The Problem of Hell

[Athanasiy]

The hell is a warning to the Dostoevskiy’s anti - hero , from the ‘Brother’s Karamazov’s , who had an intention, to start a new life when he has got the money and had been possessed with the idea that ‘ everything is permitted ‘.
The hell is a warning for those murderers from Shakespeare’s King Richard , the murderers who strained to assure themselves that …‘ their conscience in the Duke of Gloster’s purse ‘.

Its also the King Richard himself with his … What do I fear ? … myself ?.. and fly from myself ?..
It’s a Macbeth’s submission to that unknown fear and the ‘ conscious hell ‘ …

The hell is a warning for those who by putting the happiness above goodness attempt to snatch at earthly happiness at any price , and by any means …

In my opinion , the hell is very important , necessary , Scriptural doctrine , which is not addressed to the satisfaction of our mental curiosity but addressed to our conscience.

Therefore I think that the hell it’s a Scriptural reality which we can not ignore and underestimate.

 

[Mekio]

And I’m not even talking about the problem of evil. I’m talking, more specifically, about the problem of Hell. Sure, they are related, but much evil enters into the world through the corruption of that which is good, but does not necessarily endanger any human soul other than that of a person engaging in the evil. Some have argued that God does not permit an evil unless, out of the evil, a greater good is accomplished (Augustine?). Now for some very amateur theology – evil causes suffering, but human suffering united to Christ’s suffering is purgative and beneficial to the one suffering.

What I’m getting at is the problem of the final, eternal, and utterly irrevocable sentence of unimaginable suffering that God sees quite clearly as he creates the very being who will endure it.

It occurs to me that our own concept of “love” could be a problem. We say that “God is love.” But what do we mean by “love.” I know that a popular or contemporary view of love was a stumbling block for me for a time. I did not feel “in love” with any person of the Trinity. I could not have written a love letter to God like the ones so many saints have written. I think the first act of love is obedience, and hopefully the (less important?) feelings of love will naturally develop. And God’s love may mean that he wants what is best for us, but he first wants us to obey him (as a means to achieving what is best for us). The concept of “love” as, first and foremost, involving the demand of obedience from God, and the submission in obedience by us, is rather foreign to the modern mind.

These are my own ramblings and may contain errors, which I would be happy to have pointed out. But I offer them for the purpose of provoking discussion on this issue.

And yes, this problem is perhaps better addressed in terms of predestination. And while this problem is too big to fully comprehend, some good writer out there must have taken a crack at it and come up with some pretty good answers, even if certainly not all the answers.

I’ve been struck by the same question recently and can’t help but contribute to the discussion.

Based on all that has been discussed, I want to ask the following: When God created us, He had the foreknowledge whether each soul will ultimately choose to love Him or reject Him. Based on this knowledge, could He not have created souls that will ultimately choose to reject Him and suffer eternal damnation? I emphasize the word “choose” because in this case He would not have infringed on our free will.

Furthermore, even souls in Hell are continually sustained by God to exist (since we are all created from nothing); yet they suffer because of their eternal rejection of Him. In this case, couldn’t God simply will them to cease to exist? Instead of continually holding them to existence and having them suffer eternally? I could not reconcile this with our belief in the loving God.

I know my understanding is still very limited so any help and clarification will be appreciated. Thanks for all replies in advance.

Any thoughts?

 

[Deacon_Ed_B]

The main responses have already been given. It is not God who sends us to hell, but those souls who reject God who choose to go to hell. If God created only those souls who would pick him, there in essence would be no free will. What people are missing in this discussion, is that to show his love for us, God knew from before creation that he would have to become man and suffer the most cruel and inhumain death of crucifixion. Yet he loved us enough to undergo this cruel death, so we could be with him in heaven. If we question God’s love for us, put that fact into the equation and we can then see the extent of his love. He fulfilled his part. It’s time we fulfilled ours.
Prayers & blessings
Deacon Ed B

 

[Mekio]

The main responses have already been given. It is not God who sends us to hell, but those souls who reject God who choose to go to hell. If God created only those souls who would pick him, there in essence would be no free will. What people are missing in this discussion, is that to show his love for us, God knew from before creation that he would have to become man and suffer the most cruel and inhumain death of crucifixion. Yet he loved us enough to undergo this cruel death, so we could be with him in heaven. If we question God’s love for us, put that fact into the equation and we can then see the extent of his love. He fulfilled his part. It’s time we fulfilled ours.
Prayers & blessings
Deacon Ed B

Thanks for your answer, Deacon. I agree with you that God does not send people to hell, but rather people freely and deliberately choose to reject Him. Yet theoretically isn’t it possible for Him to only create people whom He knows are going to ultimately choose to love Him? I’m not saying that God should create robots, but people who will ultimately choose to love Him. So in this case free will is still intact.

