The problem of evil

[sadiebelle]

First of all, I want to preface this by saying that I am a cradle Catholic. I have really been struggling with my faith for the last couple years. I came to this forum once before and got a bit involved in a discussion that was helpful to me, but I’m still looking for some answers. Please be gentle and know that this is coming from a place of honest searching for deeper meaning in my religious life. Thank you in advance.

I have searched the forum, but didn’t find another thread on the problem of evil. If I missed it, please point me in the right direction.

So my basic question is why is their evil. I would ask a bit more, though. I have gotten the free will answer, but I guess it doesn’t satisfy me. Neither does the “we don’t know what good consequences come from bad actions” line of reasoning.

I’m not sure exactly where I’m going with this, but the classic “if God is all good, all knowing and all powerful, then why is there evil?” is a good place to start.

 

[JM3]

vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/_INDEX.HTM

vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P1C.HTM

407 The doctrine of original sin, closely connected with that of redemption by Christ, provides lucid discernment of man’s situation and activity in the world. By our first parents’ sin, the devil has acquired a certain domination over man, even though man remains free. Original sin entails “captivity under the power of him who thenceforth had the power of death, that is, the devil”.298 Ignorance of the fact that man has a wounded nature inclined to evil gives rise to serious errors in the areas of education, politics, social action299 and morals.

 

[david_friol_1]

First of all, I want to preface this by saying that I am a cradle Catholic. I have really been struggling with my faith for the last couple years. I came to this forum once before and got a bit involved in a discussion that was helpful to me, but I’m still looking for some answers. Please be gentle and know that this is coming from a place of honest searching for deeper meaning in my religious life. Thank you in advance.

Hey sadiebelle

Tighten that grip you have on your Catholic faith because the Lord is merely testing you, forging you to make you stronger so that your faith may mature, then he can use you to help others in this cruel world of ours.
The problem of evil is one of the most difficult stumbling blocks for many people. There is something “awesome” about evil that goes largely unnoticed in our minds and in our daily experience. We see evil and we think “Why God?”. We experience pain and we say “Are you there God?”. We cry out to God and he is slow to answer, if he answers at all…in the way we want him to. Is it some kind of game for God? I don’t think so! The thing that is so “awesome” about evil is that it really is the very tool in God’s hand that he uses to “turn the soil” in our lives, like a gardener would in his garden. The problem is not really the evil, the problem is our response to it when we see it or experience it. “Why God?” and “Are you there God?” are the normal responses for people who probably do not realize that they are full of pride. Questioning God as if he owes them some answer for what he allows to happen in this world. If God does not loosen the soil in your life how can the seed of faith, which he placed in you at Baptism, receive the water of his rich grace and grow into the mature plant.
I want to give you three pieces of advice to try and help you on your way to grow closer to God:
1-Stop doubting God, it is a sin against faith(CCC 2088), and start trusting and I mean really placing your trust in God…above all things!
2-Worship him! It is your very purpose in life! Pray always for his glory and the salvation of souls! “Ignorance of Scripture is ignorance of Christ!”- Start reading it and praying to the Holy Spirit to enlighten your mind through the Scriptures!!!
3-Turn away from sin, Turn away from sin, Turn away from sin… Become faithful! Receice Christ in the Eucharist to offer God praise and thankgiving as often as you can…for his Glory!
God bless you and your family!
David

 

[EricFilmer]

So my basic question is why is their evil. I would ask a bit more, though. I have gotten the free will answer, but I guess it doesn’t satisfy me. Neither does the “we don’t know what good consequences come from bad actions” line of reasoning.

I’m not sure exactly where I’m going with this, but the classic “if God is all good, all knowing and all powerful, then why is there evil?” is a good place to start.

Hey Sadie. Even though your past discussions on the topic of freewill were not satisfying, I think that the question at hand still needs to be examined through that lens.

God has created a perfect world (without sin, suffering or evil), which is heaven. At the end of time, God will perfect this world. In the meantime, God permits humans to exercise freewill. God permits people to make evil choices out of respect for freewill. But he can also render a greater good from every evil that is committed.

You stated that you are not satisfied with the notion of good consequences coming from bad actions. But consider what the lesson of the Cross teaches us. The worst crime imaginable is deicide, the killing of God. Jesus is God, and has a divine nature and a human one. In his divine nature he cannot die, but he could experience pain and death in his human nature. Therefore, when Jesus was executed the crime of deicide was committed. But from the greatest crime imaginable, God renders the power to overcome all the sins that will ever be committed by the human race. So from the worst of all things (deicide), God renders the greatest of all things (our salvation). In light of all this, we can trust him to do the same with all evil, not just the evil of deicide.

