The Problem of Hell

[lemondiesel]

Catholics don’t believe in ‘double predestination’. While it could be said that each individual has ‘determined’ his or her destination, we do not believe that it is a 'time event set in stone where one could say, “Solomon Grundy, born on Monday, married on Tuesday, etc. to 'denied God forever on Sunday and that’s the end of Solomon Grundy”.

God does not ‘know ahead of time’ in the sense that God specifically creates an individual and ‘knows’ that they will reject Him but hey, He’s gonna do it anyway. That’s a Calvinist concept of God.

Rather, God creates people and gives them constant ‘choices’ throughout their lives. At literally a million ‘points’ in life, a person could choose eternal bliss rather than eternal damnation. And that person never ‘unknowingly’ or ‘unwittingly’ chooses hell.

You seem to have an erroneous belief that God is ‘unfair’ or ‘unkind’.

Please tell me how any person ‘deserves’ to have eternal bliss. I mean, really. But if they choose it, God gives it to them.

So why is it all right for them, but all WRONG if they choose eternal hell? And, interestingly, whereas nobody DESERVES eternal bliss, we all DO deserve eternal hell for our sins. In a way, those who choose it are choosing what they DESERVE, even though God, out of His supreme goodness, is willing to give us, instead of what we DESERVE, the eternal joy we do not deserve but which is ours IF WE ASK IT.

All I was saying is, if God knows all, then he knows where individuals will end up as soon as they are created. Even with those constant choices, doesn’t God already know which choice the individual will make? If so, then yes he creates individuals already knowing they are going to hell. The Abrahamic God already damns people without them even truly knowing.

Now if they chose to change their evil ways, God already knew this, that is why those constant choices are present, to allow the individual to “think” they are making right choices. For the ones who do not switch, God already knew they wouldn’t, so he damned them to hell for all eternity.

 

[ddarko]

I’m not suggesting that nobody sins, but rather that God could make sure to give us what’s best for us, regardless of what we ask of him.

Its not a matter of what God is giving. Its about the result of your actions. If the result is eternal, thats just it. If you kill somebody, the result is eternal. Similarly, you are doomed to hell if you sin. God has however in his love provided a way out; Sacrament of reconciliation. So if you choose to not take the hand thats offered, I don’t see why God should shove it down your throat. It seems to me that you are arguing for an absurd position

That is God’s choice, and God is responsible for it. He’s also responsible as creator for whatever suffering goes on in this world. So, maybe you want to say that this is the best “possible” universe, which is better than no universe at all, so that we should be pleased with God’s decision to create what he did. But God is still responsible.

I am not sure what this part of your problem is. It appears to be more along the lines of the Problem of evil than the concept of Hell. Evil can be allowed to happen by God for the greater good. But the choice to do evil was entirely within the individual. Ex: You can choose to kill someone and that was entirely your choice. The death of the person could be allowed by God for the greater good and there is no issue then. So since the sin of murder was a personal choice, God is not responsible for the sin at all.

 

[Betterave]

Simple point: If I know (and even if I had known for all eternity) that I will eat spaghetti tomorrow if my wife makes spaghetti for dinner, *and *I know that she will, this does not imply that I have already eaten spaghetti tomorrow and that I am actually the one who will make it.

 

[Desertsailor]

Remember, God created hell, in order for us to have free will, so God can easily end it as well.

God didn’t create hell. That’s a nuts idea.

 

[lemondiesel]

God didn’t create hell. That’s a nuts idea.

How is that nuts? In order to even have free will God had to create good and evil to choose from. Do you think he just created Satan, not knowing he would eventually fall and create the realm of Hell? God had to create hell.

 

[Coleski]

I have amended my previous post, to read further.