Imagine that you are a teacher with a classroom full of students, all equipped with their own free will either to obey you and learn or rebel and not do their homeworks. If everyone in the class happen to choose to obey you and do their homeworks, then you don’t need to send anyone to detention, right? Does that mean that they don’t have a choice or free will?

In the same rationale, if everyone chooses to love God, then hell need not exist.

 

[onetimeposter]

Furthermore, even souls in Hell are continually sustained by God to exist (since we are all created from nothing); yet they suffer because of their eternal rejection of Him. In this case, couldn’t God simply will them to cease to exist? Instead of continually holding them to existence and having them suffer eternally? I could not reconcile this with our belief in the loving God.

Fascinating thought…any ideas? I’m at a loss for a response to this one.

 

[CatsAndDogs]

Thanks for your answer, Deacon. I agree with you that God does not send people to hell, but rather people freely and deliberately choose to reject Him. Yet theoretically isn’t it possible for Him to only create people whom He knows are going to ultimately choose to love Him? I’m not saying that God should create robots, but people who will ultimately choose to love Him. So in this case free will is still intact.

A basic premise that we seem to be forgetting is that God does not destroy that which He has created.

If God were to create only those people who were going to choose to love Him (the heaven bound) it would change the “mix” in which those people who choose Him exist, as no “unbelievers” would be created to interact with.

This reduces (rather ad absurdum) to the situation where God creates a “perfect universe” in which no sin ever happens and therefore no suffering, and all is utterly good because evil never happens or could happen.

This IS the “perfect robot world” version of what COULD have done, but didn’t.

For God to give free will to His creations, He necessarily gave justice to them as well. Free will and justice are intimately connected. One cannot exist without the other.

The amazing thing is that God tempered both free will and justice with mercy. He “tweaks” our free will (our ability to choose) with the grace of revelation, and He “tweaks” our corresponding justice (the result of our choices) with the grace of forgiveness.

But ONLY while we are “not yet dead” is His mercy available to us. After that, all that is available to us is His love, which never ceases, and with makes us utterly happy (blessed) in heaven, and utterly tormented (cursed) in hell.

In both heaven and hell we know that He utterly and most beautifully loves us, but in one place we can return it, while in the other place we can’t return it.

Imagine that you are a teacher with a classroom full of students, all equipped with their own free will either to obey you and learn or rebel and not do their homeworks. If everyone in the class happen to choose to obey you and do their homeworks, then you don’t need to send anyone to detention, right? Does that mean that they don’t have a choice or free will?

In the same rationale, if everyone chooses to love God, then hell need not exist.

But there ARE people who “don’t learn to obey”, and that is the reason that hell DOES exist.

 

[CatsAndDogs]

Furthermore, even souls in Hell are continually sustained by God to exist (since we are all created from nothing); yet they suffer because of their eternal rejection of Him.

In this case, couldn’t God simply will them to cease to exist? Instead of continually holding them to existence and having them suffer eternally? I could not reconcile this with our belief in the loving God.

God does not destroy that which He created good.

This is the Catholic “conservation of mass” principle.

God wills the eternal existence of ALL things which He has created, and as only the angels and men have the good called “free will” and “intellect”, those eternal things, which are essentially/inseparately bound to persons, He will not destroy those persons under any circumstances.

To cause to cease to exist that which He has created good is to admit a mistake. God does not make mistakes, and has no mistake to admit to.

 

[Mekio]

@CatsAndDogs: Beautiful answers, couldn’t have said it better myself.

A basic premise that we seem to be forgetting is that God does not destroy that which He has created.

What do you mean? I am not suggesting that God should reorganize the whole universe from scratch (thought it is within His power). I am simply trying to ponder the reason of why He did what He did.

If God were to create only those people who were going to choose to love Him (the heaven bound) it would change the “mix” in which those people who choose Him exist, as no “unbelievers” would be created to interact with.

This reduces (rather ad absurdum) to the situation where God creates a “perfect universe” in which no sin ever happens and therefore no suffering, and all is utterly good because evil never happens or could happen.