God intends that this universe be a moral universe. It is a place where he guides, nourishes and empowers people to be champions of virtue. It is through grappling with the temptation to sin, and choosing not to, that a person grows in virtue. No one can be a great saint unless there is the possibility of being a great sinner instead. And whereas there are those who use their freewill to make righteous choices and become champions of virtue, there are those who use their freewill to make evil choices. If God prevents them from sinning then human freedom does not truly exist. And God cannot love people and at the same time rob them of their freedom. After all, forcing people to do ones will is a violation of the whole concept of love.

 

[sadiebelle]

JM3,

Yowza. Ok. I’ve read this in the cathechism before. First of all, I am no scholar and I’m afraid that a lot of what you linked to is a bit over my head. I’m kind of looking for a discussion on a conversational level.

Secondly, the stuff that I can understand doesn’t really answer my question. Because it just seems to me to say that no one can escape evil. I understand that, but couldn’t God have created a world where evil didn’t exist? I mean, we could still have free will without evil, right?

The catechism seems to me to make it sound like evil exists outside of God’s creation. Like, it just was without being created. But I didn’t think that anything was outside of God’s creation. And if that is the case, then why would He create evil or the ability of beings to do evil?

Maybe my question should have been can free will exist without evil?

I’m going to read through that stuff again and get back to the discussion. Thanks for the (name removed by moderator)ut.

 

[sadiebelle]

Thank you, David. Rest assured that I am trying with all of my heart and mind to do just those things.

 

[ConstantineTG]

First of all, I want to preface this by saying that I am a cradle Catholic. I have really been struggling with my faith for the last couple years. I came to this forum once before and got a bit involved in a discussion that was helpful to me, but I’m still looking for some answers. Please be gentle and know that this is coming from a place of honest searching for deeper meaning in my religious life. Thank you in advance.

I have searched the forum, but didn’t find another thread on the problem of evil. If I missed it, please point me in the right direction.

So my basic question is why is their evil. I would ask a bit more, though. I have gotten the free will answer, but I guess it doesn’t satisfy me. Neither does the “we don’t know what good consequences come from bad actions” line of reasoning.

I’m not sure exactly where I’m going with this, but the classic “if God is all good, all knowing and all powerful, then why is there evil?” is a good place to start.

Because true love needs true choice, and to be able to love, we must also be able to do the opposite. We cannot have the choice of loving God truly if we cannot choose otherwise.

 

[sadiebelle]

Because true love needs true choice, and to be able to love, we must also be able to do the opposite. We cannot have the choice of loving God truly if we cannot choose otherwise.

Ok, so I get this at first thought, but then I think about real horrific stuff that happens. Like, say a 3 year old being molested by her father. That has to exist so that we can love God? We have to be free to molest our children so that we can love God? That just seems so cruel. So unfair. Why would God design a universe in which child rape exists?

You said " We cannot have the choice of loving God truly if we cannot choose otherwise." Can’t we have the choice to not love God and also not have anyone born with the desire or ability to rape their own child?

We can have a free choice to love God without the ablity to commit atrocites, right? It just seems like such an awful thing for God to do. To create a world and a being that would ever do such horrible things.

Doesn’t it seem like the universe not existing is better than even one child being raped, let alone all of the torture and horrors that happen every day in this world? I know that if I could save one child from being tortured, I would give up my life in the blink of an eye. That seems like the right thing to do. Why wouldn’t God do the same thing?

Why wouldn’t God say, “you know, I want to create these creatures, but since I can’t do that without child rape being an option, I’m just going to have to go without”?

And, if that’s not enough, why couldn’t He have created us without child rape (I keep using this example because it’s one of the worst things I can imagine) being an option? Isn’t he all powerful? Who or what stops him?

I know I’m kind of rambling here, but I just so desperately want to hold on to my faith. I’m trying my best.

 

[grannymh]

So my basic question is why is their evil. I would ask a bit more, though. I have gotten the free will answer, but I guess it doesn’t satisfy me. Neither does the “we don’t know what good consequences come from bad actions” line of reasoning.

I’m not sure exactly where I’m going with this, but the classic “if God is all good, all knowing and all powerful, then why is there evil?” is a good place to start.