Heaven and Hell are ultimate destinations. There is a phrase used in the Bible, especially in the New Testament, that is to loose or bind, as in Peter being given the authority to loose or bind the judged to Heaven or Hell. One way to look at is that Jesus saved his most harsh invective for the Pharisees; the pious prigs of His time. Jesus was sympathetic to sinners who repented. Those filled with pride and a surly unwillingness to repent are headed towards eternal damnation. We struggle with our loosing or binding. The Greeks looked at the Apollonian and Dionysian spirits as opposites. It seems the in control Apollonian and the wild and free Dionysian’s were proud in their sin, refusing to repent. What are these spirits? Well if you want to play rock and roll guitar loose and free a few drinks seem to loosen you up and play better. This struggle is very well portrayed in the movie about Johnny Cash, Walk the line. In fact that song is about that struggle. I especially recall the scene were Johnny Cash are rehearsing and drinking tons of beer. One of Johnny’s last songs God will cut you down says it all. June Carter stepped in to put an end to the session.
But again, try to do a complex math problem drunk or drive a car for that matter. The opposite would be the so in control philosopher/scientist who is all logic and no heart. Nietzsche chose the Dionysian way and hated the in control humanist Christians of his time. We’ve all faced those persons filled with pride who are unreachable; they could be a totally in control CEO or a drunken rock star. They could both end up in Hell if their pride makes them unreachable to other humans and even to God. God has given us freewill. This is a terrible gift for though we have a beginning we have no end and our will determines our ultimate destiny. The Catholic concept of purgatory gives those of us who partially give in to the will of God some room after we die I hope. But as Jesus said on the cross; not my will be done but thine will be done to His Father. Humans who use human reasoning for God tread dangerous ground. This is what Eve desired in wanting to know good and evil. Satanists as one foolish poster here is thinking of taking up, want it both ways, to do both good and evil as little gods. It’s those little gods who are likely to go to hell and they will deserve it. That Cathedral in Europe with the surprised faces of the damned is a good warning to all of us.

 

[dostoyevskyfan]

Is there a point to being tortured for a finite time prior to annihilation? What could that be?

That’s probably the best argument against annihilationism I’ve seen.

The only logical options for hell are apocatastasis, or an eternal hell. To be on the safe side, it is probably best to teach an infinite duration, and for this to be the official position of the Church. This probably explains Augustine’s rejection of the former.

 

[fhansen]

How is that nuts? In order to even have free will God had to create good and evil to choose from. Do you think he just created Satan, not knowing he would eventually fall and create the realm of Hell? God had to create hell.

God simply had to create a good and ordered universe and grant free will to beings of His choice. Evil followed from beings who freely chose to operate outside the order God created.

 

[VeritasSeeker]

Ok first off I want to thank everyone for responding to my question. Yes, my previous statement that we are finite beings is definitely wrong from a Traditional Christian perspective (one that accepts unconditional immortality). I apologize for the misrepresentation. I will try to lay out the tenets of my argument and answer some of the previous posts as well. So the problem of Hell is one that is essentially to do with the justness of hell. The problem of Hell concerns both the necessity of Hell and the duration of Hell. Though the former is easily solved by the following argument:

                 Argument for the Necessity of Hell

1. Given the existence of an all Just God no sins will go unpunished
2. However, sins do go unpunished in this life.
3. Therefore, Either Hell (punishment after death) exists or God is not all just.

Now (moving on the crux of the thread) the problem regarding the duration of hell is not as easily solved. The apparent problem is the seeming contradiction between an eternal hell and an All just God. It is traditionally held that hell is eternal, however there are some theists that say that souls are not damned for eternity but only for a temporal duration. This problem is formally called Traditionalism vs Annihilationism. The annihilationist will argue that during our life on earth we can only sin a temporal amount, and so only a temporal amount of punishment is warranted. I will restate the argument to be clear:

                          Argument for the Unjustness of Eternal Hell

1. For a punishment to be considered just it must be proportionate to the sin committed.
2. Eternal punishment for temporal sin is disproportionate.
3. Therefore Eternal punishment for temporal sin is Unjust.
4. So if eternal punishment exists, then an all Just God does not exist.

Now this argument is a valid argument so if the premises are true than the conclusion must necessarily be true. I will now examine the truth of the premises:

Premise 1: Seems to be self-evident. For a punishment to be considered just it must be proportionate to the sin committed. As an example, none of us would say that a 10 year sentence for a child stealing candy is just. Also no one would consider someone like Hitler receiving a 10 year sentence to be just either (in fact it might be the case that no earthly punishment is proportionate to Hitler’s crimes).

Premise 2: Now eternal punishment for temporal sin, seems at least prima facie to be unjust. I mean God could just punish people for trillions and trillions of years (wow), but eternal punishment? It seems to be the case that something like trillions and trillions of years of punishment would be sufficient punishment for the crimes that we humans can commit in our short earthly existence.