This IS the “perfect robot world” version of what COULD have done, but didn’t.

There we go with the “robotic” references again (I was trying soo hard to get away from them!). I have a feeling people here have some kind of prejudice against the robotic kind Just kidding!

By the way, isn’t heaven kinda like the “perfect robot world” that you are talking about? The place where no homework is left undone.

Maybe this all comes down to the problem of evil, which is a Mystery. Praise the Lord!

 

[CatsAndDogs]

Quote:
Originally Posted by CatsAndDogs
A basic premise that we seem to be forgetting is that God does not destroy that which He has created.

What do you mean? I am not suggesting that God should reorganize the whole universe from scratch (thought it is within His power). I am simply trying to ponder the reason of why He did what He did.

He did what He did because He is who He is.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CatsAndDogs
If God were to create only those people who were going to choose to love Him (the heaven bound) it would change the “mix” in which those people who choose Him exist, as no “unbelievers” would be created to interact with.

This reduces (rather ad absurdum) to the situation where God creates a “perfect universe” in which no sin ever happens and therefore no suffering, and all is utterly good because evil never happens or could happen.

This IS the “perfect robot world” version of what COULD have done, but didn’t.

There we go with the “robotic” references again (I was trying soo hard to get away from them!). I have a feeling people here have some kind of prejudice against the robotic kind Just kidding!

Actually, we DO have a sensitivity to the idea of robots! We are often accused of BEING robots (to the “Great Mindcontroller Pope”), and we are often assailed by those who WANT to be subject to a “MASTER” who utterly overides anyone’s free will.

By the way, isn’t heaven kinda like the “perfect robot world” that you are talking about? The place where no homework is left undone.

No. Heaven (including purgatory, of course) is only a part of God’s creation, and is counter-balanced by hell (including “the abyss” which is a sortof “hell for demons”).

Joy and torment will always balance perfectly. Or maybe not. Hopefully not, with the greater weight being in joy. But I doubt it.

 

[Nickkname]

Here’s a little something to remember when you consider God and hell:

Judas betrayed Jesus. Jesus foreknew he would be betrayed, yet he did not tell Judas. He respected his free will and understood, so far as his human mind could, that Judas’ betrayal was part of God’s plan - not that God was directing Judas but that he was permitting Judas to betray him, that he may bring a greater good out of the evil. Jesus told the Twelve at the Last Supper that one would betray him. This was not too new; he had spoke before about being betrayed. But now he was letting them know that he was going to be betrayed by one of his Apostles. Judas knew it was him he was talking about. Much earlier on in his ministry, Jesus said it would be better for Judas to never have been born than for him to betray him; in other words, Judas was going to go hell, and while it certainly would have been better for him to never have been created by God than to be created and go to hell, it was in fact Judas’ free choice to seperate himself from the Lord. And afrer he betrayed Jesus, Judas repented. But he could not accept God’s Mercy; he thought, because he had betrayed God, God would never forgive him; and so, believing that his sin was greater than God’s Mercy, Judas blasmephized against the Holy Spirit, hung himself in despair, and was damned to hell.

I believe the story of Judas sheds great light on God and hell.

 

[Deacon_Ed_B]

Look at it this way. God does not force himself on us, but is there for us to freely choose him. He is always there for us. Even our existence, and our after life with him is merited by none of us. Yet he gives sit out of love. What people do not understand is that because of his infiniteness, any offense against God, whether a venial or mortal sin, is a greater evil and offense than any punishment ever given by him whether it be purgatory or hell. yet his greatest attribute is mercy. He forgives as many times as we are sorry for our offenses, no matter how great or evil. Then we dare question his goodness or justice by questioning hell. Something seems terribly wrong to me with that equation.
Prayers & blessings
Deacon Ed B

 

[onetimeposter]

Then we dare question his goodness or justice by questioning hell. Something seems terribly wrong to me with that equation.
Prayers & blessings
Deacon Ed B

Better to question, so as to learn.

 

[allhers]

For the Op, here are some sources for you.
The beginning of hell is to listen to the serpent who urges us to decide for ourselves what is good or evil with out reference to God.
ewtn.com/faith/teachings/hellb1.htm
Heaven, Hell and Purgatory:
ewtn.com/library/PAPALDOC/JP2HEAVN.HTM#Hell
catholic.com/library/Hell_There_Is.asp

 

[CatsAndDogs]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Deacon Ed B
Then we dare question his goodness or justice by questioning hell. Something seems terribly wrong to me with that equation.
Prayers & blessings
Deacon Ed B

Better to question, so as to learn.

