The Problem of Hell

[davidv]

I’m going to answer this assuming that which I think I know about Catholicism is accurate. If I have made a fallacy, please feel free to let me know.

**(1) **First, the church teaches that only those who have be baptized IN (or at least BY) the church are even hypothetically eligible for salvation.

Since only about 33% of humans self-identify just as Christian, much less Catholic, that leaves 2/3’s of us out in the cold. When you consider that only a sub-set of Christians are Catholic (I know not what that number is), it’s even worse.

Even assuming that 100% of baptized Catholics are given salvation, that still means a great majority of us are headed for eternal torture, and indeed the church teaches that cannot be the case. For to receive salvation, one must not only believe, but one must die when NOT in a state of mortal sin.

(2) So a young, 20-something married couple who has sex using a condom is in mortal sin, but they go to confession and are released from that sin, so when they are killed in a car crash on the way home, they go to heaven. (3) On the other hand, an identical couple who dies in a car crash while on the way to confess is doomed to hell. And, yet another identical couple, Christian, but not catholic, who does not believe in (or participate in) confession, lives a long, loving, kind life, and yet is damned to hell because they used a condom decades earlier.

(4) My examples notwithstanding, to be Catholic requires one to believe that non-Catholics are destined for hell, regardless of their behavior or beliefs. Since the number of non-catholics outnumber the number of catholics by a large margin, it therefore requires you toe believe that your God has created a system in which, as previously stated,

(5) I have committed many acts that catholicism considers a mortal sin. I’ve used condoms. I’ve fornicated. I’ve even committed adultery as your church defines it, though my wife and I do not consider our actions as adulterous. And yet despite my sexual sins, I’m basically a good guy.

(6) I don’t harm people, I don’t kill people, and I damn sure don’t rape people. Most folks that I interact with consider me to be a good guy, and I have a LOT of friends, for whom I do good things.

But despite the fact that I am good and kind to people, because I look at the Jesus story and say, ‘Well, it just may not be accurate’ I am to be punished by eternal torture.

Statement (1) above is false, and any conclusion based on it are also likely false. The statistics you cite are not meaningful as a result.

Statement (2) above also if not necessarily true. Three conditions are required for a sin to be mortal, 1. Grave matter, 2. knowlegde of the gravity, and 3. full consent.

Statement (3) is false as it does not allow for the condition of perfect contrition.

Statement (4) is false. There no Church teaching that says this.

Statement (5) is evidence of self-deception. Nothing in the list of things listed are good. Labelling yourself good given these not good actions is false advertising.

Statement (6) is false because at minimum you harm yourself spiritually.

Does that seem like the act of a just, loving God?

Since nearly everything that you used as a basis for this conclusion are false, so is this conclusion.

 

[Seeker2010]

Maybe the 5-year-old stuck in your brain is just trying to keep the 40-year-old honest and motivated.

Perhaps, but therein lies the rub.

I would not associate myself with a human being who was so cruel as to punish others by cutting them up with razor blades and dunking them in alcohol, even if those being punished were criminals who deserve punishment of some kind, and the one doing the punishing was duly authorized to do so. If God is so cruel as to punish in such a manner, frankly I don’t want to associate with him either. Granted, the source of that frightening imagery is the imagination of a child and there is no real reason to think it might be the case, but I’ll bet a dollar to a hole in a doughnut that not a lot of folks chime in and say it’s impossible.

Even if I believe the right things and follow the rules in a sufficient enough manner to avoid said punishment for myself, knowing it was happening to others would be something I could not live with.

 

[Cristiano]

Perhaps, but therein lies the rub.

I would not associate myself with a human being who was so cruel as to punish others by cutting them up with razor blades and dunking them in alcohol, even if those being punished were criminals who deserve punishment of some kind, and the one doing the punishing was duly authorized to do so. If God is so cruel as to punish in such a manner, frankly I don’t want to associate with him either. Granted, the source of that frightening imagery is the imagination of a child and there is no real reason to think it might be the case, but I’ll bet a dollar to a hole in a doughnut that not a lot of folks chime in and say it’s impossible…

I can see your point. Maybe if you overcome some of your hesitations and read/study you will see that probably God is not the way you think of him. It sounds like you have an honest call to get closer to God, but you also carry a heavy baggage that you need to deal with. If you give yourself time, then you might see that some of that baggage is not about you or about God but about someone that did not know how to introduce you to God. A child imagination is guided by something happening in real life, I would not discount it at all and I also would not limit myself to it.

…Even if I believe the right things and follow the rules in a sufficient enough manner to avoid said punishment for myself, knowing it was happening to others would be something I could not live with.

