The Problem of Hell

[DavidKays]

If the will were fixed we would be incapable of love…

We will be only incapable of love if we are in a state of hell. After death the will is fixed. What the poster I believe means is that you are capable of loving with that fixed will but incapable of loving after death when you are in a state of hell. Look for instance at the Trinity. Their will is the same. The most beautiful thing you can say about the Trinity is that they have one will among themselves. There are not 3 seperates will but one. So in essence their will is fixed yet the Father loves the Son and the Son loves the Father, see what I mean. You are capable of loving and probabling doing a way better or more terrific job now that you are in heaven with a fixed will then you were on earth when you had a will that could changed. God Bless!

 

[fhansen]

We will be only incapable of love if we are in a state of hell. After death the will is fixed. What the poster I believe means is that you are capable of loving with that fixed will but incapable of loving after death when you are in a state of hell. Look for instance at the Trinity. Their will is the same. The most beautiful thing you can say about the Trinity is that they have one will among themselves. There are not 3 seperates will but one. So in essence their will is fixed yet the Father loves the Son and the Son loves the Father, see what I mean. You are capable of loving and probabling doing a way better or more terrific job now that you are in heaven with a fixed will then you were on earth when you had a will that could changed. God Bless!

I believe it might be correct to say that the will is fixed because we’ll will it to be so. IOW, our perfection-our complete justification-lies in our willing to love God because we’ve been perfected in our knowledge of Him, in our knowledge that that is the right and only thing worth doing.

 

[tonyrey]

We will be only incapable of love if we are in a state of hell. After death the will is fixed. What the poster I believe means is that you are capable of loving with that fixed will but incapable of loving after death when you are in a state of hell. Look for instance at the Trinity. Their will is the same. The most beautiful thing you can say about the Trinity is that they have one will among themselves. There are not 3 seperates will but one. So in essence their will is fixed yet the Father loves the Son and the Son loves the Father, see what I mean. You are capable of loving and probabling doing a way better or more terrific job now that you are in heaven with a fixed will then you were on earth when you had a will that could changed. God Bless!

If your will is fixed in every respect you cannot choose anything - which amounts to being a zombie…

 

[DavidKays]

If your will is fixed in every respect you cannot choose anything - which amounts to being a zombie…

Sir you do not understand do you? Why is the will fixed after death. Can’t you figure that out. You are not a zombie.OK. But can’t you figure why this is so? It’s so simple. You change alot while living on earth. Why? Because you have been sinning. Yes. Because you are repenting. Yes or hopefully you are. But after you die why will God want you to sin again? You see God has put limitations to sin and evil. They cannot be eternal that is you cannot be sinning forever and do evil forever. That is why the will becomes fixed after death. So that evil and sins cannot continue. Do you get the picture? If God permitted our wills to change after death then evil will continue eternally. But He has put limitations to it and the limitation is that after death you are not going to sin anymore. The will being fixed does not make you into a zombie. Now with that kind of reasoning then you can say that the angels are zombies too! So please understand that your fixed will is now the same property as what the angels have. They the angels love God. I am referring to the Holy Angels. It is impossible for them to fall. Same with us after we die. If you are happy after you have died and are in a State of Grace then you will be eternally happy and like the Holy Angels loving God forever. You cannot choose sin or evil after death. But you will always choose good. It now has been chosen for you and depending on your state of Grace will determine if you will be in Heaven or Hell. The previous poster actually has made an excellent comment on this and read it. It comes to the truth of why we are happy or why we will be sad. You cannot sin anymore after death. God has determined that evil will be limited to this earth while we are living on it. After we die then sin and evil is no more. Why? Because our wills are now fixed so that we cannot choose to sin. Now that is good news. And for eternity we will be happy to have chosen to do the will of God. Now does not that make sense! God Bless!

 

[tonyrey]

