The Problem of Hell

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Please direct me to some good web resources or books on this topic to help catechize a fellow Catholic.

I was speaking with a fellow Catholic who said that he still has a problem getting past the problem of a loving God who would create us knowing that some us would use our free will in such a way as to ultimately be condemned to the eternal torment of Hell. In other words, at the time God created such a person, He knew that he was creating that person to go to Hell.

I don’t think I did such a great job, but I explained that God did not make us to be puppets or pets. He loves us, but he also respects us enough to allow us to exercise our own will. I said that the prescription for salvation is written in the human heart and to look back on the times when he had turned away from God, and if he was honest, he KNEW at the time that he was turning away from God. I asked if his alternative was for God to create all of us to go to Heaven (which He does), but to accomplish that by overriding our will at those moments when we would have turned away from God – and pointed out that this would not be FREE will, but would get us back to the pets or puppets of God model.

I conceded that it is very mysterious that God would create angels and humans knowing that some of these creatures would turn away, thereby instituting Hell as a place for the fallen angels and a place where human souls would go to be tormented. I said that it is not possible to understand the mind of God, but that explanation (simply invoking “mystery”) feels like something of a cop out.

I also said that God does not condemn us to Hell, rather we condemn ourselves. I pointed out to him, for what it’s worth, the consistent private revelations of Hell where people essentially impose damnation upon themselves, or agree that their lives were such that they merit Hell.

I did say that for the our free will to be meaningful in the context of attaining the eternal happiness of Heaven, there needed to be a counterpoint to Heaven if we exercise our free will improperly, that counterpoint being the eternal separation from God.

My problem, apologetically, is that I will read a number of things, integrate what I have read, and eventually become satisfied on an issue. This used to be an issue for me, but is no longer a stumbling block. However, I can’t recall any one particular source to which I could refer this person.

Anyone have any suggestions for books or web articles that I could suggest?
 
FightingFat said:
vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/audiences/1999/documents/hf_jp-ii_aud_28071999_en.html

For me, God does not decide to send us to Hell- we do. We have free will and Hell is the reject and absence of the God for whom we were made; we reject Him, we decide against Him, we isolate ourselves and we choose Hell instead of Him.
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But that doesn’t really answer the OP’s question. And I’ve been stymied by this one in the past too, and think it’s a valid – and perhaps unanswerable – question:

If you know that a sentient being you are creating is going to end up suffering for all eternity - even, granted, by that being’s own choice - and you create it anyway - why aren’t you at least partially responsible for that being’s eventual suffering?

Perhaps there is no answer - perhaps the only answer is the one God gave Job: “Because I’m God and you’re not.” Either you accept that or you don’t.
 
I don’t think the Problem of Evil has ever been sufficiently answered. God is omni-benevolent. If he loves us infinitely, then why would he allow us to go to hell? He is all powerful; he can make us go to heaven if he wants. It is his choice, and his choice alone who goes where. He decides. God knowingly makes people go to hell where they will burn for eternity.

If God is the creator of everything, then God created free will for people. After all, he created our brains and the stimuli in our environment. Whether or not a person becomes Catholic or not is entirely up to God. He knows you’re straying away from his faith. He can do something about it. He is all loving, and does not want you to go to hell. But what? But he has to? He’s God! There’s no one else to blame here. It’s like blaming a chair for breaking when it’s obviously the maker of the chair’s fault.
 
theistgal said:
But that doesn’t really answer the OP’s question. And I’ve been stymied by this one in the past too, and think it’s a valid – and perhaps unanswerable – question:
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If you know that a sentient being you are creating is going to end up suffering for all eternity - even, granted, by that being’s own choice - and you create it anyway - why aren’t you at least partially responsible for that being’s eventual suffering?

Perhaps there is no answer - perhaps the only answer is the one God gave Job: “Because I’m God and you’re not.” Either you accept that or you don’t.

Well I suppose the question then is more about freedom and foreknowledge than Hell, would you agree?

