The Problem of Miracles

[Marc_Anthony]

Something just occurred me that I thought I should mention.

When Christians are asked about the Muslim faith, I generally hear two answers from them:

1. Muhammed made up the religion to gain power.
2. The devil came down disguised as the angel Gabriel and taught Muhammed Islam.

Whever I ask Protestants about the Fatima apparitions and miracles, the answer I generally get is that they were false apparitions planted by the devil.

Do you see the problem here yet? I’ll explain.

If we accept that the devil can indeed disguise himself as an angel, and that the devil can in fact influence the physical world (excorcisms are proof of this) how then do we have any proof that any miracles are really true?

For example, how do we know that it was the devil, and not the angel Gabriel, that appeared to Muhammed? And how do we know that it was the angel Gabriel, and not the devl, that appearedto Mary and Joseph in dreams?

How do we know that the miracles supposedly formed by Jesus were not performed by demons, if we accept that demons have the power to fool us. In the case of Fatima, how can we be sure that it was indeed Mary, nd not a devil disguised as Mary, that appeared to the shepherd children?

 

[vz71]

Do you see the problem here yet? I’ll explain.

If we accept that the devil can indeed disguise himself as an angel, and that the devil can in fact influence the physical world (excorcisms are proof of this) how then do we have any proof that any miracles are really true?

For example, how do we know that it was the devil, and not the angel Gabriel, that appeared to Muhammed? And how do we know that it was the angel Gabriel, and not the devl, that appearedto Mary and Joseph in dreams?

How do we know that the miracles supposedly formed by Jesus were not performed by demons, if we accept that demons have the power to fool us. In the case of Fatima, how can we be sure that it was indeed Mary, nd not a devil disguised as Mary, that appeared to the shepherd children?

We cannot know for ourselves.
It is a good thing we have God’s church in place to analyze these miracles for us and let us know what is and is not of God.

Of course, other faiths can say the same thing relative to their own church. But inevitably there will be a contradiction somewhere along the way that will start the house of cards falling.

 

[Prodigal_Son]

Jesus gave us the answer: “By their fruits you will know the false prophets.”

 

[dailey]

I have an aunt who converted to JW from Catholic. She always says it was the devil who preformed the Fatima miracles. My answer has always been why would the devil do something that brought so many people closer to Jesus through Mary?

Jesus gave us the answer: “By their fruits you will know the false prophets.”

Are you able to elaborate on this quote? I would love to hear more about it!

 

[Earnest_Bunbury]

Yes, we have the Church and the fruits of the true prophets of those we see as sent by God, but we also have the Spirit of God ourselves if we are in the state of Grace. This comes from desire to do the Will of the Father. It is a living faith from God, it is Sanctifying Grace.

We must work at that faith. As in the letters to the faithful from the bishops that in the Bible such as 1 and 2 Peter, 1,2,and 3 John, James, etc., the encyclicals of the Church also transmit the Word of God. Do all of us on this forum read the encyclicals of the Holy Father? There are fourteen by John Paul II and 3 by the current pope.

Union with God comes through prayer, both personal and liturgical. This union with the Trinity through the Holy Spirit in us gives us the three theological virtues, Faith, Hope, and Charity along with the Gifts and Fruits of the Holy Spirit. Through this we have trust in Jesus and with abandonment to the Providence of God we have the equanimity needed to allow Jesus to make His abode in us.

The gift of miracles is of a lesser order than the gift of Sanctifying Grace. Work on gaining and keeping Sanctifying Grace and God will not allow you to be lead astray.

 

[Deefraz]

I must wonder why the devil would have done such deeds if nothing evil came from them? Instead, the most beautiful sacrifices were made by the children, in their self-giving, lives of prayer, and the lasting impression they made on others to do the same. I think the devil would have tried even harder in future apparitions to change the good that initiated from them. In this instance it seems the simple truth of repentance and recitation of the rosary became known, and the devil has done everything he can since then to make people question its authenticity.

 

[Garyjohn2]

We’ll know them by their fruits.

Matthew 7:20

Well, also know the context of the verse to get the full meaning.

15
“Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but underneath are ravenous wolves.
16
By their fruits you will know them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles?
17
Just so, every good tree bears good fruit, and a rotten tree bears bad fruit.
18
A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a rotten tree bear good fruit.
19
Every tree that does not bear good fruit will be cut down and thrown into the fire.
20
So by their fruits you will know them.”

 

[Katholish]

The devil cannot perform miracles. An appearance is not a miracle. If the devil appeared to Mohommed, that would not be a miracle, but simply an apparition.

Think about the story of Elijah and the priests of Baal, both calling upon fire from above to consume their sacrifices. The false gods (whom are generally recognized as demons in the Catholic tradition) were not able to control the elements.