There is nothing that you can do to ensure someone else salvation. You cannot feel guilty about it, even if it is extremely just that you will feel sorry for it. We have free will and we can choose to be with God or not. It is only our choice, no one’s else.
People could end up in hell because of the sin of despair, where they think that there is no way for them to be saved. That happens when you stop trusting in God’s mercy and justice. The first step is to remember that God wants us in heaven and that he will keep giving us any chance possible to convince us, even at the very last minute.

My suggestion is not to waste too much time here on this forum to develop your spirituality. I do not think that this is the right place. It is like trying to have an intimate relationship with your spouse in the middle of Times Square. Someone (only a few if you are lucky) is going to disturb you, frustrate you and probably make you resentful toward your spouse because of the urge that you have. My suggestion is to go to someone that you choose to trust and start asking questions.

We all need to learn how to walk before we can run. Do not worry too much about your salvation, just try to learn about God. Do not waste time with things like Papal Infallibility and other things that might sound really absurd, just pick up the Gospel of Mark and read it, the Gospel of Mathew and read it. Once you started go to the one person that you choose to trust and ask your first question. I would encourage you to pick a priest, one that gives you good vibes. At this point in time you have to look at the priest like you were purchasing a pair of new shoes, you need one that fits you.

Because of my background I have been in a situation that probably is similar to yours. Now as a Catholic I still have some issues with this kind of topic, not because of God’s power over me, but because I have very high expectations of myself and often I am not able to forgive myself when I err. I think that sometime I am just too prideful and that I assume to know more than God when it comes to my chances of salvation.

 

[momor]

The 40-year old rational me agrees with you, but the 5-year-old kid stuck in my brain who is afraid of an eternity of being cut by razor blades and subsequently dunked in alcohol raises doubts.

I am a cradle Catholic with 8 years of Catholic schooling and I have been in exactly the same place you are in now and not that long ago. I realized that my faith and understanding of God had not matured since grade school and it didn’t make sense to me as an adult. I never stopped believing but I was certainly confused and hostile about a number of things. I had to basically relearn my religion which I am still doing. My understanding of the nature of God is very different than it was and I’ve let go of a lot of the fear of going to hell and my anger at thinking that God hides the real goalposts for the gates of Heaven and then you die, oops, too bad, you guessed wrong, too late, you’re off to hell. A lot of our anger at God rests in our anger at adults in our childhood I think. It helped me to look at that.

I agree with what someone else said about not wasting time here on CAF if you are feeling confused about God. You are going to get all kinds of wierd stuff that has no basis in the truth of Catholicism or Christianity. Some of your former statements that have been refuted bear that out I think. I am not suggesting you accept the Catholic faith but if you are interested in what we believe you might be helped by attending an adult RCIA class at a local Catholic parish. These are classes that teach the basics of the Catholic faith to interested persons without any obligation to join the church and you have an opportunity to ask questions. New classes usually start in the fall and last until just before Easter.

Good luck on your faith journey.

 

[Moonstruck888]

Statement (5) is evidence of self-deception. Nothing in the list of things listed are good. Labelling yourself good given these not good actions is false advertising.

Anyone care to explain why wearing a condom or fornicating is wrong?

 

[JohnDamian]

Anyone care to explain why wearing a condom or fornicating is wrong?

Because sex for pleasure alone turns yourself and your partner(s) into objects for mere masturbation; it diminishes their and your humanity and dignity. Sex which is not within matrimony and open to procreation is just another word for mutual masturbation; which is deformed and distant from dignity.

 

[Moonstruck888]

Because sex for pleasure alone turns yourself and your partner(s) into objects for mere masturbation; it diminishes their and your humanity and dignity. Sex which is not within matrimony and open to procreation is just another word for mutual masturbation; which is deformed and distant from dignity.

Well, you’ve given my a very succinct illustration of precisely what it is I’m doing, but I don’t really see why it’s morally wrong, provided both parties are consensual?

Perhaps you could explain exactly why it is wrong, when both parties are experiencing pleasure?

 

[DysonSphere]

According to the CCC, (1035) …The cheif punishment of hell is eternal seperation from God…

People who choose to be seperate from God are seperate from God - I do not see how this could pose a problem for anyone.

What if someone, after 5 minutes in hell, changed his or her mind, and wanted to go to heaven?

Why would anyone choose to go to hell in the first place?

 

[davidv]

What if someone, after 5 minutes in hell, changed his or her mind, and wanted to go to heaven?