Ultimately, if God knows everything we’ll say and do, how can we have free will? The answer can only be that God is a risk taker- he will always give us the chance to save ourselves and that we always have a chance of salvation-- there has to be some random element of chance in the equation somewhere.

I’ve also heard it said that when we die, we are all given the choice, with the veil lifted from our eyes and we all will know the reality of our existence. Perhaps you might say that who, faced with such a choice, with such knowledge, would then turn away from the beatific vision? Who knows. We are playing guessing games with the divine will and intention and we can never know the answers to such questions-- they’re too big for us to comprehend.
 
Super_Grover said:
Please direct me to some good web resources or books on this topic to help catechize a fellow Catholic.

I was speaking with a fellow Catholic who said that he still has a problem getting past the problem of a loving God who would create us knowing that some us would use our free will in such a way as to ultimately be condemned to the eternal torment of Hell. In other words, at the time God created such a person, He knew that he was creating that person to go to Hell.
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I don’t think the fellow Catholic has a problem with hell so much as he does with the idea of predestination and free will.

Might want to address that.
 
And I’m not even talking about the problem of evil. I’m talking, more specifically, about the problem of Hell. Sure, they are related, but much evil enters into the world through the corruption of that which is good, but does not necessarily endanger any human soul other than that of a person engaging in the evil. Some have argued that God does not permit an evil unless, out of the evil, a greater good is accomplished (Augustine?). Now for some very amateur theology – evil causes suffering, but human suffering united to Christ’s suffering is purgative and beneficial to the one suffering.

What I’m getting at is the problem of the final, eternal, and utterly irrevocable sentence of unimaginable suffering that God sees quite clearly as he creates the very being who will endure it.

It occurs to me that our own concept of “love” could be a problem. We say that “God is love.” But what do we mean by “love.” I know that a popular or contemporary view of love was a stumbling block for me for a time. I did not feel “in love” with any person of the Trinity. I could not have written a love letter to God like the ones so many saints have written. I think the first act of love is obedience, and hopefully the (less important?) feelings of love will naturally develop. And God’s love may mean that he wants what is best for us, but he first wants us to obey him (as a means to achieving what is best for us). The concept of “love” as, first and foremost, involving the demand of obedience from God, and the submission in obedience by us, is rather foreign to the modern mind.

These are my own ramblings and may contain errors, which I would be happy to have pointed out. But I offer them for the purpose of provoking discussion on this issue.

And yes, this problem is perhaps better addressed in terms of predestination. And while this problem is too big to fully comprehend, some good writer out there must have taken a crack at it and come up with some pretty good answers, even if certainly not all the answers.
 
The most simple, most direct answer I could think of is that God created each of us with free will. The **choice **is ours. He does not force himself upon us, but is always there for us. He gave us an intellect to use and revelation to go by. The choice is ours. Anything else would be to take away our will. Even the angels at the moment of their creation had free will and had to make a choice. They could either serve, or not serve. This choice for them was before they ever saw the beatific vision. We all know the consequences.
Prayers & blessings
Deacon Ed B
 
^That’s true, but we should not downplay (as Catholics tend to do) the Catholic DOGMA of Predestination. It is not enough to say “we have Free Will” and just leave it at that. Yes, we do possess Free Will… but this capacity of ours is in harmony with Predestination, rooted in the Divine “Foreknowledge.” We must explain how these two dogmas – which many non-Catholics believe necessarily cross one another out – are reconciled with one another. The Church’s position could be called, in philosophical terms, a kind of compatibilism: Yes, every thought and action we have ever had and made and will ever have and make is predestined (or determined) from eternity… BUT we are also free.

Personally, I don’t think the idea of Free Will makes sense without Predestination. I suspect that a lot of Catholics walk around with a conception of Free Will that is theologically unorthodox or incomplete. This is rooted in a popular catechesis that is lacking in depth.
 