Some “classic” questions are not necessary for us to live in love with God.
The question why is there hunger needs to be replaced with why should I bring canned goods to a food drive. Is climbing the tree of good and evil all that important? For us, in our present state, it is the tree on which Jesus hung bleeding that leads us to salvific love.

Jesus is truly present in the Catholic Eucharist. Sometimes, we need to tolerate our own ignorance in order to truly follow Him into eternal life.

Blessings,
granny

---

THE HOLY EUCHARIST
****IS THE LIGHT, STRENGTH, AND LIFE OF OUR SOULS.

 

[danserr]

I know that if I could save one child from being tortured, I would give up my life in the blink of an eye. That seems like the right thing to do. Why wouldn’t God do the same thing?

He did. More still, he gave up his life for every single sufferer who had ever lived or would ever live. Possibility you have read the story of the Incarnation, the Crucifixion, and the the Resurrection? It is not only a question of why is there evil? It is also a question of what does God do about it?

People who ask this question often have the misconception that God sits on his hands, just letting bad stuff happen and doing nothing and planning to do nothing about it. But this is really mistaken. God doesn’t sit on his hands and do nothing. Rather, he became man (the Incarnation) and shared in human suffering. He suffered hunger in the desert, rejection from his hometown, misunderstanding from his family, the attacks of demons, betrayal by one of his closest friends, the evil of a corrupt government, the evil of a corrupt religious hierarchy, and finally, the cruelest death that society could devise. In the end he cried out “my God, my God, why have you abandoned me,”- a moment when God himself looked on the suffering in the world and seemed an atheist.

And after he suffered, he rose from the dead, (The Resurrection). In some way or another (how is another discussion), his death and Resurrection opened heaven. Before, he ascended, he said “I am going to prepare a place for you,” while St. Paul speaks of Christ as the first fruits.

The English cardinal Newman once said that if he did not believe all the suffering of the world would be made right by God in the afterlife, “why, I should go mad.” But the Resurrection does give us reason to think that a next world does exist to make right the sufferings of this one.

You ask essentially ask “wouldn’t it be better to not exist than to suffer?” The problem is that you are reckoning without heaven. The sufferings of this world seem terrible now and they are, but once heaven is obtained, the sufferings will appear to be nothing compared to the joys of heaven. And God himself suffered and died to open heaven for us.

Would it be better to never exist, than to suffer and have heaven at the end of it all? I have a hard time thinking so. Many saints have decided that any earthly suffering was worth it to obtain heaven. St. Paul (who suffered rather alot himself) said “I reckon the sufferings of the present life and not to be compared to the glory that awaits us.”

I haven’t said a lot on the free will thing, though if you want I can; but I do have a hard time imagining how free will could exist without at least the possibility for evil. If people are to be free to do good, they have to be free to “not” do good. If they are free to choose God, they must be free to reject Him. And if they do reject Him, the results are terrible. But for this reason God suffered, died, and opened the doors of heaven, so that the evil in this world would not be the final answer.

Rather immodestly, I have a few scattered reflections posted on suffering and God’s action if you like.
thesparkandtheflame.blogspot.com/2011/03/god-suffering-and-earthquake.html

More usefully though, you might look at some accessible books on the question.
C.S. Lewis The Problem of Pain
NT Wright, Evil and the Justice of God
I have not read, but have heard recommended, Peter Kreeft, Making Sense out of Suffering

 

[EricFilmer]

Can’t we have the choice to not love God and also not have anyone born with the desire or ability to rape their own child?

I embrace your noble desire for children to be protected. But many people are passionate about getting rid of other crimes and sins as well. The question is, if God were to make it impossible to do evil things, where would the list stop? You mentioned child abuse, but there is also elderly abuse and animal abuse. And what about making it impossible to harm those who are physically handicapped? And what about protecting those who suffer from mental, emotional, and/or behavioral disorders. Consider the fact that a grown person with Downs Syndrome is just as innocent and vulnerable as a child.

You specifically mentioned that God could create people without the ability or desire to rape their own children. But someone else could chime in and say, “No, God should create people without the ability or desire to rape anyone, not just children.” And yet another person could chime in and say, “Why are we limiting this consideration to rape? How about people not being able to kill or maim?” And still someone else could speak up, “What about emotional damage? People should be created not able to inflict emotional abuse.”

