot possibly agree with my abortion; because to abort the process that leads to me, is to abort that which we know or believe to be intrinsically valuable “Now”.
Its simple logic!:mad:
Indeed, you are quite right. But consider this: if it is immoral to prevent a potential sentient life from being actualized, would it not be immoral for a fertile woman to refuse to produce a child? Had they not refused, an actual being of value would have been produced. Thus, a fertile woman choosing to not have children must be immoral, since it prevents sentient beings from being produced.

Ironically, this would mean that the abstinence Christians praise so highly would be immoral by their own standards!
Some would say that a baby hasn’t got a sentient mind when they are first born. If this is true, then a mothers view of the baby being a person by your moral standards is irrational. Thus we should simply disregard the womens feelings and try to convince her that its not a person especially if we can use the baby for experiments that might save somebodies life.
That depends on what the woman means by “person.” Does she mean that the fetus is a walking, talking, intelligent, and sentient being with a personality that we’re used to communicating with on a daily basis? She would be delusional to think that way.
 
It’s like I said earlier: the problem of evil cannot exist unless evil is universal and factually real. If OTOH the nature of morality is Relativism then Evil doesn’t truly exist.
That would be an argument for moral evil, but fails to explain natural evil. By that I mean something like this;

ndpr.nd.edu/review.cfm?id=15425

Evidential Argument from Evil (EA)

(1) If God exists, there would be no gratuitous evils.

(2) There are gratuitous evils.

Therefore,

(3) God does not exist. (p. 16)

“The theist admits that the truth of (2) entails that God does not exist. So, belief in God is reasonable only if we have reason to believe that (2) is false. CD-explanations provide no such reason. Even if successful, they only show that the atheist isn’t entitled to claim that (2) is true. Murray has given us no reason to think that (2) is false, and absent such a reason, it is not reasonable to believe that God exists.”

This is why theists like warpspeedpetey vigorously deny that non-human animals have any emotions, even basic ones like fear or anger.

n.b. CD is a ‘Causa Dei’ explanation.

amazon.com/Nature-Red-Tooth-Claw-Suffering/dp/0199237271
 
It’s like I said earlier: the problem of evil cannot exist unless evil is universal and factually real. If OTOH the nature of morality is Relativism then Evil doesn’t truly exist.
Relativism fails as a standard for morality.
 
Thus, a fertile woman choosing to not have children must be immoral, since it prevents sentient beings from being produced.
.
And what about men? 😉

The moral standard is that life is sacred. Having a harem who are barefoot and pregnant does not apply.
 
This is quite possibly the most ridiculous idea I’ve ever heard. The only reason Christians get away with saying it is because they use a different definition of “happiness” than everyone else. I’d say that you severely misunderstand what utilitarians mean by “happiness.” “Happiness” is intended to mean “the feeling produced by the satisfaction of preferences.” The fact that we have different preferences is evident. Stating that all humans prefer to be in union with God, and that we possess no other significant preferences, is completely arbitrary and not at all exemplified by our behavior.
BS. what makes people happy isn’t universal. People have different feelings with regard to different actions. Cultural uilitarianism in practice: youtube.com/watch?v=q-9JpRytCx0
 
That would be an argument for moral evil, but fails to explain natural evil. By that I mean something like this;

ndpr.nd.edu/review.cfm?id=15425

Evidential Argument from Evil (EA)

(1) If God exists, there would be no gratuitous evils.

(2) There are gratuitous evils.

Therefore,

(3) God does not exist. (p. 16)

“The theist admits that the truth of (2) entails that God does not exist. So, belief in God is reasonable only if we have reason to believe that (2) is false. CD-explanations provide no such reason. Even if successful, they only show that the atheist isn’t entitled to claim that (2) is true. Murray has given us no reason to think that (2) is false, and absent such a reason, it is not reasonable to believe that God exists.”

This is why theists like warpspeedpetey vigorously deny that non-human animals have any emotions, even basic ones like fear or anger.

n.b. CD is a ‘Causa Dei’ explanation.

amazon.com/Nature-Red-Tooth-Claw-Suffering/dp/0199237271
Number (1) is false.
 
That would be an argument for moral evil, but fails to explain natural evil. By that I mean something like this;

ndpr.nd.edu/review.cfm?id=15425

Evidential Argument from Evil (EA)

(1) If God exists, there would be no gratuitous evils.

(2) There are gratuitous evils.