Premise 3 & Premise 4: They necessarily follow if the first two premises are true.
(notice, this is not my view, I am only trying to offer the argument in the most charitable light.)

 

[VeritasSeeker]

Now regarding some posts:

Though there are philosophical problems that can question the validity of premise 2 & 3 along the lines of what it means to be eternal and temporal, I would attack premise 1 directly.
The punishment of hell is proportionate since the punishment is the crime it self (Peter Kreeft, Handbook of Apologetics). The reason why many people have problems with hell is due to misunderstanding the graveness of sin. Sin is denying God. There is nothing temporal about it. The only way to make amends is to ask for forgiveness and correct one self. If not, the person would have denied God and thus will get the opportunity to live his life in the absence of God i.e. Hell. So hell is the ***result ***of the choice one made and not an external punishment that is tacked on to the persons actions. Results can obviously be eternal though the corresponding actions might be temporal (Take killing a person for an example). Therefore, premise 1 cannot stand and similarly the argument.
(If you are interested in the attack against premise 2 & 3, I would refer you to the same book I referenced above.)
Hope that helps.
God Bless

So it has been objected that Premise 2 is false because there are no temporal sins, since we are sinning against an Eternal God. But this response doesn’t seem to hold any water. Imagine a person whose only sin was stealing one candy bar (a logical possibility). This person is unrepentant (prior to death) so he gets stuck in eternal hell. That doesn’t sound just at all, in this case eternal punishment would be disproportionate to the sin of stealing a candy bar.

People need to be aware of the fact that eternity is not an endless stream of TIME. It is OUTSIDE TIME. Therefore to argue that ‘eternal punishment’ is unfair stems from a gross misunderstanding of what eternity is.

Also, the presentation of the words ‘punishment’ rather than ‘choice’ seem to imply that the poor, poor human is being ‘unfairly’ treated.

Note also that nobody comes on to say, “Hey, here are people being admitted to Heaven, to eternal bliss, even though they sinned during their lives. Well that just isn’t FAIR that their limited, finite ‘repentence for sin’ gets them ETERNAL REWARD. Unfair, unfair!”

So it has been objected that due to the ambiguity of the word “eternity” the aforementioned argument for the unjustness of eternal hell does not hold any water. To be clear there are two definitions of eternity:

1. Timelessness
2. An actually infinite amount of time
   However, it seems to me that whichever definition is agreed to does not take away from the force of the argument. Either of the cases, whether timeless punishment or an infinite durational punishment would be disproportionate to temporal sins(in time).

Is there a point to being tortured for a finite time prior to annihilation? What could that be?

The point would be that a finite amount of punishment prior (if assuming eternity def. 2) to annihilation would be sufficient to satisfy God’s justice.

-Once again I thank you for the posts

 

[Zatzat]

Wrong! We are not finite beings. Apparently once a spiritual entity is created, it exists forever even God cannot destroy it.

1. You know this how?
2. How could an omnipotent being not have the power to will something out of existence? Wouldn’t that be a limitation of his power and therefor, nullify his status as an omnipotent being?

 

[Zatzat]

So it has been objected that Premise 1 is false because there are no temporal sins, since we are sinning against an Eternal God. But this response doesn’t seem to hold any water. Imagine a person whose only sin was stealing one candy bar (a logical possibility). This person is unrepentant (prior to death) so he gets stuck in eternal hell. That doesn’t sound just at all, in this case eternal punishment would be disproportionate to the sin of stealing a candy bar.

Correct. A 13 year old stealing a 75 cent candy bar is enough to condemn him to hell for eternity.

Justice?

Obviously not.

 

[dostoyevskyfan]

The point would be that a finite amount of punishment prior (if assuming eternity def. 2) to annihilation would be sufficient to satisfy God’s justice.

-Once again I thank you for the posts

Ignore the fact that it’s heresy, and that believing in the above doctrine makes you a protestant, but why would God create a soul just to destroy it? It doesn’t satisfy God’s justice because for the destroyed souls, it will be as if God never created those souls to begin with after he destroys them. With the destruction of consciousness, it renders the existence of those souls meaningless; much like an atheistic existence. Why would God bother to create those souls to begin with?