Once again, where would the list stop? I submit that humans would continue to add atrocities to this list until we basically tell God that we want him to prevent all evil. And in order to do that, he has to remove our capacity to chose evil, which means robbing us of our freedom. We are told that God created us to love him and to love one another. If the lover robs the beloved of freedom, then it is not true love.

Consider a fairytale in which a man falls in love with a woman, but to prevent her from rejecting him he gives her a love potion. The ensuing spell forces the woman to fall in love with him. Does the man experience love with this woman? Yes, in the sense that the emotion of love is present. But does the man experience what we would consider true love? No, because he robbed her of her ability to choose someone else over him. And the man would live out the rest of his life never knowing whether or not his wife truly loved him, or whether or not she would have chosen him had she been given the choice. When we choose to resist sin and live righteously, we chose to walk with God. When we choose to cave into temptation and commit sin, we turn our backs on God. If God were to use his power to prevent us from choosing sin, he would be like the man in the fairytale giving a woman a love potion. No true love would be possible.

 

[david_friol_1]

Thank you, David. Rest assured that I am trying with all of my heart and mind to do just those things.

Hey sadiebelle
One more piece of advice which for us Catholics needs to be right up front in our hearts and in our minds.
Our Blessed Mother! Pray earnestly to her to safeguard your faith and to bring you closer to her son! Pray the rosary daily, not merely to get something out of it for yourself. That can cause you more struggle when your prayer may not be swiftly answered. Instead simply offer up your time in prayer, trying your best to meditate on the mysteries, for the two-fold purpose of pleasing God the Father by honoring the Mother of his beloved Son and for the purpose of saving souls who neglect to love and obey God or for those who reject God through their sins.
God bless you and your family!
David

 

[edowitz1]

Roman Catholic Doctrine Vs. The Doctrinal Teaching of the Word of God

Eternal life is a merited reward [1821, 2010]. - Roman Catholicism
Eternal life is the free gift of God (Romans 6:23)

No one can know if he will attain eternal life [1036, 2005] - Roman Catholicism
The believer can know that he has eternal life by the Word of God (1 John 5:13)

The Roman Catholic Church is necessary for salvation [846]. - Roman Catholicism
There is salvation in no one but the Lord Jesus Christ, “for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among men, by which we must be saved” (Acts 4:12)

Purgatory is necessary to atone for sin and clean the soul [1030-1031]. - Roman Catholicism
Purgatory does not exist. Jesus made purification for sins on the cross (Hebrews 1:3)

Mary was preserved from all stain of original sin from the first instant of her conception (the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception) [490-492].
Mary, a descendant of Adam, was born in sin (Psalm 51:5; Romans 5:12)

Mary is the Mother of the Church [963, 975]. - Roman Catholicism
Mary was the earthly mother of Jesus ( John 2:1)

The Magisterium is the authoritative teacher of the Church. [85-87]. - Roman Catholicism
The Holy Spirit is the authoritative teacher of the church (John 14:26; John 16:13, I John 2:27)

The pope, as the Bishop of Rome, is the successor of Peter [882, 936] - Roman Catholicism
Peter had no successor, nor was he a pope.

The pope is infallible in his authoritative teaching [891]. - Roman Catholicism
God alone is infallible (Numbers 23:19)

Scripture and Tradition together are the Word of God [81, 85, 97, 182]. - Roman Catholicism
Scripture is the Word of God (John 10:35, 2 Timothy 3:15-17, 2 Peter 1:20-21). Tradition is the words of men (Mark 7:1-13).

The sacrificial work of redemption is continually carried out through the Sacrifice of the Mass. [1364,1405, 1846]. - Roman Catholicism
The sacrificial work of redemption was finished when Christ gave His life for us on the cross (Ephesians 1:7, Hebrews 1:3).

God desires that consecrated bread and wine be worshiped as divine. [1378-1381] - Roman Catholicism
God forbids the worship of any object, even t hose intended to represent Him (Exodus 20:4-5, Isaiah 42:8)

Justification is lost through mortal sin [1033, 1855, 1874] - Roman Catholicism
Justification cannot be lost. Those whom God justifies will be saved from the wrath of God (Romans 5:8-9).

Justification is furthered by sacraments and good works [1212, 1392, 2010] - Roman Catholicism
Justification is the imputation of the perfect righteousness of God (2 Corinthians 5:21). In Christ the believer has been made complete (Colossians 2:10).