Sir you do not understand do you? Why is the will fixed after death. Can’t you figure that out. You are not a zombie.OK. But can’t you figure why this is so? It’s so simple. You change alot while living on earth. Why? Because you have been sinning. Yes. Because you are repenting. Yes or hopefully you are. But after you die why will God want you to sin again? You see God has put limitations to sin and evil. They cannot be eternal that is you cannot be sinning forever and do evil forever. That is why the will becomes fixed after death. So that evil and sins cannot continue. Do you get the picture? If God permitted our wills to change after death then evil will continue eternally. But He has put limitations to it and the limitation is that after death you are not going to sin anymore. The will being fixed does not make you into a zombie. Now with that kind of reasoning then you can say that the angels are zombies too! So please understand that your fixed will is now the same property as what the angels have. They the angels love God. I am referring to the Holy Angels. It is impossible for them to fall. Same with us after we die. If you are happy after you have died and are in a State of Grace then you will be eternally happy and like the Holy Angels loving God forever. You cannot choose sin or evil after death. But you will always choose good. It now has been chosen for you and depending on your state of Grace will determine if you will be in Heaven or Hell. The previous poster actually has made an excellent comment on this and read it. It comes to the truth of why we are happy or why we will be sad. You cannot sin anymore after death. God has determined that evil will be limited to this earth while we are living on it. After we die then sin and evil is no more. Why? Because our wills are now fixed so that we cannot choose to sin. Now that is good news. And for eternity we will be happy to have chosen to do the will of God. Now does not that make sense! God Bless!

It certainly does not make sense to say you will always choose **because **good has been chosen for you. You will choose good because that is what you choose. God has given us the power to decide for ourselves **not to compel us what to believe or do. Otherwise we would be predestined **for heaven or hell…

 

[DavidKays]

It certainly does not make sense to say you will always choose **because **good has been chosen for you. You will choose good because that is what you choose. God has given us the power to decide for ourselves **not to compel us what to believe or do. Otherwise we would be predestined **for heaven or hell…

What I say and what you are saying are 2 different things. You are probably right in what you are saying but I was just trying to make a point. I’m Orthodox and I do not usually try to get it right exactly like the Catholics. I find that the Catholics can get on you for every word you say. The Orthodox tend not to dwell like that. When I said good has been chosen for you please understand that God will give to you Final Grace to preserve you forever in His Grace. It is not just us. God also will grant you this Grace just as He did to preserve the Holy Angels once they decided for Him. You Catholics sure love to get into little arguements about words. I wish they will become Orthodox for awhile and see why we don’t do this. Anyway it is fun poking fun at you guys. I wish Catholics will come to see us more often in our Churches because you are a great bunch and we the Orthodox sure miss having you. You have a teaching in your Church which is the Doctrine of the Immaculate Conception which I believe in. I believe we receive this Grace after we die so as to preserve us forever. Mary received this Grace the moment she was conceived and cooperated fully towards it without wasting it. If we received it we will probably have wasted it so that God will have to renew it many times in us. So I think we receive it after death and because in this instance we will not waste it. Something has to be given to us to help preserve us and I believe this is the Grace that which God gives to us which is the fullness of the Holy Spirit. The Grace which actually preserves us is God Himself. This is what the Orthodox teaches especially from one of the greatest saints St.Seraphim of Russia. God Bless!

 

[fhansen]

What I say and what you are saying are 2 different things. You are probably right in what you are saying but I was just trying to make a point. I’m Orthodox and I do not usually try to get it right exactly like the Catholics. I find that the Catholics can get on you for every word you say. The Orthodox tend not to dwell like that. When I said good has been chosen for you please understand that God will give to you Final Grace to preserve you forever in His Grace. It is not just us. God also will grant you this Grace just as He did to preserve the Holy Angels once they decided for Him. You Catholics sure love to get into little arguements about words. I wish they will become Orthodox for awhile and see why we don’t do this. Anyway it is fun poking fun at you guys. I wish Catholics will come to see us more often in our Churches because you are a great bunch and we the Orthodox sure miss having you. You have a teaching in your Church which is the Doctrine of the Immaculate Conception which I believe in. I believe we receive this Grace after we die so as to preserve us forever. Mary received this Grace the moment she was conceived and cooperated fully towards it without wasting it. If we received it we will probably have wasted it so that God will have to renew it many times in us. So I think we receive it after death and because in this instance we will not waste it. Something has to be given to us to help preserve us and I believe this is the Grace that which God gives to us which is the fullness of the Holy Spirit. The Grace which actually preserves us is God Himself. This is what the Orthodox teaches especially from one of the greatest saints St.Seraphim of Russia. God Bless!

I think I understand this point better now. I didn’t realize it was an Orthodox teaching.

Even while on earth there’s a tension between Gods grace at work in us and our own wills. We must cooperate and yet He must help us do even that, without forcing the issue so much that we have nothing to do with it ourselves. In the final end, since we will always be created beings, lacking Gods uncreated perfection, we still should retain at least the possibility of falling again. Perhaps at that point our wills are 99% sold out to Him- knowing with certainty why we love and worship God-and He “fixes” the final percent. Just a thought.