Therefore,

(3) God does not exist. (p. 16)

“The theist admits that the truth of (2) entails that God does not exist. So, belief in God is reasonable only if we have reason to believe that (2) is false. CD-explanations provide no such reason. Even if successful, they only show that the atheist isn’t entitled to claim that (2) is true. Murray has given us no reason to think that (2) is false, and absent such a reason, it is not reasonable to believe that God exists.”

This is why theists like warpspeedpetey vigorously deny that non-human animals have any emotions, even basic ones like fear or anger.

n.b. CD is a ‘Causa Dei’ explanation.

amazon.com/Nature-Red-Tooth-Claw-Suffering/dp/0199237271
since there’s no human actions involved I just don’t care at all about arguments on natural evil and why I didn’t respond the first time you presented it to me. however…aquinasonline.com/Topics/probevil.html
 
Okay, so let’s compare moral laws to scientific laws. The law of gravity offers an explanation of observations that allows us to consistently predict the outcome of physical events (which is why it’s a law). What does the law “Humans should not kill other humans” allow us to predict?
Well, criticizing my system of ethics doesn’t solve the problems with your own, but I’m happy to answer anyway.

First, your requirement that laws must “predict the outcome of physical events” is clearly incorrect, particularly when it comes to characterizing human actions, conduct, and behavior. Some laws simply describe reality and do not necessarily predict “physical events” at all.

What exactly does the law of non-contradiction or the law of excluded middle predict with respect to “physical events”? I suppose you could say that it can predict tomorrow that my car can’t exist and not exist at the same time and in the same sense. What about in terms of human action? Not much. In fact, human beings can and regularly do engage in logical fallacies that purport to break these laws. Sometimes laws can only describe reality without the power to predict.

Second, moral laws do in fact describe something about reality and in some instances have predictive force. Moral laws (under my system, and very possibly yours) describe those actions that human beings may take to maximize happiness. Furthermore, although these laws cannot necessarily predict how human beings will act, they do predict that man will be maximally happy if he follows them.
From what I can tell, it would be impossible for any should-statements to describe reality, since “should” has a nebulous meaning when only objects are considered. Can I observe an instance of duty or obligation in the same way that I can observe the addition and subtraction of objects?
Sure. You can observe human beings acting, and, therefore, observe an instance of a duty. I’m glad you brought up subtraction. Instances of subtraction in the world are actions. I can have 50 squashes and physically remove 49 squashes, leaving one squash. What you just observed was an instance of subtraction – an action. You didn’t actually see “subtraction” itself, because subtraction is a concept.
If “45” represents the addition of 45 objects, then “-45” represents the subtraction of 45 objects.
My point still stands then. There is no “object” that -45 describes.
I’m not an emotivist because of how I feel, I just don’t see how the word “should” can be meaningfully applied to reality. What does it describe? How can we observe what it describes?
It describes those actions that human beings can take to achieve the greatest good. That is why those who subscribe to utilitarianism seem to use it a great deal. You sought to have emotivism describe the content of moral statements. You have utterly failed to show how they describe conditional propositions that contain moral sentences.
He seems to spend a good deal of time at the beginning of Utilitarianism to point out that ethical statements can’t be supported by evidence or proven.
I don’t recall that. Please provide some quotes from Mill. Unlike you, Mill refers to moral “laws” and “obligations” quite frequently. I believe it is you who are projecting something of your own philosophy on Mill’s work.
That depends on what you mean by “infanticide.” Since a being has no moral significance in utilitarianism if it is not sentient (unless the being is cared for by others), I think that aborting within the first three months or so seems acceptable. I don’t approve of killing infants after they’re born just because the mother doesn’t want them, though. They’re obviously sentient and desire, albeit on a primitive level, not to be killed at that point.
Then you disagree with Singer. He thinks that isn’t wrong to kill severely disabled infants:

So the issue of ending life for disabled newborn infants is not without complications, which we do not have the space to discuss adequately. Nevertheless the main point is clear: killing a disabled infant is not morally equivalent to killing a person. Very often it is not wrong at all.

utilitarian.net/singer/by/1993----.htm

What is it that makes your opinion any better than your mentor, Singer?
 