But the question is: Better to question WHAT?

It’s only PERMISSIBLE to question the Church about why we should believe her at all, and NEVER PERMISSIBLE to question any one dogma (or set of same) as to it’s truthfulness after we’ve come to KNOW that all her dogmas are to be believed, which is what “being a Catholic” means.

Those who “question [the truthfulness]” of any one dogma are not actually CATHOLICS, but rather Christians (at best) who, if they profess to BE Catholics, have broken their baptismal/confirmation vow.

 

[Mekio]

Here’s a little something to remember when you consider God and hell:

Judas betrayed Jesus. Jesus foreknew he would be betrayed, yet he did not tell Judas. He respected his free will and understood, so far as his human mind could, that Judas’ betrayal was part of God’s plan - not that God was directing Judas but that he was permitting Judas to betray him, that he may bring a greater good out of the evil. Jesus told the Twelve at the Last Supper that one would betray him. This was not too new; he had spoke before about being betrayed. But now he was letting them know that he was going to be betrayed by one of his Apostles. Judas knew it was him he was talking about. Much earlier on in his ministry, Jesus said it would be better for Judas to never have been born than for him to betray him; in other words, Judas was going to go hell, and while it certainly would have been better for him to never have been created by God than to be created and go to hell, it was in fact Judas’ free choice to seperate himself from the Lord. And afrer he betrayed Jesus, Judas repented. But he could not accept God’s Mercy; he thought, because he had betrayed God, God would never forgive him; and so, believing that his sin was greater than God’s Mercy, Judas blasmephized against the Holy Spirit, hung himself in despair, and was damned to hell.

I believe the story of Judas sheds great light on God and hell.

@Nickkname: I believe the Church have never formally mentioned any individual soul who are certainly in hell; rather She teaches of Saints who are certainly in heaven. The fate of Judas is ultimately in God’s hands and we do not know where he really ended up.

Matthew 26:21-25 21 And whilst they were eating, he said: Amen I say to you, that one of you is about to betray me. 22 And they being very much troubled, began every one to say: Is it I, Lord? 23 But he answering, said: He that dippeth his hand with me in the dish, he shall betray me. 24 The Son of man indeed goeth, as it is written of him: but woe to that man by whom the Son of man shall be betrayed: it were better for him, if that man had not been born. 25 And Judas that betrayed him, answering, said: Is it I, Rabbi? He saith to him: Thou hast said it. (Douay-Rheims)

Mark 14:16-21 16 And his disciples went their way, and came into the city; and they found as he had told them, and they prepared the pasch. 17 And when evening was come, he cometh with the twelve. 18 And when they were at table and eating, Jesus saith: Amen I say to you, one of you that eateth with me shall betray me. 19 But they began to be sorrowful, and to say to him one by one: Is it I? 20 Who saith to them: One of the twelve, who dippeth with me his hand in the dish. 21 And the Son of man indeed goeth, as it is written of him: but woe to that man by whom the Son of man shall be betrayed. It were better for him, if that man had not been born. (Douay-Rheims)

“It were better for him, if that man had not been born.”

This saying of the Lord has always puzzled me indeed. Looking at the surface, how can the Lord and Creator have said this of one of the creatures whom He created?

But therein, I think lies the Mystery of creation. God–the infinite Being–created out of Love, finite beings (us and the angels and maybe other things) that are capable of both loving Him and rejecting Him. Maybe that’s just how the nature of Love is: God loves us so much that He allows us not to love Him back.

Sometimes I do wonder what determines whether a person will choose God or otherwise. And of course since God continually wills us in existence, there is also the Mystery of how we can reconcile our free will with His Omnipotence.

 

[Nickkname]

@Nickkname: I believe the Church have never formally mentioned any individual soul who are certainly in hell; rather She teaches of Saints who are certainly in heaven. The fate of Judas is ultimately in God’s hands and we do not know where he really ended up.