Salvation is attained by cooperating with grace through faith, good works, and participation in the sacraments [183, 1129, 1815, 2002]. - Roman Catholicism
Salvation is attained by grace through faith apart from works (Ephesians 2:8-9). Good works are the result, not the cause, of salvation (Ephesians 2:10).

Mary, “the All-Holy,” lived a perfectly sinless life [411, 493]. - Roman Catholicism
Mary was a sinner; God alone is sinless (Luke 18:19, Romans 3:23, Revelation 15:4).

Mary was a virgin before, during, and after the birth of Christ [496-511]. - Roman Catholicism
Mary remained a virgin until after the birth of Jesus (Matthew 1:25). Later she had other children (Matthew 13:55-56, Psalm 69:8).

Each Sacrifice of the Mass appeases God’s wrath against sin [1371, 1414]. - Roman Catholicism
The once-for-all sacrifice of the cross fully appeased God’s wrath against sin. (Hebrews 10:12-18).

The Bishops, with the Pope, as their head, rule the universal church. [883, 894-896]. - Roman Catholicism
Christ, the head of the body is the Head of the Church. (Colossians 1:18).

The faithful receive the benefits of the cross in fullest measure through the Sacrifice of the Mass [1366, 1407]. - Roman Catholicism
Believers receive the benefits of the cross in fullest measure in Christ through faith (Ephesians 1:3-14).

God has exalted Mary in heavenly glory as Queen of Heaven and Earth [966]. She is to be praised with special devotion [971, 2675]. - Roman Catholicism
The name of the Lord is to be praised, for He alone is exalted above heaven and earth (Psalm 148:13). God commands, “You shall have no other gods before Me.” (Exodus 20:3).

Mary is the co-mediator to whom we can entrust all our cares and petitions 9 968-970, 2677] - Roman Catholicism
Christ Jesus is the one mediator to whom we can entrust all our cares and petitions (1 Timothy 2:5, John 14:13-14, 1 Peter 5:7).

Mary is the co-redeemer, for she participate with Christ in the painful act of redemption [618, 964, 968, 970]. - Roman Catholicism
Christ alone is the Redeemer, for He alone suffered and died for sin (1 Peter 1:18-19).

The sacrifice of the cross is perpetuated in the Sacrifice of the Mass [1323, 1382] - Roman Catholicism
The Sacrifice of the cross is finished (John 19:30).

Indulgences dispensed by the Church for acts of piety release sinners from temporal punishment [1471-1473]. - Roman Catholicism
Jesus releases believers from their sins by His blood. (Revelation 1:5).

The Magisterium has the right to define truth found only obscurely or implicitly in revelation. [66, 88, 2035, 2051]. - Roman Catholicism
No one has the right to go beyond what is written in Scripture (1 Corinthians 4:6, Proverbs 30:5-6).

Scripture and Tradition together are the Church’s supreme role of faith [80, 82]. - Roman Catholicism
Scripture is the church’s rule of faith (Mark 7:7-13, 2 Timothy 3:16-17).

 

[warpspeedpetey]

…“if God is all good, all knowing and all powerful, then why is there evil?” is a good place to start.

You mentioned that you didn’t find certain answers “satisfactory”. What criteria do you have for a “satisfactory” answer?

 

[sadiebelle]

You mentioned that you didn’t find certain answers “satisfactory”. What criteria do you have for a “satisfactory” answer?

Oh, I don’t know that I have any actual criteria. I just haven’t found them logical, I guess.

 

[sadiebelle]

Some “classic” questions are not necessary for us to live in love with God.
The question why is there hunger needs to be replaced with why should I bring canned goods to a food drive. Is climbing the tree of good and evil all that important? For us, in our present state, it is the tree on which Jesus hung bleeding that leads us to salvific love.

Jesus is truly present in the Catholic Eucharist. Sometimes, we need to tolerate our own ignorance in order to truly follow Him into eternal life.

Blessings,
granny

---

THE HOLY EUCHARIST
****IS THE LIGHT, STRENGTH, AND LIFE OF OUR SOULS.

This is very hard for me to swallow. I think that all questions are worth asking and answering. I can tolerate my ignorance about things, certainly, but I don’t think that I should embrace ignorance, you know? I certainly don’t think that I must embrace my ignorance to follow Him to eternal life.

 

[sadiebelle]

He did. More still, he gave up his life for every single sufferer who had ever lived or would ever live. Possibility you have read the story of the Incarnation, the Crucifixion, and the the Resurrection? It is not only a question of why is there evil? It is also a question of what does God do about it?