BTW, we miss you guys, too, FWIW.

 

[DavidKays]

I think I understand this point better now. I didn’t realize it was an Orthodox teaching.

Even while on earth there’s a tension between Gods grace at work in us and our own wills. We must cooperate and yet He must help us do even that, without forcing the issue so much that we have nothing to do with it ourselves. In the final end, since we will always be created beings, lacking Gods uncreated perfection, we still should retain at least the possibility of falling again. Perhaps at that point our wills are 99% sold out to Him- knowing with certainty why we love and worship God-and He “fixes” the final percent. Just a thought.

BTW, we miss you guys, too, FWIW.

I think you have it. It does make sense in what you said. God needs our willingness and if we agree He does the rest. Great point you have written and I must say it is great that Orthodox and Catholics can dialogue like this. It is wonderful to get to know more Catholics each day and I will like you to know that this Orthodox appreciates and supports his Catholic brothers and sisters and the Church of Rome. Thank you for your (name removed by moderator)ut. God Bless!

 

[tonyrey]

I think you have it. It does make sense in what you said. God needs our willingness and if we agree He does the rest. Great point you have written and I must say it is great that Orthodox and Catholics can dialogue like this. It is wonderful to get to know more Catholics each day and I will like you to know that this Orthodox appreciates and supports his Catholic brothers and sisters and the Church of Rome. Thank you for your (name removed by moderator)ut. God Bless!

Yesterday we sang a motet in Russian by Arensky and were told we are to have a new parish priest who is very keen on the Orthodox liturgy. A delightful prospect!

 

[Dameedna]

But if the person continues to sin freely then there is a logical possibility that he would choose to stop sinning and repent. That is unless God has limited his freewill after he/she goes to hell.

The problem is not that a person would choose to exclude God, the problem is that a choice made in this one lifetime, is then rendered unchangable for eternity.

You think a God would be clever enough, to eventually bring all those that completely reject him(if he exists) back into the fold.

At the end of the day, God is 100% accountable, for every tiny bit of suffering, and every 'tortured" soul that is (supposedly) in Hell.

Makes him a bit of a monster, if you support traditional christian views.

 

[mangy_dog]

The problem is not that a person would choose to exclude God, the problem is that a choice made in this one lifetime, is then rendered unchangable for eternity.

You think a God would be clever enough, to eventually bring all those that completely reject him(if he exists) back into the fold.

At the end of the day, God is 100% accountable, for every tiny bit of suffering, and every 'tortured" soul that is (supposedly) in Hell.

Makes him a bit of a monster, if you support traditional christian views.

In reading through some of these threads, I am reminded of a song by Blood, Sweat and Tears, “…I swear there ain’t no heaven but I pray there ain’t no hell…”

You all make flaky speculations about God’s divine mercy and divine justice. How God “can’t do this thing” or “God wouldn’t do this other thing”.

I hope and pray that your B,S & T philosophy doesn’t catch up with you all and that it turns out to be another in a long list of “famous last words”.

Gospa Mir ora pro nobis

 

[aperture]

In reading through some of these threads, I am reminded of a song by Blood, Sweat and Tears, “…I swear there ain’t no heaven but I pray there ain’t no hell…”

You all make flaky speculations about God’s divine mercy and divine justice. How God “can’t do this thing” or “God wouldn’t do this other thing”.

I hope and pray that your B,S & T philosophy doesn’t catch up with you all and that it turns out to be another in a long list of “famous last words”.

Gospa Mir ora pro nobis

You’re right, God hates to be tested, even logically. Wonderful.

 

[Abbax8]

The problem is not that a person would choose to exclude God, the problem is that a choice made in this one lifetime, is then rendered unchangable for eternity.

You think a God would be clever enough, to eventually bring all those that completely reject him(if he exists) back into the fold.

At the end of the day, God is 100% accountable, for every tiny bit of suffering, and every 'tortured" soul that is (supposedly) in Hell.

Makes him a bit of a monster, if you support traditional christian views.

This is my take on this:

God does not require us to be perfect because he knows we are not perfected yet. He requires us to strive for perfection, to want to be perfect as he is, to ask for His grace so we may be perfect.

We can choose to do God’s will yet still do wrong. That is part of the human condition. When this happens, we need to ask forgiveness and if we are truly sorry God forgives us, as many times as we need forgiven.

Buy if a soul decides it enjoys the pleasures of sin and is not really sorry, then it separates itself further and further from God until the soul no longer wants to be with God. Such a soul ends up in hell, it is its choice, not God’s fault.