Also the koine greek for the passages speaking of hell in the Bible suggest an infinite duration. the phrase “forever and ever” translated into greek suggests infinity, it is the only way to express infinity in the greek language and technically means “age of ages” or “ages upon ages” since the word “infinity” did not exist in greek at that time.

I suggest you look up all the passages concerning hell in the Bible. There are many of them. What do you make of the one that says, “their fire is not quenched and their worm does not die” ???

 

[dostoyevskyfan]

Also read Dante’s inferno. I suspect that is how hell will function because it makes logical sense.

Socrates place in hell and experience there seems vastly different from suicides, who are transformed into a tree stump, homosexuals, who walk a scorched beach, and Judas, who is in the deepest bowels of it all.

The greek philosophers position in hell does not seem all that unpleasant, even though they never quite get to experience “joy” fully, they are not without hope.

I have a sneaking suspicion that the punishment for stealing a candy bar will be different from say the punishment of the atheist Stalin, who was responsible for the genocide of 10 million eastern orthodox christians at holodomor via starvation, and the execution of the vast majority of the clergy there.

 

[Zatzat]

Also read Dante’s inferno. I suspect that is how hell will function because it makes logical sense.

Socrates place in hell and experience there seems vastly different from suicides, who are transformed into a tree stump, homosexuals, who walk a scorched beach, and Judas, who is in the deepest bowels of it all.

The greek philosophers position in hell does not seem all that unpleasant, even though they never quite get to experience “joy” fully, they are not without hope.

I have a sneaking suspicion that the punishment for stealing a candy bar will be different from say the punishment of the atheist Stalin, who was responsible for the genocide of 10 million eastern orthodox christians at holodomor via starvation, and the execution of the vast majority of the clergy there.

Eternal damnation has different levels of severity? Who would have set up such a system of damnation?

 

[Desertsailor]

How is that nuts? In order to even have free will God had to create good and evil to choose from. Do you think he just created Satan, not knowing he would eventually fall and create the realm of Hell? God had to create hell.

It’s nuts because God didn’t create Hell. God didn’t create evil. God created Lucifer because he loved him and then Lucifer’s pride caused him to lose the war and he was cast out of where ever the angels were when they were tested. The devils made hell as a refuge from God.
Don’t start thinking God created sin because He didn’t.

 

[Desertsailor]

Correct. A 13 year old stealing a 75 cent candy bar is enough to condemn him to hell for eternity.

Justice?

Obviously not.

It’s a venal sin not a mortal sin. Please stop thinking like a protestant.

 

[Bob_Crowley]

Hey, I am writing a paper on the the problem of hell and wold like to hear your opinions/ answers on this “problem”, (anihilationism): We are finite beings and therefore can only sin a finite amount. So our temporal sins can only warrant a temporal punishment. Therefore, If God is all just, then hell cannot be eternal. This annihilationist view is held by Seventh day Adventists and Jehovah Witnesses. It must be admitted that this is, at least at first glance, a powerful argument. God could damn people for aeons and aeons and then annihilate them instead of damning them for eternity.

• Thanks in advance!

We are eternal beings, and not merely temporal. We are temporal while we’re here on earth, but if somebody dies, and remains eternally unrepentant in spirit, then what?

 

[lemondiesel]

It’s nuts because God didn’t create Hell. God didn’t create evil. God created Lucifer because he loved him and then Lucifer’s pride caused him to lose the war and he was cast out of where ever the angels were when they were tested. The devils made hell as a refuge from God.
Don’t start thinking God created sin because He didn’t.

Okay, so if God did not create sin, How did he give us “free will” then? If he didn’t create sins, then we could only do good, therefore we truly would not have free will. God knows all, once Lucifer is created, God already knew he would turn on him, and create the evils of the world.

God thus created the good choices and the bad choices

I could go all day about this.

 

[Zatzat]

It’s nuts because God didn’t create Hell. God didn’t create evil. God created Lucifer because he loved him and then Lucifer’s pride caused him to lose the war and he was cast out of where ever the angels were when they were tested. The devils made hell as a refuge from God.
Don’t start thinking God created sin because He didn’t.

Then why didn’t God banish Satan to some planet a thousand light years from earth and prohibit Satan from contacting his children?

Why didn’t God use his omiscience to plant the tree somewhere that Eve wouldn’t be able to get to it…like on the top of a tall mountain?