Matthew 26:21-25 21 And whilst they were eating, he said: Amen I say to you, that one of you is about to betray me. 22 And they being very much troubled, began every one to say: Is it I, Lord? 23 But he answering, said: He that dippeth his hand with me in the dish, he shall betray me. 24 The Son of man indeed goeth, as it is written of him: but woe to that man by whom the Son of man shall be betrayed: it were better for him, if that man had not been born. 25 And Judas that betrayed him, answering, said: Is it I, Rabbi? He saith to him: Thou hast said it. (Douay-Rheims)

Mark 14:16-21 16 And his disciples went their way, and came into the city; and they found as he had told them, and they prepared the pasch. 17 And when evening was come, he cometh with the twelve. 18 And when they were at table and eating, Jesus saith: Amen I say to you, one of you that eateth with me shall betray me. 19 But they began to be sorrowful, and to say to him one by one: Is it I? 20 Who saith to them: One of the twelve, who dippeth with me his hand in the dish. 21 And the Son of man indeed goeth, as it is written of him: but woe to that man by whom the Son of man shall be betrayed. It were better for him, if that man had not been born. (Douay-Rheims)

“It were better for him, if that man had not been born.”

This saying of the Lord has always puzzled me indeed. Looking at the surface, how can the Lord and Creator have said this of one of the creatures whom He created?

But therein, I think lies the Mystery of creation. God–the infinite Being–created out of Love, finite beings (us and the angels and maybe other things) that are capable of both loving Him and rejecting Him. Maybe that’s just how the nature of Love is: God loves us so much that He allows us not to love Him back.

Sometimes I do wonder what determines whether a person will choose God or otherwise. And of course since God continually wills us in existence, there is also the Mystery of how we can reconcile our free will with His Omnipotence.

(I deleted my post. It was a bit rude)

 

[CatsAndDogs]

“It were better for him, if that man had not been born.”

This saying of the Lord has always puzzled me indeed. Looking at the surface, how can the Lord and Creator have said this of one of the creatures whom He created?

We are given existence. It is better to not to have EVER been given that gift than to suffer eternally by rejecting God’s merciful offer.

The non-existent don’t suffer, and are to be envied by those who suffer eternally. Therefore, choose wisely if you’ve been given existence, since there is no way to “return” your existence for a “refund”.

But therein, I think lies the Mystery of creation. God–the infinite Being–created out of Love, finite beings (us and the angels and maybe other things) that are capable of both loving Him and rejecting Him. Maybe that’s just how the nature of Love is: God loves us so much that He allows us not to love Him back.

Sometimes I do wonder what determines whether a person will choose God or otherwise. And of course since God continually wills us in existence, there is also the Mystery of how we can reconcile our free will with His Omnipotence.

He has gifted us free will, and can’t perform a “mistake”, therefore the only one who COULD have gifted us this gift (the omnipotent) eternally allows us the result of our use of this gift (free will), and will not “take back that which was mistakenly given”, because it was not mistakenly given.

 

[Mekio]

We are given existence. It is better to not to have EVER been given that gift than to suffer eternally by rejecting God’s merciful offer.

The non-existent don’t suffer, and are to be envied by those who suffer eternally. Therefore, choose wisely if you’ve been given existence, since there is no way to “return” your existence for a “refund”.

Agreed, but bear in mind that we did not choose to exist.

He has gifted us free will, and can’t perform a “mistake”, therefore the only one who COULD have gifted us this gift (the omnipotent) eternally allows us the result of our use of this gift (free will), and will not “take back that which was mistakenly given”, because it was not mistakenly given.

Agreed as well, I do not think that God made a “mistake”, but I am trying to figure out why He did what He did.

I just think that the existence of hell is such a tragedy, that evil exist as a result of (or “byproduct”) of our free will. No one should suffer eternal damnation. It just seems too cruel.

Just my 2 cents.

 

[Deacon_Ed_B]

I just think that the existence of hell is such a tragedy, that evil exist as a result of (or “byproduct”) of our free will. No one should suffer eternal damnation. It just seems too cruel.Just my 2 cents.

As cruel as it seems, one sin is a greater offense against our infinite God than a thousand hells could ever be against sinful man. . We are not infinite in goodness, love mercy or justice. We are finite and sinful. Of ourselves we deserve nothing, but because of God, we can claim to be adopted children of God and heirs to the kingdom of heaven. Not on any merit or deserts on our part, but simply because of his infinite love, mercy, forgiveness, all of which are given as often as we truly say we are sorry. Only God can love this much. Only God can forgive this much. Only God can be this merciful.
Prayers & blessings
Deacon Ed B

 

[SedesDomi]

Hell is only a problem if you’re in it, or headed for it.