Dennis

 

[slywakka250]

Buy if a soul decides it enjoys the pleasures of sin and is not really sorry, then it separates itself further and further from God until the soul no longer wants to be with God. Such a soul ends up in hell, it is its choice, not God’s fault.

Dennis

What bothers me here is that many people do what is pleasurable, and they are quite content with their God-less existence. They die, and then WHAM. Eternal torture!. They are completely shocked at the realization as the flames start to torture them. Many didn’t even believe in God, much less did they believe in hell.

 

[Windfish]

I have not ever, not even when I was a child, questioned the notion of hell. If you assault some guy on the street, you are going to get jail time. But if that guy turns out to be a judge, you are in deeper trouble!

If you sin, you are sinning against the Most High, who is infinitely good and pure beyond your imagining. Ponder that when you sin. I have heard it described from one of the saints that, in hell, you will see how your sins grievously offended this infinitely good and pure God, and you will weep in sorrow, and that will be your pain.

 

[Moontown_Rabbit]

What bothers me here is that many people do what is pleasurable, and they are quite content with their God-less existence. They die, and then WHAM. Eternal torture!. They are completely shocked at the realization as the flames start to torture them. Many didn’t even believe in God, much less did they believe in hell.

I’m not sure if you have heard of St. Faustina, but she is becoming a very popular saint these days. Her diary is all about divine mercy, but there is one unusual passage in it in which she describes a vision of hell that she received. There are a number of details, but the one that stuck me was her discovery that the majority of the souls in hell did not believe in hell during their earthly lives.

 

[Betterave]

The problem is not that a person would choose to exclude God, the problem is that a choice made in this one lifetime, is then rendered unchangable for eternity.

You think a God would be clever enough, to eventually bring all those that completely reject him(if he exists) back into the fold.

At the end of the day, God is 100% accountable, for every tiny bit of suffering, and every 'tortured" soul that is (supposedly) in Hell.

Makes him a bit of a monster, if you support traditional christian views.

Horses are quadrupeds, the Earth is a planet, and God (along with hell and every tiny bit of suffering it entails) is just (and much more ‘clever’ than Dameedna)… if you support traditional Christian views.

 

[Abbax8]

What bothers me here is that many people do what is pleasurable, and they are quite content with their God-less existence. They die, and then WHAM. Eternal torture!. They are completely shocked at the realization as the flames start to torture them. Many didn’t even believe in God, much less did they believe in hell.

Which requires discussion of the question WHY they did not believe in God or heaven or hell.

I find it truly astounding that any person living in the world where there is TV, Internet etc. will not at least have heard of God and Hell. Most of the popular Anime and Manga entertainment these days deals with demons, Zombies and the Occult.

The idea of a god and heaven and hell is ancient in human origins, long before mass communication, indeed man seems wired to believe in God and Life after death.

I can believe that some people are defiant and choose to not believe in God and in His teachings because they get in the way of their lifestyle. This however is not the same as being invincibly ignorant about God and His teachings.

Actions have consequences. In Catholicism, one of the Spiritual Works of Mercy is to educate the ignorant for their eventual salvation.

Sr. Faustina was mentioned above. Her writings detail the infinite Mercies God provides to persons who make any attempt to reconcile themselves. It states explicitly, enter now through the gate of My Mercy or later try to enter through the gate of My Justice.

Scary thought or Wonderful Gift.

Dennis

 

[fisherman_carl]

Is not repentance itself a gift from God? In other words God’s grace moves us to repentance. Scripture says love brings us to repentance. If we reject that love how can we repent? In hell there can be no repentance if God’s love is not present. In hell one is literally stuck in ice, unable to get out to the warm sun, and the sun unable to penetrate the ice.

 

[Abbax8]

All prayer is first a calling from God to us. Every time we pray, no matter how we pray, it is first God reaching out to us, and this is a grace.

When we ask God if he is there, it is His calling us to Him first.

When we ask God for forgiveness, it is His calling us to Him first.

When we thank God for His help, it is His calling us to Him first.

When we praise God for who He is, it is His calling us to Him first.

God continually calls to us, offers us His love, His forgiveness, His grace. We merely have to say yes to His offers of help and even here He gives us the grace to say yes.

As Jesus told Faustina, He is everything and we are Nothing, yet we must remember that Christ died for each and everyone of us nothings.

Totally Amazing (Grace)!

Dennis