Cajetan said:
^That’s true, but we should not downplay (as Catholics tend to do) the Catholic DOGMA of Predestination.
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The Catholic Church does not, nor has it ever taught predestination as a dogma of the Church. Do not confuse causative knowledge with predestination. They are not synonymous
I may know something is going to happen, but because I know it does not mean I caused it. So to with Gods omniscience.
Prayers & blessisngs
Deacon Ed B.
 
God does not send people to Hell. People choose to go there. For example, Hell is the absence of God. An atheist does not beleive in God. If the atheist goes to Hell he gets to be right all along and live in a world without God. He did not believe in God’s existence and did not desire God while living so why should anything change after death? Seems fair to me. The one that scares me is dieing in a state of mortal sin. However God is merciful so I would hope that people who die in a state of mortal sin but were sorry for their sins will receive God’s mercy. For those who reject God’s mercy, well they can live in the world without it along with the atheist since this is what they desire.
 
Cajetan, thanks for the link. I read it, but I need to read it again when I’m less tired. But somehow, I’m not sure that will make much of a difference. Do you honestly really understand the Catholic dogma of predestination?

I think that what I just read could be easily expanded into a semester of teaching.

At the end, there is a view of predestination that is offered as more attractive, and in that explication, there is this quote from St. Ambrose, “He did not predestine before He foreknew, but for those whose merits He foresaw, He predestined the reward.” If He did not predestine BEFORE he foreknew, is Ambrose saying that he predestined AFTER he foreknew. That seems impossible and a limit on God. Or is Ambrose saying that God predestined SIMULTANEOUSLY, which then obliterates the significance of the distinction that Ambrose seems to be trying to draw. And isn’t any time-based concept such as BEFORE meaningless for God anyway.
 
Cajetan said:
Yes it has and yes it does. With all due respect, Deacon, you need to educate yourself on this matter.
Read:newadvent.org/cathen/12378a.htm
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I have read this reference in the Catholic Encyclopedia. What it is referring to is God’s knowledge, his omniscient knowledge in knowing all things, those who will be saved and those who will be damned, will be exactly that, either saved or damned. God knew before hand those who would be saved and those who would be damned. His knowledge does not change. God did not create to send to hell, he created all to send to heaven. He know which choice we would make, he did not cause us to make our choices. This unalterable knowledge of God is called by Philosophers and Theologians, a causative knowledge, in that it is absolute. It does not mean that God causes you to sin or to go to hell. That is the common lay understanding of predestination. The effect of which is, to think that no matter what I do, if I am predestined to go to hell, I cannot alter that fact. Others, erroneously also think, that if I am predestined to go to heaven, I too cannot alter that fact. The effect of which is people living lives, which they would not otherwise have lived, thinking that there is nothing they can to which can save them. or make them go to hell, which is totally erroneous theology. I am told by Presbyterians whom I know that they will go to heaven as they are all predestined for this. Where is free will in all this. To hold to predestinationism with this concept negates action of free will. This is the predestinationism that the Catholic Church condemns. You and I are talking totally about two different things.
Prayers & blessings
Deacon Ed B
 
Deacon_Ed_B said:
I have read this reference in the Catholic Encyclopedia. What it is referring to is God’s knowledge, his omniscient knowledge in knowing all things, those who will be saved and those who will be damned, will be exactly that, either saved or damned. God knew before hand those who would be saved and those who would be damned. His knowledge does not change. God did not create to send to hell, he created all to send to heaven. He know which choice we would make, he did not cause us to make our choices. This unalterable knowledge of God is called by Philosophers and Theologians, a causative knowledge, in that it is absolute. It does not mean that God causes you to sin or to go to hell. That is the common lay understanding of predestination. The effect of which is, to think that no matter what I do, if I am predestined to go to hell, I cannot alter that fact. Others, erroneously also think, that if I am predestined to go to heaven, I too cannot alter that fact. The effect of which is people living lives, which they would not otherwise have lived, thinking that there is nothing they can to which can save them. or make them go to hell, which is totally erroneous theology. I am told by Presbyterians whom I know that they will go to heaven as they are all predestined for this. Where is free will in all this. To hold to predestinationism with this concept negates action of free will. This is the predestinationism that the Catholic Church condemns. You and I are talking totally about two different things.
Prayers & blessings
Deacon Ed B
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I’m aware of all this.