When Moses challenged Pharoah’s magicians, they could perform tricks, but not miracles. (I think it is still unclear how the staff to snake trick worked, but the sacred text doesn’t seem to imply that they actually created life from inanimate matter.)

At Fatima, there was not only an apparition of Our Lady, but a miracle witnessed by hundreds/thousands and affirmed by the secular press.

Remember also that a miracle is not just an unexplained phenomena, but one that is done in the name of, and as proof of, some causal power.

 

[po18guy]

Jesus gave us the answer: “By their fruits you will know the false prophets.”

Amen! While only God can judge, we are called to be “fruit inspectors” (credit to CAF member padrej).

 

[vz71]

The devil cannot perform miracles.

While I may agree with this in concept, I believe it may be worth adding that unexplained events are not necessarily miracles.

The devil has a full range of actions available that may well look like miracles and likewise may not be explicable with our current understanding of science and technology.
But that does not make any given action a miracle, just unexplained.

Only God can perform actions that are truly miraculous.

The church has been equiped by God to handle the monumental task of discerning the unexplained from the miraculous.

 

[po18guy]

While I may agree with this in concept, I believe it may be worth adding that unexplained events are not necessarily miracles.

The devil has a full range of actions available that may well look like miracles and likewise may not be explicable with our current understanding of science and technology.
But that does not make any given action a miracle, just unexplained.

Only God can perform actions that are truly miraculous.

The church has been equiped by God to handle the monumental task of discerning the unexplained from the miraculous.

The devil has only lies and deception at his disposal. Thus, he uses appearances, but not substance, to accomplish his aims. And this points to the problem, which is actually in the non-Catholic field: they do not have demonstrable miracles. Rather than miracles in Catholicism being the problem, a lack of miracles in other faith traditions is the actual problem.

Also, true miracles, accomplished through the power of the Holy Spirit, always lead to unity in the Body of Christ. Whatever produces division is, by definition, of the demon.

 

[Marc_Anthony]

The devil cannot perform miracles. An appearance is not a miracle. If the devil appeared to Mohommed, that would not be a miracle, but simply an apparition.

Think about the story of Elijah and the priests of Baal, both calling upon fire from above to consume their sacrifices. The false gods (whom are generally recognized as demons in the Catholic tradition) were not able to control the elements.

When Moses challenged Pharoah’s magicians, they could perform tricks, but not miracles. (I think it is still unclear how the staff to snake trick worked, but the sacred text doesn’t seem to imply that they actually created life from inanimate matter.)

At Fatima, there was not only an apparition of Our Lady, but a miracle witnessed by hundreds/thousands and affirmed by the secular press.

Remember also that a miracle is not just an unexplained phenomena, but one that is done in the name of, and as proof of, some causal power.

But we know, thanks to excorcisms, that the devil and demons can manipulate the physical world.

We also know that they can cause visions, which means they can make people see things that aren’t really there.

You see where I’m going with this?

Jesus gave us the answer, but on the other hand wouldn’t a Muslim give us the same answer about Jesus, roughly, that we give about Muhammed?

They would claim that if Jesus is teaching us things that aren’t in the Quran, then he must be possessed by the devil

How do we know they’re wrong?

This seems to me to be a problem we have-drawing conclusions about a world that we can’t truly understand.

 

[fhansen]

Anything that produces or increases faith, hope, and love for God is certainly not of the devil. Why would he want us to embrace goodness itself-kinda counterproductive, wouldn’tcha think?

 

[Marc_Anthony]

Anything that produces or increases faith, hope, and love for God is certainly not of the devil. Why would he want us to embrace goodness itself-kinda counterproductive, wouldn’tcha think?

Ah, but what religion?

Certainly WE think if it increases our faith, hope, and love for the Trinity, it can’t be of the devil. But Islam would say exactly the same thing about their religion.

 

[scottm]

But we know, thanks to excorcisms, that the devil and demons can manipulate the physical world.

We also know that they can cause visions, which means they can make people see things that aren’t really there.

You see where I’m going with this?

Jesus gave us the answer, but on the other hand wouldn’t a Muslim give us the same answer about Jesus, roughly, that we give about Muhammed?

They would claim that if Jesus is teaching us things that aren’t in the Quran, then he must be possessed by the devil

How do we know they’re wrong?

This seems to me to be a problem we have-drawing conclusions about a world that we can’t truly understand.

I don’t think a Moslem would say that about Jesus. Moslems highly revere Jesus as a prophet of God. There is more in the Koran about Mary than there is in the Bible, and there is a lot about Jesus. According to the Koran Mary was a virgin who miraculously gave birth to Jesus. God caused this to happen. According to the Koran Jesus was a mighty prophet of God. He preached “the gospel.” He is alive in heaven right now, and some day he will come back to judge the earth.