Not possible. The one in hell is so strongly anti-God they would never change their mind no matter how bad they were feeling about there circumstance.

Why would anyone choose to go to hell in the first place?

They prefer to go their own way rather than God’s way.

 

[JohnDamian]

Well, you’ve given my a very succinct illustration of precisely what it is I’m doing, but I don’t really see why it’s morally wrong, provided both parties are consensual?

Perhaps you could explain exactly why it is wrong, when both parties are experiencing pleasure?

Turning another human being into an object of sexual pleasure is dehumanising.

“Pleasure” certainly does not come into it, we could say fifty people having sex with a coma patient creates “pleasure” at no cost; but I doubt even you would say that is moral.

Consent however is a trickier one to deal with; think of it this way; if someone asked me to punch them - it would not make it moral for me to do so, even if I and they consented, the same is true to sex.

 

[Moonstruck888]

Turning another human being into an object of sexual pleasure is dehumanising.

What if that person takes pleasure from humiliation? You must be aware that is very common?

“Pleasure” certainly does not come into it, we could say fifty people having sex with a coma patient creates “pleasure” at no cost; but I doubt even you would say that is moral.

I would agree that is immoral since the party in the coma cannot consent to the activity.

Consent however is a trickier one to deal with; think of it this way; if someone asked me to punch them - it would not make it moral for me to do so, even if I and they consented, the same is true to sex.

I think that would depend why they wanted you to punch them.

 

[DysonSphere]

Not possible. The one in hell is so strongly anti-God they would never change their mind no matter how bad they were feeling about there circumstance.

They prefer to go their own way rather than God’s way.

Then I need not worry about hell. I’m very pro-God, and I know I would change my mind if I were to experience such a place.

 

[davidv]

Then I need not worry about hell. I’m very pro-God, and I know I would change my mind if I were to experience such a place.

If you are really pro-God, you will obey His commands, otherwise you are just deceiving yourself.

 

[DysonSphere]

If you are really pro-God, you will obey His commands, otherwise you are just deceiving yourself.

Then if I’m “deceiving myself”, as you say, I will change my mind once I find out. As far as I know, I’m obeying God’s commandments to the best of my abilities, most of the time. I certainly wouldn’t disobey any of God’s commandments forever.

 

[Betterave]

Then I need not worry about hell. I’m very pro-God, and I know I would change my mind if I were to experience such a place.

If you’re very pro-God, then you wouldn’t be there in the first place. (That’s just how it works.)

p.s. JohnD and Moon,
If you really want to hash out the fornication question, you should probably start a new thread.

 

[DysonSphere]

If you’re very pro-God, then you wouldn’t be there in the first place. (That’s just how it works.)

That’s great. Also, since I only know a couple people who call themselves “anti-God”, and doubt that they would desire to remain so forever, it is likely no one I know will be in hell.

It’s possible, in principle, that no one is in hell, and that hell may be an empty set.

 

[richardacombs]

Anyone care to explain why wearing a condom or fornicating is wrong?

Since you declare yourself an atheist, nothing. As St Paul said in 2 Corinthians, the Gospel to those that are perishing is nonsense, but to the faithful the Word of salvation.

If, on the other hand, you are open to rational discussion, the use of condoms or fornication counter basic commands of God. One was to “be fruitful and multiply” (Genesis 1:28)–that pretty well eliminates the use of birth control.

The second was given specifically to the first couple: “Wherefore a man shall leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they shall be two in one flesh.” (Genesis 2:24). Jesus completed this sentiment: “Therefore now they are not two, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder.” (Mark 10:8-9) Obviously, this divine command forbids fornication, adultery, even divorce.

Again, these are biblical injunctions and carry little weight with non-believers, but the fact that you have asked indicates some openess to discussion.

 

[Betterave]

That’s great. Also, since I only know a couple people who call themselves “anti-God”, and doubt that they would desire to remain so forever, it is likely no one I know will be in hell.

It’s possible, in principle, that no one is in hell, and that hell may be an empty set.

You’re quite right on your second claim. As to your first, it is not true that one must call oneself “anti-God” in order to effectivley be anti-God (it is even possible, in principle and in practice, to explicitly call oneself “pro-God” while effectively being anti-God).

 

[davidv]

That’s great. Also, since I only know a couple people who call themselves “anti-God”, and doubt that they would desire to remain so forever, it is likely no one I know will be in hell.

It’s possible, in principle, that no one is in hell, and that hell may be an empty set.

One is anti-God by demonstration, not self labelling.

 

[momor]

It’s possible, in principle, that no one is in hell, and that hell may be an empty set.