The Problem of Hell

[fhansen]

I’ll try again. It takes me time to think these things through. I’ll start with your premise.

1. God has created the nature of man such as to make sinning(and choosing hell) easy.

If anyone(or large numbers) go to hell, this premise must be true.

1. If God has created the nature of man such as to make sinning easy, then God has created the conditions by which eternal torture of some is unavoidable.

this is obvious as well if we take easy to mean easy as in commonly practiced, at least by one person.

1. It is unjust to create the conditions by which eternal torture of some is unavoidable.

I do not mean here to say that eternal torture is not a just punishment.

God created all of the conditions for man’s existence.First, God created the material world and engineered man’s senses so that he could see, hear, touch, smell, and taste. He created all of nature for man to behold and to enjoy. Second, God created man’s reason, and all the operations of his mind, his ability to form judgments between right and wrong, his intuition, and all the desires of man’s heart.

Finally, God created man’s free will, such that he knows exactly how man’s free will works. God created the process of man’s free will, such that he knows the intricacy of it, what will make it choose one thing, and what will make it choose another. So much so that he knows everything we will freely choose before we freely choose it. While our choices may be our responsibility, we can only exercise our responsibility within the conditions which God has set. The conditions are utterly immutable, as God is unchanging.

It would be unjust if these conditions were such that some men would necessarily choose hell. You see, God can have us retain our free will, but still create conditions of exercising it where it is absolutely certain that at least one will choose hell.

If this is the case, then God has effectively damned that one person, who ever he is to hell, my creating a universe with unfavorable conditions. While God may attempt to skirt the issue by saying the man freely choose his fiery fate, the blame still rests with God for creating conditions that necessitated the doom of this one man, so God is fully to blame as the efficient cause of the doom of this one man.

What if,

1. existence is an undeniable good.
2. some would prefer to exist, but sans God-and the definition of hell is that very thing- existence apart from God.

 

[slywakka250]

What if,

1. existence is an undeniable good.
2. some would prefer to exist, but sans God-and the definition of hell is that very thing- existence apart from God.

would you prefer to exist without God? would anyone really prefer eternal torture?

You may prefer not following God on earth, but who will truly prefer eternal torture??

are heaven and hell equal in their own way such that those in each are indifferent to the possibility of having been in the other?? or do the saved praise God for the fact they are saved? if they do praise God for the fact that they are saved, do the damned also praise God for the fact that they are damned?? it seems they should if your (2) is true, since is truly what they prefer.

 

[Betterave]

OK, so if God created the conditions by which justice would be carried out, this would be a good thing. This seems to be what you are saying.

But my assertion is that God created the conditions not merely for perfect justice to be carried out, but the conditions by which one person necessarily has just punishment applied to himself. He could have created conditions where the just punishment of eternal torture could have been avoided for all, but he he did not. how can we say it is just if he set the game so that one person must go to hell???

Obviously you’re not going to like this, but it is just because that person must go to hell as a just penalty for its freely chosen rejection of God.

if you say that no one must go to hell, that we all have a choice, I answer back that you only have a choice in the way God designed your free will to operate, and the conditions placed on the action of your free will, make it necessary that one or more go to hell! (if it is indeed the case that one goes to hell)

Your complaint here seems to be that we are free to choose, but that’s not good enough: we should further be free to choose the conditions of our free choosing (i.e., so as to make these conditions ‘easy’ ones - which we already are to some extent, but you think it should also be ‘easy’ to choose to make the conditions of our choosing ‘easy’ - ya follow? ). Correct?

 

[slywakka250]

Obviously you’re not going to like this, but it is just because that person must go to hell as a just penalty for its freely chosen rejection of God.

Your complaint here seems to be that we are free to choose, but that’s not good enough: we should further be free to choose the conditions of our free choosing (i.e., so as to make these conditions ‘easy’ ones - which we already are to some extent, but you think it should also be ‘easy’ to choose to make the conditions of our choosing ‘easy’ - ya follow? ). Correct?

Well yes I’m no, I’m kind of throwing around a couple ideas.

I guess my primary argument here is making an attack on free will.

I question whether or not we really have free will to choose hell, based on the fact that God created our free will, and knows how it operates.

God knows precisely what temptations would lead certain men to choose hell, and yet he still put this system in place. Can we really say that everyone without exception has free will, if it could not be otherwise that free will will operate in each man precisely within the limits and conditions God placed it in, these limits and conditions being such that at least one would choose hell??

God is way to implicated in the fate of our one damned soul, given that he created so many many men, each with his own free will, without some sort of quality control, to make sure that no one had to suffer such an awful fate as eternal pain. Surely God could have done better than this! he’s supposed to be loving and all powerful!

 

[Betterave]

Well yes I’m no, I’m kind of throwing around a couple ideas.

I guess my primary argument here is making an attack on free will.

I question whether or not we really have free will to choose hell, based on the fact that God created our free will, and knows how it operates.

God knows precisely what temptations would lead certain men to choose hell, and yet he still put this system in place. Can we really say that everyone without exception has free will, if it could not be otherwise that free will will operate in each man precisely within the limits and conditions God placed it in, these limits and conditions being such that at least one would choose hell??

God is way to implicated in the fate of our one damned soul, given that he created so many many men, each with his own free will, without some sort of quality control, to make sure that no one had to suffer such an awful fate as eternal pain. Surely God could have done better than this! he’s supposed to be loving and all powerful!

I think you have some good insights here into the root of the problem. You could grant that God made it difficult for us to succeed, as long as no one actually failed. But once people start failing you can no longer accept that they deserved to fail because of themselves - if they fail, then they must have been set up to fail. On the other hand, if they pass, they must have been set up to pass - and you believe that God should have set it up so that everyone was guaranteed a pass, eliminating the real possibility of free non-performance, so that all of the apparent difficulty (and rather dire warnings about it) involved in us creatures freely choosing to become ‘like God’ would in the end turn out to be illusory. Now the question is: do you have any reason to accept that all of the difficulty is in fact illusory? It could be, many people believe this; but do you have any reason for assuming that it actually is? And do such reasons outweigh the reasons for assuming that it is not?