People who ask this question often have the misconception that God sits on his hands, just letting bad stuff happen and doing nothing and planning to do nothing about it. But this is really mistaken. God doesn’t sit on his hands and do nothing. Rather, he became man (the Incarnation) and shared in human suffering. He suffered hunger in the desert, rejection from his hometown, misunderstanding from his family, the attacks of demons, betrayal by one of his closest friends, the evil of a corrupt government, the evil of a corrupt religious hierarchy, and finally, the cruelest death that society could devise. In the end he cried out “my God, my God, why have you abandoned me,”- a moment when God himself looked on the suffering in the world and seemed an atheist.

And after he suffered, he rose from the dead, (The Resurrection). In some way or another (how is another discussion), his death and Resurrection opened heaven. Before, he ascended, he said “I am going to prepare a place for you,” while St. Paul speaks of Christ as the first fruits.

The English cardinal Newman once said that if he did not believe all the suffering of the world would be made right by God in the afterlife, “why, I should go mad.” But the Resurrection does give us reason to think that a next world does exist to make right the sufferings of this one.

You ask essentially ask “wouldn’t it be better to not exist than to suffer?” The problem is that you are reckoning without heaven. The sufferings of this world seem terrible now and they are, but once heaven is obtained, the sufferings will appear to be nothing compared to the joys of heaven. And God himself suffered and died to open heaven for us.

Would it be better to never exist, than to suffer and have heaven at the end of it all? I have a hard time thinking so. Many saints have decided that any earthly suffering was worth it to obtain heaven. St. Paul (who suffered rather alot himself) said “I reckon the sufferings of the present life and not to be compared to the glory that awaits us.”

I haven’t said a lot on the free will thing, though if you want I can; but I do have a hard time imagining how free will could exist without at least the possibility for evil. If people are to be free to do good, they have to be free to “not” do good. If they are free to choose God, they must be free to reject Him. And if they do reject Him, the results are terrible. But for this reason God suffered, died, and opened the doors of heaven, so that the evil in this world would not be the final answer.

Rather immodestly, I have a few scattered reflections posted on suffering and God’s action if you like.
thesparkandtheflame.blogspot.com/2011/03/god-suffering-and-earthquake.html

More usefully though, you might look at some accessible books on the question.
C.S. Lewis The Problem of Pain
NT Wright, Evil and the Justice of God
I have not read, but have heard recommended, Peter Kreeft, Making Sense out of Suffering

Thank you for your answer to this question.

I have to disagree with you when you say that He did die for our suffering. His dying didn’t take it away. That is what I was saying. I would die, so that someone else wouldn’t be tortured. Dying so that they would be tortured, but then rewarding them later still seems very cruel to me. Not something that a merciful and loving being would do. A merciful and loving being would not allow it to happen in the first place if they could stop it.

I think that I stated my question clearer later in that post when I asked why wouldn’t God just decide not to create us if He couldn’t do it without allowing things like child rape? It doesn’t seem right that I get to go through my life relatively happy and then (hopefully) get to enjoy heaven when someone else goes through life being tortured. I would rather not exist, not get a chance at heaven, than to allow even one child to endure that kind of life. I don’t see how anyone could argue anything different.

This is where I keep getting stuck. Why did He create a world like this when He knew what would happen? He knew, when he created us that atrocities would occur. That lives would be ruined. And he didn’t stop it. He didn’t say, “It’s not worth it to create these beings to love me, if it means horrible things will happen to so many of them. I’ll just exist without them, because I don’t want even one of my children to be tortured at the hands for their fellow men.” Or even, “I don’t need them to love me if it means that I have to allow them the option to rape their own children.” Isn’t it enough that he loves us?

I don’t know. I see this from a mother’s eyes, I guess.

 

[sadiebelle]

I embrace your noble desire for children to be protected. But many people are passionate about getting rid of other crimes and sins as well. The question is, if God were to make it impossible to do evil things, where would the list stop? You mentioned child abuse, but there is also elderly abuse and animal abuse. And what about making it impossible to harm those who are physically handicapped? And what about protecting those who suffer from mental, emotional, and/or behavioral disorders. Consider the fact that a grown person with Downs Syndrome is just as innocent and vulnerable as a child.