First, your requirement that laws must “predict the outcome of physical events” is clearly incorrect, particularly when it comes to characterizing human actions, conduct, and behavior. Some laws simply describe reality and do not necessarily predict “physical events” at all.
You were the one who said that moral laws existed in the same realm as scientific (physical) laws. This means that they must contain, as scientific laws must contain, explanative, predictive power. “Humans should not kill humans” doesn’t allow us to predict squat when given alone. “Humans feel that killing each other is wrong,” on the other hand, allows us to predict quite a lot; namely, that most humans will refrain from killing each other when possible.
What exactly does the law of non-contradiction or the law of excluded middle predict with respect to “physical events”? I suppose you could say that it can predict tomorrow that my car can’t exist and not exist at the same time and in the same sense. What about in terms of human action? Not much. In fact, human beings can and regularly do engage in logical fallacies that purport to break these laws.
How exactly do humans violate laws, such as the law of non-contradiction? Can they drive a car and not drive a car at the same time? We might think illogically, but we can’t act illogically, so to speak.
Second, moral laws do in fact describe something about reality and in some instances have predictive force. Moral laws (under my system, and very possibly yours) describe those actions that human beings may take to maximize happiness.
What does “Humans should not kill humans” tell us about killing? All we can infer is that whoever utters this phrase apparently detests killing humans. We might even be able to assume that the act is considered detestable by most of mankind, but this only tells us about the feelings produced by killing humans and not what “killing humans” actually is.
Furthermore, although these laws cannot necessarily predict how human beings will act, they do predict that man will be maximally happy if he follows them.
This depends on what laws we choose to advocate. I don’t care how people go about attaining happiness, so long as they can avoid causing suffering. Not every ethical system demands that you seek happiness “its way or the highway.” 😉
Sure. You can observe human beings acting, and, therefore, observe an instance of a duty. I’m glad you brought up subtraction. Instances of subtraction in the world are actions. I can have 50 squashes and physically remove 49 squashes, leaving one squash. What you just observed was an instance of subtraction – an action. You didn’t actually see “subtraction” itself, because subtraction is a concept.
My point still stands then. There is no “object” that -45 describes.
At this point, I’m beginning to wonder what this all has to do with the subject.
You sought to have emotivism describe the content of moral statements. You have utterly failed to show how they describe conditional propositions that contain moral sentences.
You can disagree with my explanation, but you’re simply lying if you say I haven’t explained it. I even rephrased one of your propositions to show its meaning as intended by the person who uttered it. Disagreeing with an explanation doesn’t make it non-existent.
I don’t recall that. Please provide some quotes from Mill. Unlike you, Mill refers to moral “laws” and “obligations” quite frequently. I believe it is you who are projecting something of your own philosophy on Mill’s work.
I’ll find more later, but this should be sufficient for now. From page 29 of Utilitarianism:

“The ultimate sanction, therefore, of all morality (external motives apart) being a subjective feeling in our own minds, I see nothing embarrassing to those whose standard is utility in the question, ‘What is the sanction of that particular standard?’ We may answer, ‘The same as of all other moral standards–the conscientious feelings of mankind.’”

That statement alone seems pretty definitive to me.
Then you disagree with Singer. He thinks that isn’t wrong to kill severely disabled infants:
What is it that makes your opinion any better than your mentor, Singer?
Singer is not my “mentor.” Your cheeky comment aside, I believe he argued that severely disabled infants who were not sentient and would never be sentient were not of moral worth (besides the value that family and friends invested in them). This is quite consistent with my own statements.

When you say that Singer supports infanticide, be sure to explain why. He doesn’t just say, “It’s an infant, so it’s acceptable to kill it.” I’ve never heard him approve of killing sentient infants, unless, of course, they are in a state of extreme suffering or will be later in their lives due to birth defects.
 
Greetings Oreoracle,

I want to address the idea that humans are just animals. Humans are distinct from animals,not because we walk upright,have thumbs, or developed language but because we have a conscience. Animals are driven by instinct to preserve their species.They are brutal in all their negotiations. You could argue that mankind is guilty of commiting many atrocities. Humans are also capable of remorse and guilt. We are guided by a higher awareness that leads us to show kindness and strive for justice.Since the dawn of time humans have engagd in some form of worship because we desire to engage in commerce with the devine. This is a quality that is notably lacking in animals. Religion is as old as the human race and has been its passionate persuit.Was it Stalin that said " Religion is the opiate of the people?" A conscience and the act of worship indicate that there is a quality in humans that identify us with the sacred. This quality is expressed vividly in our ability to create, in art, literature, music. and philosphy. There exists within us both the sacred and the profane. That more than anything distinguishes us from the animals.
Johnonevi
 
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