Predestination is a Catholic Dogma. PreDESTINARIANISM is the Calvinist heresy. They are indeed two different things. Among other things, the Catholic dogma (Predestination) includes free will; the Calvinist heresy (Predestinarianism) excludes it.

Yet, you said earlier that “the Catholic Church does not, nor has it ever taught predestination as a dogma of the Church.” This is a false statement, and I simply called you on it. You were thinking of the Calvinist heresy, which, again, is called Predestinarianism. We must not confuse the terminology, because it is very important.

newadvent.org/cathen/12376b.htm
 
Cajetan said:
Predestination is a Catholic Dogma. PreDESTINARIANISM is the Calvinist heresy. They are indeed two different things. Among other things, the Catholic dogma (Predestination) includes free will; the Calvinist heresy (Predestinarianism) excludes it.
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You are correct. It is the Protestant heresy that I was referring to as this is a common topic of conversation among protestants, which we continuously combat.
Prayers & blessings
Deacon Ed B
 
It’s not just about the predestination.
It’s also about very bad manner of some Denominations , to send the people to hell before ahead.
Also to determine the people’s diagnoses as the people of hell or the people of heaven.

Regarding the hell doctrine .
We can draw some assistance from the literature.
From the works of Literature , the Dostoevskiy’s ‘Brather’s Karamazov’s ‘ , ‘Crime and Punishment’ , the Shakespeares personality of Macbeth and Richard the Third … in my opinion are holding the treasures of the hints for the existance of hell.
The morality not just demanding God , but demands the responsibility of the human being who has got the eternal soul.

The Super Grover is right by saying that for the our free will to be meaningful in the context of attaining the eternal happiness of Heaven, there needed to be a counterpoint to Heaven if we exercise our free will improperly, that counterpoint being the eternal separation from God.

Therefore , as for me , the statements and doctrines of the Jehovah Witnesser’s and some Adventist’s denominations by denying the reality of hell, is a kind of whispering with atheism .
The doctrine of hell is undoubtedly – very important BIBLICAL doctrine.
I would paraphrase the Dostoevskiy utterance – ‘ If there is no God – every thing is permitted ‘,
by the expression – ‘ If there is no hell- every thing is permitted ‘ !
 
It is my understanding that some theologians believe that hell is simply eternal separation from God. It has nothing to do with fire and brimstone. The suffering arises from the separation from God. Of course, if someone didn’t want to be with God, say Satan for example, then there would conceivably be no suffering. Shades of Paraside Lost there, I guess. Still, I think this idea might have some merit but it depends on your conception of God as well. 🤷
 
Swan said:
It is my understanding that some theologians believe that hell is simply eternal separation from God. It has nothing to do with fire and brimstone. The suffering arises from the separation from God. Of course, if someone didn’t want to be with God, say Satan for example, then there would conceivably be no suffering. Shades of Paraside Lost there, I guess. Still, I think this idea might have some merit but it depends on your conception of God as well. 🤷
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This “hell might not be so bad” view is inconsistent with the Bible and the revelations of saints --“theologians” notwithstanding. I think that believers sometimes have their own reasons for soft selling hell. We cannot know for sure who will go to hell, or who is already in hell. God’s mercy can save anyone in ways that we cannot understand. We should focus on our own salvation and the salvation of others, and trust in God’s mercy for those who have already died and pray for them.

But we should resist any temptation to self-deception about the torment of hell and fear it like nothing else.
 
Rainier22 said:
I don’t think the Problem of Evil has ever been sufficiently answered.
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Have you read The Problem of Pain by C.S. Lewis?
He is all powerful; he can make us go to heaven if he wants.
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This sentence is logically incoherent. Heaven is only heaven because it is voluntary. If you are forced to do something, it is not voluntary. Thus, it’s totally meaningless to say that God or anyone can force you to freely enter Heaven.
 
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