Any discrepancies between the preaching of Jesus as recorded in the Bible versus the Koran would more likely be attributed to errors in the Bible. However, back to your question of knowing what apparitions are of God and what are of the devil — there need not be any contradiction between Islam and Christianity. The Koran reads like the Bible. Almost every passage in it matches up with the Bible. There are only a couple or three passages that on their face make one pause. That’s all. Those two or three passages CAN BE reconciled with the Bible through the same process that we, as Christians, reconcile seemingly-contradictory passages in the Bible.

In other words, as Christians we are very familiar with the problem of two Bible verses that seem to be contradictory. We have methods for dealing with this. We can take those same methods and deal with the passages between the Bible and the Koran that seem to be contradictory. Now the two religions have reconciled. The message Mohammad received is a Christian message now.

I’m not familiar with the messages of Fatima, so I can’t say anything about it.

 

[fhansen]

Ah, but what religion?

Certainly WE think if it increases our faith, hope, and love for the Trinity, it can’t be of the devil. But Islam would say exactly the same thing about their religion.

You’re right, ultimately it comes down to our opinion. And I’ve come to believe in love-that it alone makes life worth living-and gives worth to all things as St Teresa said. So, I guess I’ll have to go with the religion I think best points me in that direction and best helps me towards that goal-to love, far as I have to go. And if you think of it, what else could be worth living-or dying-for?

 

[Pieman333272]

For the question on Mary and Joseph and Jesus’ Miracles:

[BIBLEDRB]Matthew 12:24-28[/BIBLEDRB]

As for Fatima, that doesn’t make a whole lot of sense to me. I understand that he may have done that, but Mary, as she appeared, told them to pray the rosary and live a life of worship, and told them to make Russia into a Catholic place. So, I would doubt that. The only way is if the third secret is not completely revealed (which I don’t believe), which could shed some light on this. But, it could shed some light on a lot, according to most people, so, I don’t think so. As for Muhammad, well… I’ll get back to you on that in the afterlife .

 

[Katholish]

Marc Anthony,

But we know, thanks to excorcisms, that the devil and demons can manipulate the physical world.

We also know that they can cause visions, which means they can make people see things that aren’t really there.

You see where I’m going with this?

ummm… you seem to be taking for granted that demons can produce the same kind of physical realities as miracles and citing “we know from exorcisms”. We know no such thing.

As for demons having the ability to deceive, that is true, but it is not a deception of the senses, which remain fundamentally reliable. When demons try to manipulate our perceptions, it is generally done (if not always done) via the introduction of phatasms into our imagination. I cannot think of a singe historical example when a demon distorted sense data such that one was right to question if what they were seeing was real.

The devil appearing as an angel would not exactly be deception since in truth he has an angelic nature.

 

[Windfish]

Here’s the thing Marc Anthony, any critic or skeptic could resort to such incredulity when we present ANY evidence for our Catholic faith, miraculous or not.

Recently, this is one area that I am trying to explore more deeply. Others have their philosophical and historical arguments, and I think those are good, and I plan to learn more about them, but for my part, I am trying to fulfill this niche. Needless to say, I have found a lot of Church-investigated and approved miracles in a very short amount of time. It has been remarkable for me.

Anyway, with regards to this thread, the most you can do is take things on a case by case basis and show that people have no rational basis for attributing these miracles to demons, or even doubting them at all. That is the most any of us can do, and I think we should make our peace with that. The only other religion as far as I’m aware that can hold a candle next to the wildfire of Catholic miracles is Orthodox Christianity, but even then, there is no comparison. I have tried to find evidence of miracles in Islam, but no luck, yet.

 

[Christ_First]

The devil cannot perform miracles. An appearance is not a miracle. If the devil appeared to Mohommed, that would not be a miracle, but simply an apparition.

Think about the story of Elijah and the priests of Baal, both calling upon fire from above to consume their sacrifices. The false gods (whom are generally recognized as demons in the Catholic tradition) were not able to control the elements.

When Moses challenged Pharoah’s magicians, they could perform tricks, but not miracles. (I think it is still unclear how the staff to snake trick worked, but the sacred text doesn’t seem to imply that they actually created life from inanimate matter.)

At Fatima, there was not only an apparition of Our Lady, but a miracle witnessed by hundreds/thousands and affirmed by the secular press.

Remember also that a miracle is not just an unexplained phenomena, but one that is done in the name of, and as proof of, some causal power.

The Bible says otherwise. Satan can perform miracles. See Revelation 13:14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.

AND

Revelation 16:14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.

Please do not assume anything, but go to God’s Word. It is the only sure thing we have.