You specifically mentioned that God could create people without the ability or desire to rape their own children. But someone else could chime in and say, “No, God should create people without the ability or desire to rape anyone, not just children.” And yet another person could chime in and say, “Why are we limiting this consideration to rape? How about people not being able to kill or maim?” And still someone else could speak up, “What about emotional damage? People should be created not able to inflict emotional abuse.”

Once again, where would the list stop? I submit that humans would continue to add atrocities to this list until we basically tell God that we want him to prevent all evil. And in order to do that, he has to remove our capacity to chose evil, which means robbing us of our freedom. We are told that God created us to love him and to love one another. If the lover robs the beloved of freedom, then it is not true love.

Consider a fairytale in which a man falls in love with a woman, but to prevent her from rejecting him he gives her a love potion. The ensuing spell forces the woman to fall in love with him. Does the man experience love with this woman? Yes, in the sense that the emotion of love is present. But does the man experience what we would consider true love? No, because he robbed her of her ability to choose someone else over him. And the man would live out the rest of his life never knowing whether or not his wife truly loved him, or whether or not she would have chosen him had she been given the choice. When we choose to resist sin and live righteously, we chose to walk with God. When we choose to cave into temptation and commit sin, we turn our backs on God. If God were to use his power to prevent us from choosing sin, he would be like the man in the fairytale giving a woman a love potion. No true love would be possible.

Ok, I understand this line of reasoning. I think that we would get to the point where we would want God to take away all evil. It would take away our free will. I understand and agree. I just don’t understand why anyone would say that they would rather have free will and know that having free will means that many, many human beings will be tortured beyond my ability to contemplate.

I would rather not have free will and know that no child would be raped. No one would die in a death camp. No child would starve to death in it’s mother’s arms. Wouldn’t you? Isn’t the loss of freedom worth that?

I understand the analogy of the love potion, too. I get that true love would not be possible without free will, but why can’t God be ok with that? Why does he demand true love if it necessarily means that so many of his beloved creatures will live lives of pure horror? That seems so cruel to me. That kind of logic is the opposite of compassionate, merciful, and loving in my mind.

 

[Keeler]

Once again, where would the list stop? I submit that humans would continue to add atrocities to this list until we basically tell God that we want him to prevent all evil.

Yes, that is the logical conclusion.

And in order to do that, he has to remove our capacity to chose evil, which means robbing us of our freedom.

God, allegedly, is unable to chose evil, and yet he is supposed to have “freedom”. The dilemma is unsolvable: either God has no freedom, or it is possible to have freedom without the ability to chose evil. This is one of the reasons why the problem of evil cannot be solved by referring to free will.

 

[EricFilmer]

I just don’t understand why anyone would say that they would rather have free will and know that having free will means that many, many human beings will be tortured beyond my ability to contemplate.

I would rather not have free will and know that no child would be raped. No one would die in a death camp. No child would starve to death in it’s mother’s arms. Wouldn’t you? Isn’t the loss of freedom worth that?

I think it comes down to the question as to why we were created in the first place. The Holy Trinity embodies perfect existence, and therefore the universe and the human race were not created out of necessity. God does not need a race of people forced to do his will and incapable of sinning. So, from the perspective of a Divine Being, the easiest way to prevent sin is simply not to create anything in the first place. The problem of evil is solved.

But whereas God did not need to create anything, he willingly chose to do so, because he is both goodness and love, and goodness and love have the natural desire to be shared beyond what is necessary. So God created us to love him and be loved by him. A person cannot truly be created for the sake of goodness and love and at the same time be forced to do the will of the Creator. After all, being forced in such a manner would be a type of slavery.

I understand the analogy of the love potion, too. I get that true love would not be possible without free will, but why can’t God be ok with that? Why does he demand true love if it necessarily means that so many of his beloved creatures will live lives of pure horror? That seems so cruel to me. That kind of logic is the opposite of compassionate, merciful, and loving in my mind.

Although God permits evil (for the sake of honoring our freedom), he also promises to do something about it. Ultimately it is a mystery to us as to how he does it, which is why we place our faith and trust in him. Being God, he is capable of righting wrongs beyond our comprehension. Moreover, even if we have to suffer at times during our lives on earth, everyone is invited to experience the eternal peace and joy in heaven. A saint once contemplated (and I forgot which one) that once someone enters into the wonders of heaven, the past sufferings on earth will seem like having spent a single night in an uncomfortable hotel room. This, of course, is not to make light of the horrific suffering that some people go through, but it serves to show that in light of great suffering, God can provide far greater compensation.